A letter to the editor of FHB

Mark Hunt

If a trade magazine doesn't publish a statistic, are we then to assume that there are no problems?

Tell me how many CO articles you have seen in "trade" magazines.

I haven't seen ANY, yet CO poisoning accounts for over 90% of the accidental poisonings in the USA.

Legionella is real, and ABSOLUTELY NO ONE in our industry tests for it, and MOST don't even know what the hell Legionella is. IT KILLS PEOPLE! You get that? DEAD!

So there are no "documented" cases of this caused by an open heating system. Well Ladidah! They NEVER tested for it, so how can you know?????????

This is a no brainer IMO. Dave has followed this issue, he has the science. Just because it doesn't make headlines doesn't mean it isn't true.

Mark H

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hr

The March issue of Fine Homebuilding

Has an article titled Energy Efficient from the Ground Up. I sent off this letter regarding the Radiantec designed system. With FHB's high readership, I think it wise readers understand to pros and cons of this type system. Feel free to POLITELY express your views.


"First off a big thanks to FHB for years of great articles and ideas. I have been a subscriber since issue one and look forward to new arrivals.

I applaud builder Al Rossetto's approach to small and energy efficient construction. Even more so his use of solar energy and radiant heat. I hope more builders take a look at this great technology.

Also his use of the HVR ventilator system makes lots of sense to provide the occupants a healthy environment.

With this in mind I would like to see the same reasoning applied to his radiant heat system. Combining a low temperature hydronic system, as his drawings seem to indicate, with a potable DHW system is risky, in my opinion.

As a long time radiant contractor and master plumber I have seen some "ugly" water drained from radiant systems that sit idle for periods of time.

Plumbing codes require that plumbers "protect the potability" of the buildings water system. This protects both the homeowner and any other building that may be connected to the same water distribution system. Backflow devices, vacuum breakers and avoidance of cross connections are part of the requirements listed in Plumbing Codebooks.

The parts and equipment to separate and isolate the two systems are simple and affordable. Not unlike the heat exchanger shown in this system to separate the solar glycol fluid from the DHW.

The Radiant Panel Association has recently adopted verbiage addressing Combined Systems in their Guidelines. Contact them for a copy of at www.radiantpanelassociation.org

Build 'em tight, efficient and always keep in mind the safety of the occupants. Thanks for listening Al and FHB "

Bob "hot rod" Rohr

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kevin coppinger_4

I saw the same thing....

in my issue yesterday. I was looking for the email address to send them a similar comment.It was funny that the house is built less than an hour away from the R company. Somethings were done well not the heat or hot water...the open system concept will continue unilt we as plumbers put our foot down and/or someone is killed. kpc

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mph

Combined Systems

HR,

As a fellow RPA WHAG contributor, you know my opinions on Radiantec and their "time-bomb" sytems. It's a shame that a magazine as highly regarded as FHB could be duped by these guys into giving them free advertising and propagating their myth of "significant savings in energy" through the use of these dangerous systems.

What's it going to take to stop Robert and his ilk? Somebody dieing? Let's hope not.

Jeff

Dave Yates (PAH)

But

The CIPH and our national code bodies have granted a green light to these types of systems. The RPA's stance is a middle of the road thing.

We are not micro-biologists and we do not have rock-solid proof that these systyems are dangerous to human health - so I've been told.

Show me the bodies.



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mph

Say it ain't so!

Dave,

Have you changed your position on combined systems? I thought you were agin 'em.

Jeff

Unknown

Radiantec Company Consumer literature

I just received a rather large envelope from Radiantec Company. Not sure how I got on their list. Any of you Wallies getting this junk mail too.

They are calling their "Pioneer Combined comfort System; the most innovative thinking in the radiant heating industry."

Well written, visually pleasing and extremely appealing (consumer friendly bait.) I laughed out loud (LOL ) when I read one of their FAQs. I quote; "At Radiantec we don't put a lot of stock in oxygen diffusion barriers, but if you decide that you really want one, we can provide it." Funny the don't want to sell barrier tubing. Must cost too much. Remember these are the bottom feeders of the radiant world.

Why would any self respecting contractor use these peoples system? Don't they care that their systems may cause health problems?

