too much info

DanHolohan

I think

that when someone says, "Your price is too high," what they're really saying is, "You have not yet proven the value of your goods and services to me." That's the challenge to a marketing savvy contractor. Steve E. did his very best to prove the value through his superb quote process, and when that didn't work, he then took what I think is the best approach. He smiled and walked. And he just might catch the guy on the other end once things don't work out as expected. And once that guy pays Steve, he will no longer have hired the low-bidder. A lesson for the consumer.

You do get what you pay for.

murph'_3

Riding high with Triple Crown !!!

Tee Hee, I am currently not allowed to answer the phones around here, the reason I am not quite positive!! I do however get to take the pre-screened info for driving directions (i guess maybe too honest sometimes)We keep a listing in the yellow pages for customers to find us and that seems to be where new prospects are calling from, almost always the first question is "how much" or "can you give me" price concerns (i tend to start off with a question of how did you get our number??)Guessin the phone script writers are shaking thier heads right now!!


just the same way there are different types of contractors out there, there are different types of buyers. some folks will never get together no matter what the price or quality/service they recieve or percieve. funny how some of the educational seminars are more about "selling" than they are about "nuts and bolts" of the systems!! I constanly wonder if this is the way of the trades back in the fifty's and sixty's or is this what hollywood has this country percieving just of the last thirty years or so.I kinda feel that with the advent of cheaper replacement parts and easy fixer kits has everybody thinking this is a gravy train and all companies are out to put a scr*@in' to them, most that have tried and failed will appriciate what all is involved, others will scream about those who do and do it well (and not be living in poverty)


This is not a hobby nor a sport, go ahead and get educated on "how" and "why" ,but lets not forget the most important part of "WHAT IF" and if so "WHO" will be affected, could be someone worth a little more than chump change!!!



And to borrow a quote "hug your kids"(or your heating guy!!)



Murph' (SOS)

Dan_8

We should expect to pay for what we get...

...but don't always get what we pay for.

I couldn't agree more with the first part of what you're saying. However, I think that "You get what you pay for" is too simplistic and sort of encourages looking down on paying less for something even though the less expensive solution might fit your needs ("fit your needs" is obviously the tricky part of that sentence since so often people don't fully understand their needs). It also doesn't acknowledge that there are unscrupulous people out there that want you to pay more for something than you should or that occasionally the expensive thing just doesn't deliver on what it promised.

In *no* way am I saying that Steve E's client made the right choice. However, all choices to go with the less expensive option aren't wrong either and that's what that old aphorism tends to suggest (at least to me).

murph'_3

> I first will say that I've been used and abused

> much the way you describe. I've also asked

> questions of a few people in the last 20 years.

> Only recently have I bought a book by Dan. Only

> recently have I watched this site regularly.

> However, I don't believe that those are

> pre-requisites for calling myself a "heating

> contractor". I haven't seen any seminars near me

> that I could attend. A 6 hour drive is too far.

> Different areas of the country have different

> mean incomes and require pricing to accomodate

> the public and stay in business ( I am at the top

> of the heap, price wise here ). I am respected by

> the public AND my peers for my knowledge and

> ethic, although not always liked.:) I have

> learned a couple of things here that answered why

> previous projects didn't work quite right. I had

> already "cured" them, but now know WHY. Broad

> statements regarding others' knowledge, etc. are

> demeaning, offensive and quite often inaccurate.

> Without personally knowing you I can't be sure,

> but it seems that the "horse you're riding is

> pretty tall". No disrespect to Dan or others,

> including you HR, but there are a LOT of

> knowledgeable people out there. Many have never

> been here. Most are not published authors.

> (Remember Alex is published !) Anyway, a little

> humility goes a long way and perceptions are what

> people see. If this is to be an exclusive site

> for "pro's" to "crow" I'm outta here, and HO's

> won't visit either to "Find a Contractor" or get

> belittled. There, that's off my chest! Can you

> tell you hit a nerve? Tony

murph'_3

> I first will say that I've been used and abused

> much the way you describe. I've also asked

> questions of a few people in the last 20 years.

> Only recently have I bought a book by Dan. Only

> recently have I watched this site regularly.

> However, I don't believe that those are

> pre-requisites for calling myself a "heating

> contractor". I haven't seen any seminars near me

> that I could attend. A 6 hour drive is too far.

> Different areas of the country have different

> mean incomes and require pricing to accomodate

> the public and stay in business ( I am at the top

> of the heap, price wise here ). I am respected by

> the public AND my peers for my knowledge and

> ethic, although not always liked.:) I have

> learned a couple of things here that answered why

> previous projects didn't work quite right. I had

> already "cured" them, but now know WHY. Broad

> statements regarding others' knowledge, etc. are

> demeaning, offensive and quite often inaccurate.

