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too much info

Geno_6 Member Posts: 2
I was begining to feel isolated. I'm sure that Jack and I are on the planet EARTH. I see most of the people complaining about my comment are home owners. Hmmmm. Maybe my point is made. The original idea was to get a discussion going and it worked. My theory of h.o.'s and how they are getting here is proven. I'm not saying not to help people out. I think advice is better than a mini school on repair. Are we going to loose our jobs tomorrow? No. There are plenty of people in this country who farm everything out. We are all very busy. Think about this: you tell some one on the net how to repair their unit, something goes wrong,or the info is wrong and they have a fire and sue you. They have a message with your info and e-mail on it. Last year more lawyers graduated from college than are already working. Sorry, didn't mean to scare you.



  • geno_3
    geno_3 Member Posts: 2
    Too much info

    Just wanted to say this WALL is great but let's be careful about how much info we give out to homeowners. I think suggestions and equipment is o.k. but if we tell them how to troubleshoot and take apart oil lines and nozzle assemblies and whatever we are going to be out of a job. Seems to be an awful lot of homeowners looking for info here and you can't see who your talking to on the web. Maybe I'm paraniod. What do you think ??
  • Jackchips
    Jackchips Member Posts: 344

    may be to strong, but I doubt anyone is going to go from a homeowner to a "pro" from this forum. More power to anyone who uses the information passed on correctly.

    They will get some great information and leads for where to go if they can not do it themselves and that is what this forum is for.
  • John R. Hall
    John R. Hall Member Posts: 2,246

    How's this for a comeback: "If I give you all of the correct answers, I'll have to shoot you."

    Knowledge is power. Most folks know what to do with it.
  • Tony_8
    Tony_8 Member Posts: 608
    my best customers

    are educated ones. They know what they can't handle because I've taught them the difference. It also helps to prepare for the ride out to service the break-down. Don't sell people short. The ones who would do their own already are. We'll still have jobs.
  • Gary Fereday
    Gary Fereday Member Posts: 427
    TMI or protectionism?

    The way to best protect your job, is to do it Clean & Correct! If you tell a customer "how", is it going to hurt you? No! It is not. Sooner or later he will have to have your expertise in obtaining a Clean & Correct job. His word of mouth advertising will carry you over his moment of DIY. Perhaps even more so when he notes that you told him how to do it and he messed it up! Cooperation with a customer is some of the best advertising you can get! Oh there are a few out there that will take advantage but they already have as was noted! The one thing that must stop in the business owners mouth is his costs of the job! Only the selling price is negotiated! Costs are the business owners property! Everything beyond that is for sale. Even schooling for home owners! (consultation if you will). JMHO bigugh
  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424
    You know a lot more than you think you do.

    Its an insult to your trade if you think answering a few questions is going run you out of work. If you give enough correct information, there a good chance that they will end up hiring you for the job, instead of doing it themselves. Even for those few who will end up doing it themselves, most only have so many hours in a day, and you will be called to help them some day.

    The information given out here on this site, and over all our phones is just the tip of the iceberg, compare to all the info you have picked up through the years.

    UNLESS you don't educate yourself, and are not keeping up with the industry. Then you may end up in the same catigory as back yard mechanics, and it seems to me most of them can't work on anything newer than 20-30 years old.

    Usually these informed people will be the customers who will respect you the most, and will send their lesser informed friends your way.

    You always benifit by giving out good information.

  • Wayco Wayne
    Wayco Wayne Member Posts: 615
    I agree with

    Tony, My favorite customers are the ones that are paying attention to their equipment. I'm replacing a fan coil today where the Lady never changed a filter her whole time in the house. She wanted to upgrade the capacity because it just wasn't cooling as well in the last few years. She was proactive enough to check my price against Sears. (I was privately insulted. If she only knew the difference in quality. It's not apples to apples) I have worked with customers on radiant floors where they wanted to put up the plates and tubing while I handled the boiler piping and controls. They have all come away with an appreciation of how difficult our trade can be.

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  • Roger Tuohy
    Roger Tuohy Member Posts: 2
    Too Much info?

