It's almost done....

Mark Eatherton1

attached. Now all I need to do is get a bus cable long enough to reach into my office so that I can monitor and graph every function of the system.

For those who didn't know, I've also included pictures of the system during its first conversion, second conversion and finally and hopefully the last conversion.

Guess you can probably tell by looking at the tank who the manufacturer is... So much for secrecy:-)

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Finishing touches...

are being applied to my new heating system as we speak. It is SOOOooo cool to see this puppy modulate up and down.

I'll post pictures as soon as the job site is clean enough to take a picture of. It looks like a freakin' disaster area right now.

Boy do I need an apprentice:0)

Thanks Heat Transfer. The lil Muncher is doing great!

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Lilly's first pictures...

I name her Lilly cause she such a cute Lil bugger.

You can see the gas meter, the hydronic flow meter, the prototype DHW/buffer tank and the DHW flow meter. I will have this thing so wired that if it hiccups, I'll see it.

For those new to the wall, this is the 2nd hydronic heating system in this house. The first system is depicted in the other photo.

Anyone on the market for a good, slighlty used 40 gallon water heater with a solenoid valve between the aquastat and the burner? I'll even throw in the tekmar control!

By next weekend, I'll be able to post some graphs of the thermal performace of this baby. Preliminary numbers are blowing me away...

Stay tuned and ask LOTS of questions.

ME

paul lessard_2

looks like you have a good system for that lil guy

I wonder about the prototype dhw/buffer? are you trying to make domestic with lower temps? did you change your system at all?
how much for the tekmar?how are ya? and thanks for setting up that coors thing! paul

Mark Eatherton1

The goal of the tank

is two fold.

1.) provide goodly amounts of DHW whilst keeping operating temperatures well below that of typical American systems.

and

2.) Provide an operational buffer tank to keep system from short cycling during periods of low demand.

Time will tell if it is going to be a success.

Glad you enjoyed your stay here in COlorado.

ME

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Question One

Any outside/inside HX cleaning requirement?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Question Two

Does it use an outdoor temperature sensor?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Question Two

Does it use an outdoor temperature sensor?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Question Three

Does it have a "trouble" or "default" mode in the event that the main brain fails?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Question Four

Does it sense changes in pressure as well as changes in temperature?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Question Four part 2

If it senses changes in pressure does it interpret a sudden decrease in delta-p as a "comfort request" of the occupant(s)?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Question Five

Does it have an internal bypass?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Question Two part 2

If it uses an outdoor temperature sensor can the user establish a MINIMUM curve? "Tweak" that curve based on INDOOR temperature data?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Question Two part 3

If it uses an indoor temperature sensor can the user establish a MINIMUM curve? "Tweak" that curve based on OUTDOOR temperature data?

Mark Eatherton1

Yes to OSA sensor

I've installed the Vision 1 kit which allows the control to see out side air temps. It also monitors DHW temps digitally, as opposed to just getting a switch closure.

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Absolutely!!

Theh heat exchanger on any condensing equipment will most probably require an annual cleaning at minimum. If it is in an area where it will see lots of suspended matter in the air, then it might require more frequent cleanings. Cleaning consist of spraying the fouled heat exchanger with a release agent, brushing the HX with a plastic or brass brush (no steel brushes allowed) wet vacuuming the HX, then rinsing the HX with clear water and confirming a clear drain. The annual cost of service should be more than recovered by the efficiency of the system over a conventional system.

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Tweaking the curve...

The Vision 1 contractor has access to the programmmable portion of the control This will allow him to set his starting OSA temp, and his starting boiler supply temps, his design OSA temp, and the boiler temp as design OSA temp.

OSA temps can be set between -49 and 95 deg F, and water temps of between 77 and 203 degrees F.

Pretty flexible if you ask me. I'm some what confused by the redundancy of your question, but can clarify with this statement. The system at present does not look at indoor temperatures other than looking for a thermostat switch closure. I do think it will be possible in the future though...

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Trouble or default mode.

I'm not aware of any default mode of operation. I'd have to defer to Jeff at HTP for an answer to that question. The control does however tell you why it is locked out, and with the proper tools (connect kit and lap top PC) you can see EVERY fault or blip on the radar screen of that appliance since the day it was powered up. I'm not aware of ANY other control with that depth of trouble shooting capabilities...

ME

Mark Eatherton1

By changes in pressure...

I assume you are speaking to differential pressures across the system. If so, no, it does not "read" those pressures. It does however, come with a low pressure cut out that works great! (personal experience speaking there)

With the system piped primary secondary, you'd need a whole bunch of pressure transducers to get an accurate read on system demand. System demand is directly reflected in differential temperature.

ME

Mark Eatherton1

No internal bypass.

None needed if properly piped. I piped my system differently than recommended by the factory because I am in control of the system flow rates and other critical parameters. If piped as directed by the factory in a primary/secondary consideration, bypass would be external to the boiler anyway.