They're simplistic marketing approach makes radiant heating look WAAAAAAY TOO EASY. I find it humorous that they're looking for what they refer to as; "IPs" (Installation Partners) from plumbers, electricians and handymen. Any respectable plumber would NEVER install an open system. What's an electrician or a handyman messing with our drinking water supply anyway? "

Brilliant marketing. Lousy dangerous systems. But hey,,, They're cheap enough! Truly the bane of the industry.

Gary

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hr

Interesting post, Dave

with the whole world watching Wonder where we will see it next!

hot rod

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Dave Yates (PAH)

well

it's no fun when the shoe is on the other foot! Of course I'm against open systems - always will be. But the CIPH and major code bodies have granted open systems a green light. The RPA wouldn't take a firm stance against them either.

I have taken a lot of heat from many regarding my opinions and firm belief that open systems are deadly.

On more than one occasion you have posted similar statements.



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hr

You sound angry

as a "voice of the industry" you will recieve some heat! Both hydronic and FA types Comes with the territory.

The facts are the fact! I changed my opinion based on POTENTIAL issues, since based on past history, to date, there is no hard data supporting problems.

Since then I have paid more attention to systems I flush and the contents.

Here is a suspecious sample I recently flushed. While not a combined system this boiler did not have backflow protection. Looks worse in real life!

hot rod

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Dave Yates (PAH)

nope

I'm not angry, just immensely disappointed by this issue and the stubborn refusal of those who could so easily make a difference being indiferent to the dangers open systems can't help but present. Not that I didn't expect grief from the manufacturing, hydronics and FA side - it's the opposition by Master Plumbers and code bodies that grinds away at my spirit.

In another forum where a debate raged regarding open systems, I provided supported evidence and documents that resoundingly demonstrated the fact that open systems present a clear and present danger. The opposing side presented unsupported claims and did not once bring forth anything to refute my evidence. When I questioned one character about several of his wild-**** assertions and asked for proof, I was dressed down for cornering him. He was allowed to continue making ridiculous claims with impunity.

When I came forth with not one, but four bodies - that too was ignored. Although not connected to an open potable/hydronic system, they were all traced back to the potable hot water within residences. Adding hundreds of feet of tubing to a potable system via an open hydronic connection will serve as a super amplifier for dangers already present.

Marketing and money are winning the battle. The blow from CIPH stung the most. I had come to view them as being on the wiser side of many issues and while they did raise the temperature required for storage, they ignored the distribution system and points of use. When they determined that all combined systems had to be installed as open systems, I about fell off my chair.

I don't know about the internet companies, but round here companies like them tend to quickly go belly up when things turn sour. Then the owners, who were insulated anyway, are back in business the next day under another name.

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Chin Up Dave

Be patient, persistent and polite. It can be extremely difficult if not impossible to convince people of something that has potential for harm--even when plain common sense and science are on your side.

As soon as a SINGLE case of harm from such a system is proven the trial lawyers should see an avenue to enrich themselves and take care of the problem. Most unfortunate that it may well take multiple deaths or serious infection to do this... If water heater mfgrs. are found to be even the slightest bit "responsible" the damages sought will just be multipled to get the most from the deepest pockets.

Art Pittaway

Dead ends in the codes

I am not sure if or which of the plumbing codes cover max. length of capped "dead" pipe in potable systems, but it seems I read it one time. The last two houses I've bought had 10 and 20 foot lengths of dead pipe left behind by a lazy remodeler. No way to flush it, it just sits there and waits. How different are the loops of a hydronic system than a dead leg off a potable supply pipe. Seems like a matter of tag, not fluid. The one I removed from my current house was 20' of 1/2" iron pipe and when I dumped it, it was disgusting. The turnover makes the difference. If a Hydronic system could be flushed on a regular basis (every few days?) to clean the stagnent water out it might be ok, but the flow isn't strong enough. So, if a dead leg isn't prohibited, it should be, same for the radiant.

Art

Dave Yates (PAH)

and

that's the foundation for those who claim open systems are ok - timed cycles on the circulation. One deadly flaw in that so-called logic. Pumps and timers fail. No one will be the wiser until a lack of heating becomes evident. The potential for months-long stagnation is not an if but rather a when scenario.