    From this HO's point of view, you guys are simply the best because of your contributions to The Wall. I come here for info and because I am a Wethead fan.I am not a DIY type.
    I am in the process of selecting a pro to replace my boiler.I have had four estimates done. Two guys did not even talk about doing a heat loss calc. The other two were totally up to date and gave me practical info that fits my comfort and budget needs. These guys listen to what their customer is saying and spend time answering questions.
    Both were glad that I was a bit more knowledgeable than the average HO and were pleased to learn that I read The Wall posts.
    You Wall pros have taught me much and for this I remain greatful.
    So which pro will I choose and why?
    Sealed combustion & outdoor reset was stressed a bit more by one pro and he also pointed out a few more issues that needed to be addressed regarding heat loss.

    Thanks again Wallies,

  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    A fine line

    Let's face it, folks are going to do what they want. I will give information to those who ask, but I will also let them know how dangerous some things can be.

    I like to go into GREAT detail explaining the different aspects of certain jobs. Some times all that info gets a customer to thinking that maybe this job is better left to a pro.

    So tell them the WHOLE story. "So you've successfully installed that new gas water heater. Do you have the testing equipment to make sure it's burning properly? And did you do a depressurization test to make sure it drafts properly?"

    Just my $.02.

    Mark H

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  • Geno_4
    Geno_4 Member Posts: 4
    Too much info

    Very interesting points of view. I'll tell you the one that got me going was where someone told a homeowner to disconnect their oil lines from an outside tank, put them in a bucket of oil and switch it to one line by putting in the bypass plug. Too much info and the wrong info. They came back a day later and admitted the error but the h.o. shouldn't have gotten that much info in the first place. I'm all for telling someone what their contractor should do or suggest so that they don't get ripped off or what to look for in a contractor. It's hard to diagnose a system over the internet.

    Our industry is exploding right now. I'm an HVAC instructor and we are getting calls for apprentices every day. Right now I'm sure everyone in my class has a job. I agree, my best and favorite customers were the well informed ones. They didn't call at 2 a.m. because the switch was off, they ran out of oil, or because they had no power. Although that was easy money. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. Knowing where to put the X is power. I was very curious what kind of responses that this would get. Thank you all for your input.
  • Joe_13
    Joe_13 Member Posts: 201
    HO DIY's 2cents

    I just wanted to say that while yes, I'm a HO who does a great deal of DIY around the home, I call a pro when it comes to heating equipment. I do the research on sites like the Wall. I then look for a contractor that's familiar with what I want to do since everyone has their own way of doing things and the equip. they think is the best. I'm open to hearing suggestions when the contractor thinks he's got a better idea and can explain why. (Not because you get a better profit margin on brand "X".) I'd like to save a few bucks by running the low voltage stat wiring my self. In the end, when I get the project I signed for done, I'll be the first to tell friends and neighbors the contractors name and what a great job he did. Don't miss out on my great free advertising!
  • Kevin_10
    Kevin_10 Member Posts: 20
    Agree with roger

    I am also a homeowner like Roger. I have learned so much from this forum that I wish I had known before I had my in-floor radiant system installed all the wrong way. With help and GUIDANCE from some of the wallies, I am well on my way to getting my system done correctly. However, there is NO WAY could I consider tackling a task such as this and I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent guy. So relax and don't be so paranoid. As high tech as your business is becoming, you will always be many steps ahead of the homeowner.
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928

    This seems the essence of why this forum is exceptional.

    Knowledge is most valuable when shared and people here seem to believe that most people are not stupid or wreckless and WILL understand their own limitations.
  • Geno_5
    Geno_5 Member Posts: 4

    This is great. Without everybody getting riled we really got some input back and forth. After thinking about it I realize my wife and I do as much as we can ourselves after researching the job and deciding which way to go. The only things I don't do are things I don't want to or I just don't have the equipment or the time.

    Out of curiosity my dept. head and I put a search on the net. If you put heat, or help, etc, you get this site first. We were curious how so many home owners were finding it. I was a little surprised at the responses though. Such is life, I'm usually on the other side of the fence. Have a good weekend.