> Without personally knowing you I can't be sure,

> but it seems that the "horse you're riding is

> pretty tall". No disrespect to Dan or others,

> including you HR, but there are a LOT of

> knowledgeable people out there. Many have never

> been here. Most are not published authors.

> (Remember Alex is published !) Anyway, a little

> humility goes a long way and perceptions are what

> people see. If this is to be an exclusive site

> for "pro's" to "crow" I'm outta here, and HO's

> won't visit either to "Find a Contractor" or get

> belittled. There, that's off my chest! Can you

> tell you hit a nerve? Tony

murph'_3

lets not assume.......

what is correct for "the customer" as far as what is right!! If we begin assumptions of what they "need" or can "afford",game over!! I have met folks in nice homes way over thier heads in debt, and guys running around in twenty year old beater cars with portfolios that would make a sultan blush. (not saying I do it myself) but properly done most folks would appriciate choices.


To borrow another quote "been there, done that, got the t-shirt"


Murph'

Mark J Strawcutter

not necessarily

I would agree with "you don't get what you don't pay for"
but not necessarily "you get what you pay for" (unfortunately)

Mark

DanHolohan

What

Steve E. does is contract for RESULTS, not just for equipment and installation. To me, that's where the value is. I may not have explained that well. Thanks.

Dan_8

Explanation

Let me also make sure that I'm being clear...

I completely believe that Steve E performs excellent work and is well worth what he charges and delivers what he promises. Probably everybody concerned enough with their business to come here and talk about it is charging just what they should and I'd never presume to question it.

All I wanted to say is that sometimes you don't get what you pay for (whatever the reasons and whatever the product) but that you should always expect to pay for what you get.

Edited five minutes later:

And maybe I'm not placing this very well in the broader context either? That homeowner probably made a bad decision. It probably involves ignorance of the differences between the quotes. As for other reasons.. who knows?

If, however, it was true that everybody always got what they paid for then the logical extension of that would be that everybody would say "Hey, this quote is X% more expensive so therefore it must be X% better (or at least some amount better)". However, in this world mistakes are made, people pay too much or too little or buy the wrong thing or get talked into stuff they don't need and that makes people tense when they're spending money on stuff they don't really understand.

Am I making any sense? Have I missed what you guys were talking about? Sorry if I'm just posting gibberish...

Geno_7

The customer...

is always right. I hate it but it's the fact. What they want is what they get. I love the story Dan has about wanting to buy a monitor instead of a tv. ever heard that one? It's classic sale associate not listening to the customer. Thanks for that one Dan!!
Geno

DanHolohan

> Let me also make sure that I'm being

> clear...

>

> I completely believe that Steve E

> performs excellent work and is well worth what he

> charges and delivers what he promises. Probably

> everybody concerned enough with their business to

> come here and talk about it is charging just what

> they should and I'd never presume to question

> it.

>

> All I wanted to say is that sometimes you

> don't get what you pay for (whatever the reasons

> and whatever the product) but that you should

> always expect to pay for what you get.

DanHolohan

Got it

Amen.

Tony_8

I read it

more than once. I'm not debating my position here either. You don't know what you sound like, apparently. Maybe you think I'm out of line because I think you're out of line. Problem with this forum is it's hard to read between the lines. I will answer your private message and give you some perspective in that.

Raven

too much info

I also believe that to much information on repairing a unit that has every element for disaster is not a smart idea.Mixing 120V,fuel,an ignitor and a person lacking any knowledge in the field,dan,will most certianly cost some there life sooner or later.I was under the impression that this cite was was to share ideas between people in our trade.Being a licensed tech for 18 years I would not give advice on how to fix A unit I could not see.Not to mention the legal implicationswhen his house catches fire and he tells,who,told him what to do.Sharing experience and ideas with other techs is wonderful,but thats were I draw the line.the next time I read the paper and see a home explosion I will know I did not help cause it.

DanHolohan

This site

is open to everyone, Raven.

Geno_7

Don't be sorry..