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Dave Yates (PAH)

last month

I received an e-mail from a second year law student. She is doing research for a paper and came across my name in conjunction with her chosen subject regarding LD. Her paper is titled: "How lawyers will prosecute community acquired Legionellosis cases".

Imagine that - they're already studying how they will dissect the ones responsible in law school classes. She also posses a background in microbiology. So, they'll be ready and waiting when the bodies appear.


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Mike T., Swampeast MO

I liken that

to traps that have LONG been prohibited!

Nat'l Plumbing Code 5.3.6 -- Prohibited Traps

(a) No trap which depends for its seal upon the action of movable parts shall be used.

Again, not because it can fail, but because it WILL fail and you likely wouldn't know that failure had occurred!

Skippy

just a thought

I think that this part of the UPC would apply. 602.3 in the plumbing code states that "may become contaminated" not that it is contaminated. My only point is that as plumbers and water movers we are to provide safty to the public.

Art Pittaway

So it's not in the code?

A potable water system in a residence can be finished, inspected, approved and left with 10+ feet of dead end pipe capped off. If that is ok by code,...the code has a problem? Code mandates backflow devices to prevent cross connection and ignores a potential hydroponic garden? Just good economical piping practice says don't add pipe you don't need but it should also dictate removal of piping that is a unflushable. I flush my cold water hose bibs in the spring and think about the water sitting all winter. But, at least they can be flushed with 60+/- psi water pressure. Something new everyday.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

This entire thread...

...and your last post regarding personal injury study in anticipation of a problem are the worst indictment of the current state of our legal system I can imagine--from BOTH sides at the same time!!!

On one side you have people looking for a quick profit and feeling "safe" because no-one has been prosecuted or successfully sued. On the other you have another set of profit-hungry wolves just waiting for the problem to show itself so they can attack!!!

ARGGHH!!! Why on earth did we EVER allow lawyers and drug companies to advertise??? No good has ever or will ever come of either. What the hell is next? Doctors advertising to perform surgery BEFORE a problem occurs? I can see it now--surgeon in "greens" on TV saying, "Does your family have a history of breast cancer..."

hr

Have you noticed the latest batch of drug ads on TV?

Seen the one where the "arm chair quarterback" can't get the football through the swinging tire anymore? Then he takes drug XYZ, or whatever.

Next picture show him smiling, the wife is frolicking with him, big smiles, everyones happy and athletic.

Then the anouncer tell you to ask your doctor if XYZ is right for you.

Here's the key. IF they don't indicate what the drug is for, or that long complicated drug name, THEN they don't have to tell you the harmful side effects!

They no longer have to list sweating, rapid heartbeat, hairloss, lack of sex drive, bleeding around the eye sockets, kidney failure, weight gain, drowseyness, lack of appetite, heartburn, diarerra, short temper, etc, etc.

Pretty trickey of those drug manufactiures. Wonder who hatched that money maker Ask your doctor if it is right for you!

hot rod

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Mark J Strawcutter

the drug being advertised

is a competitor of viagra. Knowing that helps one understand the symbolism of throwing the football thru the tire, eh? :-)

Mark

Tim Gardner

what about aquasafe -- different issue?

I am a ho and am trying to understand this issue. I gather from this thread that there are new cheap systems which combine radiant heat and drinking water through the same pipes, and the issues are safety and maintenance vs economy.

I am considering having a Wirsbo aquasafe system for fire sprinklers installed. This system also uses the potable water lines for supplying the sprinklers. This sounds like a good idea to me primarily because I will know about problems in the sprinkler lines when my sink faucets don't work. But does this system suffer from the same problems you are talking about in this thread? That is, if it is a bad idea to combine radiant heat with drinking water, is it also bad to supply sprinklers with drinking water?

Thanks for helping me understand this.

coldupstairs

This is an interesting thread.

I suppose hot water borne contaminants could contaminate a faucet for subsequent cold water draws, although letting the cold run for a bit would probably flush the faucet out. Does anybody actually drink hot water from a faucet? I've never done it. Of course we bathe in it, but we also swim in ponds and lakes which are microbially more interesting.

Dave Yates (PAH)

aspiration

It's the aspiration of small sized water droplets into the lower 1/3 of the lungs that represents the pathway for Legionella bacteria.

Drinking legionella does not pose a known risk, although the same can't be said for many other water borne pathogens.