  • murph'_3
    murph'_3 Member Posts: 29

    TRIPPING OVER EACH OTHER, trying to see who can be the wisest. while I think Geno has a point of why give all the info away to people not wanting to pay for the service call, alot of times they will say no one is qualified in the area. that is a cop out excuse, look around at all the towns that have homes and heating systems installed and serviced, are all these people cold? perhaps there are better ways, but at what cost, but bottom line is these folks are trolling for DIY info so they can save cash. I will add not all of them are ,some do not know where to turn, most of the info is great, some debates add lively reading for most. Dan needs commended for what he brings to the table and keeping the page clean. I see that lots of people here are really trying to elevate the trade and being polite and civil, but to sell your livelyhood short by giving the information away to folks that are just not trained to do the work through continuing education and lifetime of experiance just plain scares the heck outta myself.The same holds true for telling people info over the telephone, what happens if they pull the wrong switch or close the wrong valve. I kinda figure that alot of people are trying to be helpful, but obviously are not running a business but collecting a paycheck. Maybe this hits home or not, but when the lawyers get involved you all may not be able to do either!!

    besides when do you see the computer experts,or marketing guys, or any other walks of life come to your rescue when you post a problem your having, I watch and do not see it very often. I do see alot of comraderie within the trade (and a little infighting, like family) but not alot of advise coming from the auto industry, computer ,healthcare ,or the like (exception PJO). what do ya think about that??


  • Josh Schneider
    Josh Schneider Member Posts: 20
    It's got to be rare...

    I'm a new homeowner (old home), and I just happen to be trying to do all the work on it myself, because I have the luxury of not needing a paying job right now. My situation has got to be rare. I really appreciate any advice professionals give me, and I have no illusions about how tricky HVAC work can be. I plan on using a professional (and paying) for an evaluation of the system, should I manage to put it together in the first place. If nothing else, I don't have the equipment (or all of the knowledge) professionals have to check over the work.

    The last poster in this thread suggested that people in other walks of life don't readily give advice. What planet are you on? For instance, there's more advice on computer issues floating around the Internet (go figure) than anyone could ever take in, let alone understand. Auto advice, health care advice, what have you. Look around online, at least, and you'll see all sorts of people sharing knowledge, and it's not putting anyone out of work. Leave that to our fabulous government.
  • doug_10
    doug_10 Member Posts: 102
    Great Thread...

    Consider this; maybe the reason there isn't enough advice given out in a proper manner - as here on the Wall - is because there is really no other site like this one.

    There are several reasons that I love this website, and anything I have given out for advice has been returned tenfold...and not just in the form of hydronics, but many other things related to family, life, sports, even a decent political and religous discussion on occasion :-)

    I believe the majority of Wallies would agree...anyone care to share? That's what this place is all about...and it's done in a proper and (forgive the description) gentlemanly manner.

    God Bless The Wall...and Dan H.

    Take Care, PJO
  • Dave_13
    Dave_13 Member Posts: 110

    I love this site!!! I think I am now addicted to Hydronics. I have learned more then I thought was humanly possible by visiting this site (usually on 10 times a day!!). I am a Controls Engineer and a lot of the water flow you talk about is the same as electrical flow. And the Controls you talk about are things I program every day. I called on a boiler from a local heating company and they sized it over the phone!!! Guess what no heat loss- no boiler! This is just one thing 1 learned on the wall. On top of Prim/Sec. pumping, variable speed injection, mixing, outdoor reset, etc.... This site has done wonders for me and will definitely make me a much more educated consumer. Thanks to all- I'm hooked!!!!!
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,490

    the Wall has been around since 1997, and as far as I know it hasn't cost anyone his or her job, or gotten anyone sued. I suppose you could say, "Yet!" but I don't think we're doing harm here. In fact, I think we're doing a lot of good.

    We sell a LOT of books to homeowners. Most get the knowledge and come away with the belief that this stuff is best left to the pros. I don't do my own work, Gino. I know better.

    We get about 800,000 visitors each year. No fear.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    Mad Dog's leaning with Geno on this one.................