What IS particularly interesting is to watch the delta T across the heat exchanger when its producing DHW as an example, then swithces back to doing space heat. The boiler temperatures drop like a ROCK. The response of the heat exchanger is almost instantaneous. I could sit in front of this thing (and most probably will) for HOURS just being amazed at the efficiency of the system as a whole. I think I found 8 different modulation ranges on the boiler while I was doing individual range testing. That in and of itself is simply amazing.

Unlike most American boilers, when this boiler starts out for a space heating call, it starts at the bottom of it's curve and works its way upwards. Most other logics go to the top of their capabilities and modulate downwards. Kill the load with a sledge hammer, then shut down...

This lil devil starts low and works its way up to meet the load. REAL efficient.

Conversely, on a call for DHW, it goes immediately to high fire and satisfies the call.

I'll be speaking to the chief engineer at the factory to see if it is possible to program the control to recognize drastic loads versus minor loads and fire accordingly.

Thanks for all your questions Mike, let me know if I missed anything!

ME

hot_rod

Dedicated gas meter?

Is that via the fuel company? Good way to track useage at the boiler are they accurate at low, low gas flow?

Still curious about that indirect. Three pipes in the top? Any other connections?

At ISH, I found a plastic (PE) tank manufacture that didn't cringe at 180- 200F temperatures. We'll see how that works out. Very inexpensive and light weight. I have a 600 gallon tank coming for my wood fired boiler.

hot rod

Mark Eatherton1

The meter

is made by the American Meter Co. Not 100% sure about low end accuracy. It's a model AM 250 with pulse reader.

The tank has a return to boiler tapping on the hydronic side on the bottom of the tank. It's essentially a reverse tank. The potable is running through the coil, and the boiler water is running through the tank. Haven't worked out all the specifics about application as a buffer/dhw tank yet. Good to see you at ISH. As usual, wish we could have spent more time together.

ME

paul lessard_2

8 ranges!!

could you confirm that? are you going to put the graph online?like that guy someone posted last week?

Unknown

That meter is accurate with

as low a flow as a gas pilot.

paul lessard_2

thanks for the help today Tim!!!

I appreciate it

Mark Eatherton1

There WILL be graphs...

I've got my Onset Hobo strapped all over this thing.

http://www.onsetcomp.com/Products/Products.html

ME

Unknown

Lap top

Connect your lap top with a connect kit?
WOW. Can you monitor the system remotely? Supprized to see anything but Buderus down there;-) Still dragging their feet on their condenser? How is Eric (the Red)?

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Wayco Wayne

Mark

Could you show a picture of the new piping diagram. I looked at it last week but it is gone from the thread. WW

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks Mark

Control systems always fascinate me and I just can't help thinking in therms of modulating emission devices as well as the modulating burner.

One burner modulation system allows an optional indoor temp sensor from which the system "learns" and modifies its own behavior. Modulating emitters are never really "satisfied" and the modulating devices can only provide feedback to the boiler indirectly through delta-t and delta-p.

The indoor feedback would seem to allow compensation for some less-than-ideal situations, say a system with different forms of emission devices, or a system where the emission device balance is significantly worse than idea.

With so much work in "indoor reset" by some was just curious where the boiler was "looking".

Almost everything can be done with indoor feedback alone--save compensation for rapid change in outdoor temp. Thus the question if it were primiarily indoor data driven if outdoor data could be added (if necessary) as well.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

At Wetstock I was absolutely told that the Vitodens has a "dumb" mode that can be selected in the event of trouble. It locks out the burner/circulator modulation and the burner runs in digital mode--but still with simple outdoor reset.

Was curious if this was incorporated here as well.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks again Mark

I really have no idea if ANY boiler is capable of this as the pressure differences involved are certain to be quite variable depending on the rest of the system.

Again, I just can't help but think proportionally anymore so please forgive me.

A digital system with multiple circulators/valves provides the boiler brain with data that can only be given indirectly through a proportional system via delta-t and delta-p.

Change in pressure (if accurately sensed) would provide a very good way in a proportional system to institute a "boost" in supply temp to provide response at the emitters to be as rapid as possible. I believe such would be difficult with delta-t alone.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Another Question

Does the "connect kit" imply that a computer can be set up for full- and real-time monitoring or is it a trouble-shooting tool only?

[Deleted User]

Eric the Red is fine...

will se him tomorrow at a burner setup seminar.

He who doesn't have a condensing boiler in his line up is not a whole person...

The world will pass you up if you don't grab it by the horns.