Showering is often thought to be the only distal site within the home, but faucet areators and flushing a water closet also emit micron-sized water droplets.

Amplification of Legionella becomes a concern with water temperatures below 133F. If you couple up the other favorable growth issues (stagnation, pH and biofilms), you've managed to create a perfect hydroponic bacteria growing amplifier. Open systems offer all four ingredients.


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Tim Gardner

we drink water hot from the tap

and even feed it to the kids! We used to make warm bottles by adding warm tapwater to formula. Still make hot chocolate by adding hot tap water to mix.

Terry H.

Dave another question

I've also wondered about the filter companies that make whole house carbon filters that are designed to remove the clorine from the water system. It seems to me that this would be a bad idea. What do you think?

Terry H.

Dave Yates (PAH)

not part of the LD issue

Chlorine is innefective against Legionella bacteria at concentrations found within potable water systems. If chlorine levels are raised to a point where it can begin to kill off the bacteria, the water becomes far too agressive for metal or plastic piping and combines with organic materials to form carcinogens.

Furthermore, as water is heated chlorine dissapates. That's one reason why we see more pitting in the hot water piping.

Pasteurization of hot water is quite effective for keeping the bacxteria numbers suppressed if the water temp is held above 133 F with a contact time of at least 20 minutes.

So much for the storage tank or source of hot water. Let's call that part #1 of a 3-piece puzzle. Part #2 is the distribution system or maze of piping. Part #3 of the system are the points of use (faucets).

If we are to have bacterial safety within the potable hot water system, all three must be treated.

Here's how that could work. Elevate the storage tank's temperature to 140 F minimum. Install a certified ASSE 1017 thermostatic mixing valve at the tank's outlet and set it for 133 F. Install a bronze circulator to move water through the distribution system 24/7. Part #3 of the puzzle comes next but we've got to bring scalding safety into the picture due to the elevated temperatures (which we had anyway as the current Z21.10.1 regulations allow for water temps of up to 190 F from stacking in residential water heaters of 75 gallons or less). We'll need to add certified ASSE 1016 scald guard faucets or devices at points of use where human contact occurs.

106 F is the human threshold for pain. 120 F, the current mantra for so-called safe water temps - is not. Third degree burns are still a reality and thousands of people continue to be scalded annually. If the delivery temp is limited to 110 F, actual safety for bathers begins. That's why old folks homes are limited to 105 - 110 F. But that's also why most test positive for Legionella bacteria.

There are three types of certified ASSE 1016 valves: pressure balancing; thermostatic; and the best of the three - thermostatic combined with pressure balancing. Pressure balancing valves are blind to seasonal temperature fluctuations (incoming water service temps can vary by as much as 50 F between winter and summer - also, if the homeowner runs out of hot water, their first reaction is to turn up the tank's thermostat, which changes the PB faucet's upper limit - who's to know?).

Scald guard faucets are readily available and if the codes would change to this new "standard", plumbing inspectors would be required to verify proper setting was performed by the installer. Safe hot water systems, safe bather temperatures and reduced liability for the water heater manufacturers, the plumbers and others involved (such as the supply houses).

The manufacturers of scald guard devices are ready willing and able. Why this common sense approach won't be recognized and adopted to promote the public's safety is beyond my understanding.

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PJO_5

If I may...

Dave would be better at answering this (along with other Wallies), but I have some personal experience here.

If you are worried about the storage of water in a HWH that has been de-chlorinated, then it is an issue, especially if you don't keep the temp. of that tank above 135F. Instead, get a point of use unit where it will be used ...under the kitchen sink. These are cheaper and why dechlorinate all the water?

Also, get a unit that has some sort of regeneration/backwash if you can...or make sure you change the filter when you should because you can build-up some "nasties" on it, and you could actually be in worse shape.

I agree with removing chlorine before it is ingested because it is there to get the water safely to you...compare it to wrapping a loaf of bread...and does not have to be taken into your body. Just do it right.

Just my opinion.

Great thread...

Take Care, PJO

Ken_8

Before we get too focussed...

Let's remember that dish sprayer hose that sits idly for months at a time - is a completely dead spot within the kitchen sink outlets.