    Hey Geno...ya smell good too...any relation to Geno's pizza rolls...hee hee. Anyway, I do believe most of the homeowners come here with the right intentions, and I don't have a problem with them trying to fix certain things. However, I've seen a number of general contractors pop in here from time to time that do take work away from us. You know these guys: "I do all my own plumbing, heating, electrical tile...why do I need you guys." One GC that we were working for watched us do radiant several times and now he does it. And, I know for a fact that he comes here from time to time. The other people I have a problem with are so called heating contractors that don't own one of Dan's books, won't pay for a seminar, and are barely getting by with their limited skills that come here to have one of us tell them how to do a job. These people are not to be confused with the regulars here that really want to learn - like me. My problem with these dudes is that they underbid us, get the job , and then come here for a tutoring session. I've seen a few of these guys from my area of Long Island do that. But you know what, that's life, right. I used to help everyone at the supply house too, but after I lost a few bids to these meatballs, I learned. I think this site is great for all involved, but I'll be honest, if you're going to be going up against me on jobs, I better really like and respect you to ever give you my knowledge. It is good to edify and help, but you have to be a smart businessman as well. Mad Dog

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
  • Dan_8
    Dan_8 Member Posts: 56

    Hi, I'm both a homeowner and an E-word which, it would seem, is a pretty low form of life around here so please take this with as much salt as you deem appropriate.

    Geno, I think that the previous poster was just saying that the internet in general has been used as an information sharing medium for a pretty long time. Far longer than The Wall has been around. Traditionally it has been used the most by the computer trades (or professions if you like) but you can certainly get *tons* of help on just about any subject that you care to name on the internet somewhere. Heck, I can remember getting advice on changing motorcycle brake pads and diagnosing a cooling system problem on an old Horizon that I used to own back in the early 90's and lots of other things too.

    The information out there can be helpful stuff but I'm pretty sure that my motorcycle and car info didn't put any mechanics out of business. As a computer consultant I'm not even remotely worried that giving out information will harm my livelihood. As with you guys, I *know* that the service that I provide is worth what I charge and that folks will spend far more time (and time is money right? ;') doing it by themselves and probably end up with a worse result. Heck, most of my clients are folks that have tried to be DIY computer folks (or hired the cheap guy) and end up calling me after they're sitting in the middle of a pile of computer parts with little ones and zeros dribbling out the end of a wire.

    As for The Wall... This forum has a much higher than average (in my experience) professional readership/posting. In almost every way this is absolutely great since it brings so much experience to the table. However, the high number of pros also seems to bring along an attitude toward duffers (like myself) that I can't remember seeing elsewhere.

    Perhaps it's a difference in background? With the computer trades we're sort of brought up in the environment of semi-aggressive sharing amongst ourselves and having to deal with everybody in the world thinking that they know just what makes a computer tick. I think that it hasn't traditionally been that way with heating so maybe it seems weird having homeowners asking technical questions and can rub people the wrong way?

    Certainly that feeling is strong enough that I'm extra reluctant to post some of my piping detail questions on a change in near-boiler piping and controls that I have planned as I just don't want to get into the age old "Let a pro do it" go-round. Maybe that's good since most of you guys are probably pretty bored with the kind of things that I'd be asking... I don't think so but also my contributions to The Wall are zero so my vote really doesn't mean much.

    Anyway, that got more rambly than I would have liked but I think that it's at least somewhat on topic.
  • Geno_6
    Geno_6 Member Posts: 2
    I am humbled....