ME

munchkin-man

There are many good questions here

I will to print out the string so I can address them all in the order they have been asked. My printer here at home is out off ink so I will do this at the office tomorrow. I wil cover some of it now. I will say that the T50M is a five to one turn down and a 1:1 ratio of fuel to oxygen. This litle baby will modulate from 50,000 down to 10,000 btu's and at several btu rates durring the modulation stage bassed on return temp as Mark has seen durring his testing. The system, on a call for domestic will bring the blower motor to 100% duty cycle so as to close the air pressure sw. then will go to 70% duty for the light off ironization is achived and flame proven it goes right to 80,000 btu's to blast the indirect with high btu's at up to 185 degrees. The indirect mode allows one to program the run time from 0 to 60 minutes. This means that it will run as long as it takes to reach set point of the maximum amount of time that has been programed. If there is no call for central heat one could have programed a post purge in to the prioity mode so that the pump runs to clear the remaing heat in the munchkin coils from 0 to 5 minutes. At this point the central heat is allowed to come in. This starts at a very low fire and will climb in btu rate each minute for six minutes untill it reach's full rate unless the room temp reach's the thermostat set point and shuts down. This is the fraze hit the road with a sluge hammer that Mark mentioned comes in this allows the media to do its job at different temps if full rate is not needed. No override. Additionaly if the system went in to a flame failure lock out the central heat pump would start if the ambient temp reached 38* and the system will try to relight every hour and make three attempts. At any time durring this cycle the indirect falls below the programed differential it will drop out the central heat and go to the prioity mode. the priority and central heat work the programed time limit evenly and will alternate back and forth. The controll has port so one can plug in to a computer and moniter the controll activity as long as you have the heat transfer products program disc and special cable. You can get this buy attending a training class to be certified as a Vision 1 dealer. You will also get your name entered into our web page under contractors for all to choose from for installations and service. These are all a plus for you and get this, you get to coverse with our highly trained tech support department and of course me the one and only jeff cook Munchkin man. Good night. Mark great job looks good keep me updated I am excited.

Mark Eatherton1

What I can see from my computer...

will blow you away. Okay, I cheated and spliced in an extra 30 feet of cable so I could plug my desk top PC into the onboard computer, but hey, it's my laboratory.

Mike Thies wanted to know if I could see real trime or if I could only review history. I can do both. Here's a section of the graph feature. This is the unit coming off of a DHW call and settling back to space heating mode.

I've not seen this feature on any of the German boilers I work on. American ingenuity at its finest!

Back to watching my boiler from my desk top!

ME

bob_25

Flow

Mark, do you run the pumps continuously or do they cycle? If continuous do they modulate flow? What design water temp did you use when you sized the Beautyrus radiation? What design water temp for radiant? With a temperature modulating heat source I would think you would want continuous flow. During high domestic demand the buffer could reach 180* ? maybe?. What will you do with all this heat and high temp water with a low temp system? Looks like a fun project I am envious. bob

Mark Eatherton1

Hello Robert!

Good to see your writing on the Wall. The system is currently (temporarily) set up as continuous circ with outdoor reset. Temporarily because I have yet to install my new Danfoss ECL programmable controller. Hopefully witin the next week or so. THe pump for the space heating loop is single speed. It pushes 3.5 GPM. The Buderi panels were sized based on an EWT of 140 degrees F, same for the radiant floor.

The DHW production level of the boiler can be programmed. I've programmed it not to exceed 160 degrees. The tank temp has not exceeded 140 degree set point by more than a few degrees, so over shoot is really not an issue.

As you can see by the graph, once combustion ceases, the outlet temp drops like a rock. Little to no heat wasted up the flue. What little residual heat remains is flushed into the space ehating system and disipates rather quickly. Once I get the ECL set up, the DHW call will be enabled with a post purge pump run cycle of around 2 minutes to flush the residual heat (little as there is) into the DHW buffer tank.

Are you ready for this. I finally got a chance to review 135 minutes worth of logged data from some testing I did last night. The boiler consistently held an thermal efficiency of 98%. No bull. 98%! And that was on HIGH burn. I suspect I'll see thermal efficiencies of 99% when I start long term testing of the lower stages.

This is based on a flow rate that is known, constant and clocked, a delta T that was clocked once a second for the whole time frame, and a gas meter that gives me a momentary pulsed output for every cubic foot of gas that goes through it.

I am simply blown away by the efficiency of this little puppy. Can't wait for it to get cold outside! (Didn't think I'd ever hear myself saying that!)

Good to see you my friend.

ME

Cliff Brady

What computer port/cable does

this thing use? Why the special cable?

Mark Eatherton1

New system schematic

Here ya go Wayne. One note, the common piping for the PONPC does represent a possible short circuit that could lead to heat being drawn off the tank and injected to the heating loop. That is intentional, and I intend to use it to buffer calls for heat during marginal periods. Haven't gotten all the bugs worked out yet, but that's pioneering for ya!

ME

Mark Eatherton1

The cable...

allows a Vision 1 certified dealer to access the brain that is onboard in the boiler. It allows you to review all fault codes from the day the controller was born to the present. It also allows you to see all the parameters shown either in graphic form or raw data. All you need is a PC and their cable to hook it up. It also allows you to log data for however long you want in sample rates as low as 1 per second, or as long as every 10 seconds. You can also tell it what parameters you want to log to save memory space.

The "fat" lines on the graph indicate the device as being on.

It also will allow you to see the status of 8 other cascade zones, their temperature and on off status. This is the next feature to be released in the Vision line of controls.

Awesome stuff. They don't make'm like they use to.

ME

Mark Eatherton1

5 ranges of normal operation...

the 8 I saw were in test mode. Under normal operation it uses 5 different modulation steps. I'm going to talk to the chief to see if I can access the stepping portion of the control so I can readjust them to my needs :-)

ME