Then too there's the dead spot where the not used in four months garden hose branch tubing sits, getting all funky with god knows what - until flowers get watered in summer...

Then too there's that basement shower branch potable water piping that hasn't been used since Dad worked at the foundry some 20 years ago...

The "dead zones of potable water are as numerous as ever. Copper pipe? Is that what's saving us from death by microbe? Or are we tilting at windmills?

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coldupstairs

The points on aerosolization are very good. I hadn't thought about that possibility. And now that I think about it, I can remember as a kid coming in from sledding outside on a cold day and drinking from the hot tap to warm up. The concerns about these systems are valid and worrisome.

Anyone know whether we should worry about indirect hot water tanks being contaminated by leaks of boiler water from the coil or outer tank heat exchanger into the inner tank? I have read warnings about using antifreeze in these systems...I assume because of the potential for leaks and cross-contamination.

Dave Yates (PAH)

low pressure goes to high

The coil within a boiler is high pressure potable and the coil within an indirect is typically the lower pressure hydronic fluid. In either case, a leak in the coil will overpressurize the hydronic side and cause the 30 lb relief valve to begin leaking. In most instances, potable water will flow into the hydronic water.

The exception is once again caused by aspiration. As the higher pressure fluid races past the crack/fissure/pin hole, the lower pressure can be drawn into the higher pressure zone.

Drinking hot water with cold teeth can cause a crack!

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Dave Yates (PAH)

The copper myth!

Greetings my short friend(G).

So, why ain't uncle Harry's basement dead-leg shower a big deal? Volume. Short dead legs will indeed breed bacteria if seeded. But, they also flush out quickly, which can minimize risk.

Hydronic systems, on the other hand, have volume. Horizontal tubing offers a nice bed for biofilms.

Copper tubing does not protect against LD. As the biofilm builds, a protective layer (or barrier) is built to shield the bugs.

So, while plastics initially offer a more hospitable environment, they both offer virtually identical conditions within a short period of time. Case in point - Hospital in Paris opens with brand new copper tubing in place - a number of patients die from LD that was breeding in the new lines.

Copper & silver ionization systems, on the other hand, offer eradication of Legionella with residual steralization - even in dead legs. All other methods of protection offer suppression, not eradication, of the bugs.

Exception!

For cold water service lines in buildings not yet colonized, ultrasonic bombardment upstream of ultraviolet steralization offers a 100% kill rate providing they are maintained and flow rates remain within specs. Turbidity can defeat the UV. The ultrasonic bombardment breaks up cysts of amoebae and other host that the Legionella use as a nursery, which leaves them exposed to the UV rays. The UV rays render them sterile & they can't reproduce.

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Brian

CIPH

Dave
I to am a radiant contractor in Canada (Southern Ontario to be specific).The Code concerning combo system states word for word is---Potable water may be used directly in the dual purpose water heater (combo unit)as the hydronic heating medium.
When a dual purpose water heater (combo unit)is directly connected to a hydronic distribution system, an automatic recycling system (if required by the authority having jurisdiction)shall be installed in the hydronic distribution system that will completely recycle the contents of the system at least once every seven days.
This would have been one of the major points in the entire code book.I doubt that it was taken lightly or without proper research.Although we do not sue people or companies at the drop of a hat like some, we are learning,just look at our insurance rates.I do not not see what they have to gain by not enforcing a heat exchanger.I due include a heat exchanger with my quotes that run off a water heater.But if the customer says that I need to cut $600.00 off my price then I will take out the heat exchanger and add a Grunfoss pump relay which will exercise the pump 5 min. every 24 hr. so it will meet the requirements of the code.

Brian

Dave Yates (PAH)

so

take a glass of water and sit it on the windowsill for seven days. You want to drink that seven day old stagnant water? Me neither, I want a freshly drawn glass & a bit of a run prior to filling the glass too.

Suppose you forget to drink it every seven days (read - pump or timer fails). Let it sit there for three months. Now - who wants to drink that three month old stagnant water. Walk down a hotel corridor in the AM & contemplate the "used" drinks left over & placed in the hallway for collection. You might as well drink from the toilet bowl! That's an open system too. Which begs the question - why all the fuss about ballcock valves being rated as anti-siphon? If it's ok to have an open potable/hydronic system, it should be ok to drink the contents from the water closet's open-system tank resevoir! (FYI - I favor anti-siphon ballcocks too.)