    ....by your greatness thy heat guru. Just kidding, you are great though. Went to your steam and sales seminars years ago in New London, CT. Learned a lot and thank you again. Any how if you check my July,10th message I think you'll see where I'm coming from. I would never say don't buy Dan's books or use this site,in fact I give you, your website and THE DEAD MEN a lot of coverage in my classes. I teach them the Dead Men credo and a lot of the tricks I learned from you. I give my students your website and tell them to never stop learning and if they ever get a chance to see you, GOOO. I think tomorrow I will wear my Dead Men t-shirt to class. Years from now, my students will be the best tech's in the area and no one will know who taught them, and that will be good enough for me.
    So thanks again.
  • Bryan_5
    Bryan_5 Member Posts: 270

    I am also a homeowner and have been a regular visitor for about 9 months now. Have bought about a dozen books on steam heat. I just love the stuff. The info I have received from the Wall is invaluable to me. It is the only place to find information on my heating system. I am also a do it your selfer. Thanks to the Wall I have sucessfully got my steam system running like the deadmen designed it to. My heating contractor is on speed dial. He makes more money from me because of the WALL!!!! I know what I need to have fixed and he is the one I call to do the work. I am an informed homeowner when it comes to my heating system but there are things I will not touch. I still call him every year and have him come out and service the boiler and make sure everything is running the way its supposed to. And if I have no heat in the middle of January do you know who I am going to call? My heat guy. But with your help I have figured out how to add vents and also what kind to my main and return and it works wonderfully. I have also been able to share with my heating guy some of the things I have learned here. Which he can now use with his other steam customers. There are not alot of steam systems in my area and there are very few people who know how to fix them. So I am forever greatfull for the information and also the Wall. As far as I know the only one that has been hurt in my situation is the OIL company!!!!
  • Tony_8
    Tony_8 Member Posts: 608

    I first will say that I've been used and abused much the way you describe. I've also asked questions of a few people in the last 20 years. Only recently have I bought a book by Dan. Only recently have I watched this site regularly. However, I don't believe that those are pre-requisites for calling myself a "heating contractor". I haven't seen any seminars near me that I could attend. A 6 hour drive is too far. Different areas of the country have different mean incomes and require pricing to accomodate the public and stay in business ( I am at the top of the heap, price wise here ). I am respected by the public AND my peers for my knowledge and ethic, although not always liked.:)
    I have learned a couple of things here that answered why previous projects didn't work quite right. I had already "cured" them, but now know WHY.
    Broad statements regarding others' knowledge, etc. are demeaning, offensive and quite often inaccurate. Without personally knowing you I can't be sure, but it seems that the "horse you're riding is pretty tall".
    No disrespect to Dan or others, including you HR, but there are a LOT of knowledgeable people out there. Many have never been here. Most are not published authors. (Remember Alex is published !)
    Anyway, a little humility goes a long way and perceptions are what people see. If this is to be an exclusive site for "pro's" to "crow" I'm outta here, and HO's won't visit either to "Find a Contractor" or get belittled.
    There, that's off my chest! Can you tell you hit a nerve?
  • Geno_7
    Geno_7 Member Posts: 18

    I have no idea what your talking about. What's an HR? No one is crowing. I can't speak for Mad Jack or anyone else. I started this topic because I was curious about what people thought about it. I wanted an exchange of ideas. I'm all for h.o's buying books, asking questions and learning. Like I said my favorite customers were the smart ones. I think advice is best left to the pro's. I think this is a great forum for h.o.'s to find out if they are being ripped off or not. I do not think we should or can transfer 20+ years of knowledge in a single e- mail.
    I've mentioned twice the one that advised to disconnect the return,put the line in a bucket, "install" the by-pass plug and try the unit. Boom, blown pump seal. All I'm saying is double check your advice and with limited info you can't completely diagnose a sympton over the net.

  • Tony_8
    Tony_8 Member Posts: 608

    e-mail me directly and I will reply my response privately so you will know what I mean.
  • geno_8
    geno_8 Member Posts: 1

    Unfortunately I do not have e-mail at work and I cut it at home because one day I had 400+ spams. I just got sick of it. I'll figure it out eventually. No need to get testy. We are just trying to have an exchange of ideas here.
  • George_10
    George_10 Member Posts: 580
    appreciate the wall

    In the line of business that I am in I appreciate the opportunity to talk about Hydronic water treatment and Steam treatment. There are many misconceptions and false information about the need for treatment in many systems. I look forward to helping educate people as well as continue to expand my education. I appreciate the open forum and the melting pot of "knowledge", IMHO it helps the radiant industry.
  • JackEnnisMartin
    JackEnnisMartin Member Posts: 70
    telling customer too much