I've done it, I'm guilty of it. I've picked the wrong contractor over price. And I know better. Whenever I'm having work done on my house I'm checking prices and trying to make sense of it. What exactly are these people doing, if anything, to make their price so much higher?? It must be excruciating for some homeowners to make sense of what different contractors are trying to sell them and that's where I think this site can really help them. Having said that I think a lot of companies make the mistake of hiring actual salesmen who used to sell toothpaste or cars to sell equipment. I think a tech who has good exp. and is, well, able to speak intelligently can blow any salesmmen out of the water. Knowing your product, listening to the customer and being able to explain why this system is better than that one, in the end it's the customer who makes the
"informed" decision and they have to live with it. I've had to live with mine.
Geno

Geno_7

wrong place

the message "don't be sorry" was meant to go under
Date: July 18, 2003 10:58 AM
Author: Dan (dan@vose.org)
Subject: Explanation


sorry folks, sorry Dan's
Geno

Mad Dog

Yeah well I'm still waiting for it Tony!

Your private response.....I sound the way I sound.....we all have different perspectives on t'ings right? I don't appreciate your attempt to misconstrue and demonize what I posted. Mad Dog in waiting

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

bruce pirger

Well I'm the local astronomer homeowner and I've built my house from the footers up. I've paid 1. My excavator 2. My roofers and 3. My HVAC guys. That's it. Everything else I have done alone.

While I'm sure I could have put together my own near boiler plumbing, I never would have done it as nicely, as compactly, or as efficiently as the pro's did.

Through this site, Dan's books, Siggy's book, this DIYer learned quite a bit...designed the system, installed much of it, and I think worked extremely well with the pro's.

I would say that this site, more than anything else, provided me with the encouragement to seek out the pro's. Not your "leave it to a pro" comment...didn't get many of those...but just from realization of all the details, the little learned lessons, nunaces, of doing it right.

So, I'd say your sharing of info ENCOURAGED me to drop the $7K or so to have it installed. Only the third sub I've hired.

I think folks that want to keep their info to themselves will somewhat quickly find themselves alone. I guess it's like advertising...show me you know what you are doing and talking about, you might get the job. Keep a tight lip and don't say much, I'll personally believe you probably don't know.

Dan, this is a GREAT site...your books are very good...and all the folks here, I think, are outstanding!

Steve Ebels

Speaking of DIY'ers

I've got to be about the worst perpetrator of that genre' that walks the face of this earth myself. I'm absolutely incurable. The Lady Kathy and myself moved into the house I grew up in 9 years ago. It was too big for mom to take care of, needed some updates and repairs and the store needed the space my old house sat on to make that world famous jerky. We packed everything up and moved the day before Christmas. (I wouldn't recommend that to anyone who doesn't have supreme faith in their marriage.)

In that 9 years, my sons, son-in-laws and/or myself have:

1.Installed a 120 ft. deep 5" well. I traded the local well driller a new washer and dryer for the hole and setting the casing and I did the rest.

2. Ripped off 4 layers of various kinds of siding, wrapped the whole house in 1/2" blueboard, reinsulated what spaces we could get at and resided the whole thing. Along with that we installed 9 new windows and a new french door out onto the deck. The roof was peeled down to the boards and reshingled also. Whew! that was I summer I don't care to re-live. All 4 of the boys participated in that project with me. Two 30 yard dumpsters of junk came off the roof and the sides of the ole' place. Oh yeah, the deck........ The old one was pretty much junk and the slope of it drained all the water towrd the house, so I wrapped a chain around the joists and yanked it off the house with the Ford. The boys and I built a new one that slopes the right way. The old deck was recycled into deer blinds.

3. By the second winter we were tired of freezing our butts off so I tore out the ancient wood/coal, converted to oil, converted to natural gas, furnace. I went out and bought Siggy's book, Modern Hydronics, and installed the first boiler I had ever done. Ripped out walls to get piping up to the second story, ran baseboard according to a MANUAL heatloss calc I got from the Hydronics Institute and let it rip. AAAHHHHhhhhhh it was good to be warm everywhere in the house. (The boiler and baseboard turned out to be oversized by at least 40%) No more frost in the upstairs john. Did that with Andy and Matt who were 13 and 9 at the time.

4. The upstairs shower drain sprung a leak and saturated the drywall on the kitchen ceiling, bringing about 20 square feet crashing to the kitchen floor one day whilst we were gone to work. That began the GUBR. Great Upstairs Bathroom Remodel. Or in Kathy Jean's words the "Goldang Ugly Bathroom Remodel". New drywall and paint, toilet, shower, faucets, vanity, wiring, plumbing, drains and vent. (No t-shirts were available at the time for that Murph). Hired a drywall guy to hang and finish the new walls and ceiling due to the wierd angles in the room. I did everything else.

5. Pulled the carpet off the kitchen floor, sawed up the 4 layers of tile, linoleum and luan and installed cement board and ceramic tile. Got some tips from the guy who used to do our floor covering work at the store and had at it. Did that myself.