CIPH missed an opportunity to protect the health of the Canadian nation IMHO. So did the code bodies in this country, so you're not alone. Isn't it interesting that the plumbing codes in other countries outlaw open systems? When I visited ISH in Germany and the water treatment hall, they thought I was plying some kind of a sick and twisted joke when I detailed open systems to them. One guy lost his temper with me. They have long since acknowledged Legionella for the problem it is and don't beat around the bush where prevention is concerned. Wouldn't it be better if we got there before more lives were lost?

Close it up and isolate the fluids = safety - pure & simple.

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Brian

Devil's Advocate

Dave
When you go to cottage for a week in the summer when you get back do you flush all your water lines and drain your water heater.No you don't and neither do I or any one else on this site.I'm not saying there is'nt a chance but I think the odds are better that I'll get struck by lightning.Lord knows that the powers that be at CIPH are not perfect but like I wrote earlier,this would have been a hot topic when they wrote the code and I think they would have better access to studies concerning this than you or I.Also as I wrote before what do they have to gain by not enforcing exchangers.

Brian

Dave Yates (PAH)

That's

a damn good question! And yes, I do flush the lines.

Here's my questions:

If you add hundreds or even thousands of feet of hydronic tubing to a potable water system and grant the opportunity for stagnation, are you creating a potentially dangerous situation? Does the increased volume create potential problems due to the lengthy flushing required to void the system of all stagnant water?

Do the increased biofilms become a concern knowing that biofilms are a perfect breeding environment for rampant bacterial growth?

Does the fact that you've created a perfect Legionella breeding biosphere create a nagging doubt about the long-term safety of the system? If not, why not?

If you run all incoming water through the hydronic loops (yeah right - balancing flow becomes another issue between loops), will you create a pressure drop problem and, therefore, increase the risk associated with scalding?

If you can't see there is an increased risk to the end users, then by all means go ahead and install open systems. But I'd respectfully suggest you owe the consumer an opportunity to review the facts surrounding this issue and have them make an informed decision.

Free A/C? Well, there's this land in Florida for sale.............

Question authority - always.



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Brian

Reviewing facts

I'm sure you and I have read a lot of the same trade magazines over the years.I do not remember seeing anything other than speculation on the subject.Also think of all the 1000's of open systems that have been installed.If there had been any illness due these systems do you not think that there would be red flags going up all over the place.

Brian

leo g_71

in my part of BC

we still have to use an exchanger thank god! also the tank HAS to serve some plumbing fixture. hey brian, maybe you should look out west to see what a good heating association can do for you guys, both alberta and us have had one for some years now, and WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS!

leo

Brian

leo

Nothing would make me happier than an Ontario code.All you have to do is look at our plumbing code compared to the National one.
I also think you misunderstand me,I agree with the use of heat exchangers but I have yet to see any definitive studies linking open systems with illness.

Brian

leo g_71

the way of

north america seems to me to be a race to the bottom all to often. why does it seem that for most things healthwise, the euro's jump on things right away? could it be that our pols, like to have us always go for the lowest price?

2 years ago, in your province, 2 families were wiped off the face of the earth by CO poisining. it turns out someone had used instantaneous hot water makers for radiant heat. it was cheaper then installing a proper system. was it worth it?

leo

ScottMP

David

In regards to your system with three parts.

What you are describing is a total change to our typical plumbing system. While this would be the "total" system for protection, we both know the added cost and code changes will be a barrier to code changes.

I do feel that the elevated tank teperature is a huge step towards protection and would be simple to install. How about it ? A code change that calls for elevated tank temperature with an approved anit-scald/preasure balanced valve would go a long way towards protection.

You call for 133 tank temperature, is this high enough to stop breeding in the tank ? I believe I read one of your posts that addressed higher tank temperatures ?

As you've said, dead legs seems to be the worst and the constant flushing of the typical plumbing system lower the incedent of a breeding gound. So higher tank temps. should go a long way towards protection.

Some times baby steps give the most advances.

Thanks as allways for leading the charge, just don't get to frustrated. Who knows, maybe the head stone will say " He lead the way for code changes that protected the health of the nation ".

Scott

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