    I have read with somr amusement the contractors who feel telling the customer will have them doing thier own work. I had an interesting call regarding a boiler shutting down for no explainable reason -- the customer knew more about boilers than I did -- guess what he is a professional engineer in the heating industry -- he said something all other posters missed when I asked him why call me to fix his heating system he simply said I"Idesign em you fix em I do not do tools" not everyone can be a mechanic,
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,490
    I'm one

    of those guys!
    Retired and loving it.
  • Jed_2
    Jed_2 Member Posts: 781

    I asked one of my Customers today "which customer do you prfer dealing with, the one who has "done the research or the one who hasn't"? He said he is seeing more and more of his customers who are getting educated. His problem is that many of them are around when he is installing tubing(Joist Space, for example), and they start critiquing his method, or some miniscule detail. Yes, details are important; the IMPORTANT details. This goes to the degree of education, understanding of the technology(lay vs. Pro), and the consumate sum total of the cumulative conscious awareness of the emotional and psychological make up of the person who is standing in front of you. In other words("you Masters of Psychology") Contractors: it's your decision how you deal with your customers.

    I design systems(Thank You, Siggy), am not a Licensed Technician, and am constantly seeking to be as knowlegeable as I can to keep up with this industry, and present the best proposals possible to my Customers. I can turn a wrench, drill holes, lay tubing, even disassemble and reassemble a burner, and get the right parts, etc. But don't ask me to make that burner fire right.

    From some of the above posts, I believe the Home Owners who have responded know their limits. So, why the threat?

    My Cummulative Perspective,

  • John Abbott
    John Abbott Member Posts: 356
    Educated consumer

    An informed/educated consumer is my friend.I know my business and I welcome questions.It is much easier to sell todays technology to a consumer who understands what you are selling and they are buying.In my opinion there is no such thing as too much information by a consumer, if you know Your business.


  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
    To Educate or not to Educate

    That is the question.

    My own preference is a highly educated and involved customer, and I'll give you an example of why.

    I recently quoted a job for a nice new home. 1920 sq ft per floor, full finished basement, about 250 sq ft of snowmelt on the walk between the home and detatched garage, second story of garage is 720 sq ft of finished living space. All of the above was requested by the customer to be figured as radiant heat using gyp-crete on the areas that weren't already in cement. I designed the system using a modulating condensing boiler, added some heated wall in the living area to make up for btu shortfall due to monster windows facing North across the lake. Called the wall on with a two stage RTU. (thought that was a needed touch, not an extra). Included an indirect and the two gas fireplaces in the quote which came to just over $43,000.

    Guess what?

    The Homeowner said I was WWAAAAAAYYYYYYY out of line. He showed me a quote from another local "contractor" that was more to his liking. That quote was hand written on a piece of tablet paper and went like this. And I quote.... "Heating system for new house with boiler and tubing. $26,000." He went on to give the btu input of the boiler, (no brand) said nothing about how the system would be set up, and gave no info on absolutely anything else.

    My quote contained the heatloss I had done from his plan, (less than 1/2 the btu's the other guy had listed) and a list of all materials, equipment, warranties, with parts and labor totals listed seperately. This came to 4 typewritten pages not including the heatloss.

    I tried to explain to him that you couldn't even buy my materials for $26K let alone install the system. When I asked him about what type of control setup, mixing valve or injection pump, etc. he replied, "that's the contractors job".

    One part of me feels sorry for him because he's WASTING $26K on a system that has a 10% probability of working in his brand new home. The other part of me says, I can't wait to say "I told you so" (but I wouldn't ever do that no matter how much I felt like it.)

    The point is......... If this poor sucker (and there is one born every minute) had taken the time to educate himself, even just a little, he would be able to spot the fact that he is getting screwed. Which is, exactly what he paid for.

    Give me a customer that knows at least a little about what I am talking about rather than an ignorant fool any day.
  • murph'_3
    murph'_3 Member Posts: 29
    fine line there steve

    when do you say when?/ seems to me there are lots of "customers" that will ask for "quotes" only to take your time and research to the "local low-baller" and tell them to run with it. I have had my fill of it while doing new construction, needless to say I will stay away from that game. sounds like this fella got what he wants, low price!!