6. Tore the entryway right down to the studs and joists and installed tongue and groove white cedar on the walls and the ceiling and ceramic on the floor. It never had any heat in it so I added a panel rad there, and in the downstairs bathroom and the laundry room while we were at it. Put in can lights, new wiring, switches and outlets. Son-in-law Eric did about all of the cedar, (he really is good) and Andy, Matt and the other son-in-law Mike, did the cement board and tile. Pulled out the old basement stairs and replaced them while we were in there too.

7. Pulled up the carpet in the living room, installed Climate Panel and tube then nailed down 475 sq ft of hardwood flooring. Just finished that this week. (It may be a while before I can stand fully upright).Many thanks by the way, to Dave Garlow and Steve Rothbart from Stadler-Viega. Andy, Mark (one of my employees) and myself did the work all in two days.

8. On the to do list yet for this summer is a new boiler. It will be a VB-2 with a Divicon and a Vitotronic 200 control. Along with that I'll be replacing all the baseboard with panel rads/trv's. That will be interesting as I have kept records of gas usage since we moved here.
The boys will help with that.

9. Gutted the downstairs bath and installed a jetted tub, vanity, faucets, wiring, lights, GFI. Hired a drywall guy for the walls and ceiling and a tile guy for the tub surround. The rest I did myself, with help from the boys of course.

10. Future...... A glass reading/birdwatching/sunroom and a master bath off from our bedroom. A 32 X 48 two level garage/workshop/chicken coop/storage/vehicle maintenance type building on the side lot. A guy has to have someplace to play in his spare time ya-know.

These events are not in chronological order, just the order that I remebered tham in.

So....... In summation. Was everything I did, done professional grade? In a word, no. I've seen better drywall jobs than what I did myself but it's way better than what it replaced. Am I satisfied with the boiler system I put in 8 years ago? Obviously not. I've learned a thing or three about boilers and heating systems during that time. (Thanks mainly to the Dan and all the guys on this Fabulous Forum!)

To answer the other side of the DIY question, did I save money doing it myself? Yes. How much is debatable especially seeing as I am ripping out an 8 year old boiler just because I understand things a lot better now than when I put that one in.

Have I derived any pleasure and/or satisfaction from doing all these things myself? Without a doubt. (It was all worth it just for the time I spent with my kids alone). I think, the key motivator for a LOT of DIY'ers is it's just fun to do something with your own two hands and the brain the Good Lord gave you. For me that's enough.

Steve Ebels

I'm willing to be taken advantage of ........

I just can't function any other way. I feel like I have to do my best for everyone regardless of how they choose to treat/use me. When I get to the end of my time here on this earth I don't want to feel like I should have, or could have, done someone a better turn than what I did.

The low ballers don't hang around forever. They go bankrupt, their reputation gets the best of them, they get sick of wondering why they are always short at the bank, have nothing to rtire on and pack it in, etc. I've seen dozens come and go even in the little area I'm from.

Does it get aggravating? You bet!! But I still go back to treating everyone right regardless of how they treat me. Can't sleep well knowing that I haven't.

As far as my quotes, drawings and designs, those are mine until there's a signature on the bottom line. I feel that's only right. Intellectual property, (now there's a phrase I never thought I would apply to myself) is just that, property. When you buy someone's property you pay for it, plain and simple.

As far as the discussion regarding advice on the Wall goes, I think most of us know when we're crossing the line between advice and designing a whole system. Also, thinking about all the times when I've seen someone asking for help here, I usually see someone respond to the questioner by telling them to call a professional when it become obvious the person is in over their head.

Just my two cents

Have a good'un Murphman

Jim_19

the Wall has been an education

I'm in the process of having a FHW system installed by a contractor I found on this wall. His price was approx 33% higher than the low bidder.

I've seen his postings here on the wall and it's obvious he knows what he's talking about. He did the heat loss, asked all the right questions and gave me a professional proposal on how he would solve my heating problem.

I've done a lot of stuff around the house but I know my limits. To me the Wall has been an education - I knew what questions I should ask and I knew what questions a qualified contractor should be asking me!

DanHolohan

And this

has always been my vision for this site.

Thanks for the post, Jim.

Dan_8

And a successful vision it is

This site, and the Wall in particular, really is something special. I've been getting information in one form or another from various sources on the internet since the late 80s. I've seen a lot of people and groups interact on the net and the level of courtesy and professionalism combined with the affection and respect that you guys all have for each other is really unparalleled in my experience.