    Educated to some people means knowing the price of something reguardless of how it is installed. I had a guy yesterday tell me that he thought $xx.xx was too much for a water heater diagnostic when he could get a new one installed for $300 , this price was advertised some month's ago for replacements by a high volume "specialist" , problem being was this heater was supposed to produce enough hot water for five apartments !! cannot do that from a thirty gallon job burning @ 26,000 btu's.

    What people percieve as a bargain sometimes is not, perhaps this fella will get a huge taste of it with this project. And i agree it is hard to sit back and watch how some will fall for a speil about what service and products cost should be from people not involved in the industry (sorry HO's) ,but the perception of how easy and quick it can/should be from armchair QB's is probaly reason enough for "prospects" to be skepticle in the first place. And funny how safety measures and workmanship are always taking a backseat to price.

    The ones I really feel sorry for are the ones that have no clue to what they are looking at, and are purchasing these "used" homes that the GC's and DIY'ers are really screwing up, there should be a law!! At least I wish there was. These parts is absent of such things, although it may be coming !!

    Murph' (SOS)
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    Very good point there Murph

    Let me state AGAIN, because some people care only to pick out a few words from a post and run with them. I, MAD DOG, Don't see educated Homeowners as a problem at all, and YES! They usually are the best customers. And, YES! if I ran the Wall, Homeowner's would always be welcomed with open arms - I get A big kick out of 'em...especially the people with steam systems that have them half figured out already. And, YES! I agree that most of them do not want to be bothered actually doing the work because they have an appreciation of what it actually takes. But as Murph and Geno, and Mad Jack , and I have said is that these people do exist and cause a good deal of frustration. How you deal with it is what counts. We charge for estimates if you are not a regular customer. The enlightened homeowner, like those here at the Wall, have no problem with that. The ones who do are the ones that are just looking to shop price and pick your brains - it weeds them right out. That's how I have turned the tables on these pests. I do it with G.C.s too. Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    Sorry, Tony, but you are out of line

    You need to carefully reread what my post said, and then my other post below. Mad Dog

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  • Mark J Strawcutter
    Mark J Strawcutter Member Posts: 625
    education from passionate people

    I love learning new things - especially from people who are passionate about what they do (credit Dan for excellent choice of "passionate" to describe how to approach your work).

    At the risk of repetition I repeat in abbreviated form my experience with hiring a certified arborist to prune some trees. He was passionate about what he did and the right way to do it. Described pruning in great detail, gave me literature on the subject, explained why - not just how.

    I've since attended an extension service sponsored tree pruning workshop. I prune some small dogwoods and fruit trees.

    Did I prune the maple he was originally called in about? No way - it was, and is, beyond my abilities. And he will be back in the future to maintain that tree and others.

    My wife wasn't there for his visit. She just wanted to know the price. Her reaction was "I didn't expect it to be that much".

    Funny, but my reaction to his quote was "how can he afford to do it so inexpensively".

    I had been educated, my wife had not.

  • Geno_7
    Geno_7 Member Posts: 18

    I agree, imagine what a world it would be if people knew how to drive, balance their check book{s} and buy products with some knowledge of what their buying. I get so sick of seeing $500,000 homes being built with 60's technology heating systems. There is nothing worse than standing in the customers driveway looking at a BMW and Mercedes while they complain that some Joe can do it for $400 less.
    I remember when System 2000's came out. We worked very hard to sell them and used testimony from a few customers that showed they cut oil bill 1/2 or more. I would spend a good hour over sometimes on an annual maintenance selling. Only problem was we soon had to pick up more accounts to move the same amount of oil that we used to. hehe.
  • Geno_7
    Geno_7 Member Posts: 18
    I couldn't

    have said it any better myself. what did I start? Is this going down in the annals fo history or what??
  • Geno_7
    Geno_7 Member Posts: 18

    Hey, you get what you pay for, right?
This discussion has been closed.