Insulation

heretic

casements

Mike is right about the casements.
If the leak really is in the window to frame seal, you can use the EPDM so long as it is not so fat that it prevents the window from closing flat on the tape.
Potentially, the tape on the hinge side stop could cause 'binding' before the latch side mates with the stop. Depends how thick the tape is, and how tight the tolerances are.
In the case of binding, you could possibly use plastic 'v' weatherstripping material around the frame instead of on the stops. In some cases, you can use both for overkill.

Another option would be to use aluminum track with vinyl bulb next to the stops, or similar products made of wood. Can easily be adjusted for a perfect seal without effecting window operation.

Casements are inherently so much easier to seal than sliders.

The 'super premium' option for old casements would be to use fancy silicone seals routed into the frames or stops.
These are available from Resource Conservation Technology. They finally got a minimal website at:
http://www.conservationtechnology.com/

Mark Hunt

Curtain effect


is when the air drafting from the appliance area blocks the products of combustion being produced by the appliance.

Checking draft with a match will let you know that air is drafting up the chimney, but it is not necessarily an indicator of flue gas draft.

I saw this recently on a water heater. A manometer showed draft, but the combustion analyser showed no CO and the O2 level was about 21%. The flue gases were coming out of the opening to the combustion chamber.

Now get this, the water heater was producing over 2000ppm CO!

It was old and the customer was ready for a new one. We installed a power vented water heater.

The B-vent chimney was easily 6 feet above the roof and I estimate it's total height at 35 to 40 feet. Sucked air like crazy from the basement, but the water heater was spilling into the home.

Mark H

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Kevin_10

What can you do to prevent heat loss thru recessed light canisters?

heretic

Can lights

These things can act like hot little chimneys, sucking air out of the house. They can make a big wet mess in the attic, and spectacular ice dams. Cathedral ceilings and cans are a particularly bad mix.

The IC (Insulation Contact) rated ones can be sealed to the drywall, and buried in insulation. The IC ones I have seen do not leak any air through the can housing, but I'm not sure if that attribute is part of the rating or not.

For the leaky kind, the easiest and cheapest method I know of is to build a drywall box around them. Scraps of drywall can be screwed together with drywall corner bead, and sealed tight with standard latex caulk. Allow about 2 inches of minumum clearance from all can surfaces. The box is then screwed and caulked tight to backside of the drywall, and buried in insulation.

An upgrade would be to stick a layer of foam board around the outside of the box.

james_6

baseboard insulation

i want to insulate my baseboards and electric sockets. does spray foam insulation work well? they do sell a low foaming spray for outlets. should i take off the baseboards and shoot this in?

heretic

Baseboards/Outlets

Really depends upon the construction. Lots of possibilities.
Sometimes it is better to just caulk the gaps over taking baseboard off. Removal can make a mess of a plaster wall.

Sometimes the plaster or wallboard behind them extends to the floor, other times it is completely open back there (very leak-prone).
Sometimes the floor (or subfloor) extends under the baseboard, other times the ends are covered with a shoe moulding (better for sealing). Different solutions for different problems.

Outlets leak in 3 places:
1) The gap between the wall and the box.
2) The various holes in the back of the box.
3) Where the cable enters the box.

For the gap around the box, you can use foam for larger gaps, or caulk for smaller gaps. "Low Expansion" foam is usually the one you want.
This is a good start, but effective sealing really requires removing the recepticle, and sealing the various holes in the box with caulk. Regular latex caulk is good enough for holes, though a more flexible caulk is better around the cable entrance.
Sometimes it is easier to completely remove the box, depending upon how it is attached. On old houses with plaster and lathe, they tend to come out easily.

I have not found those foam cover plate gaskets to do much good.

james_6

Thank-you Corey, Mark and all the people who gave such great advice on insulating a home! It is greatly appreciated! Heres to a warm, comfortable home this winter

Toni

james_6

INSULATION: Boiler vs. Forced Air

My buddy and I have a long standing argument over boiler vs. forced air and which loses heat quicker. I believe the forced air does because it comes from the ceiling. I have a boiler with cast iron radiators and my heat seems to stick around much longer and it seems more evenly distributed. Can someone end this disagreement? also, which is cheaper to run?


Rick

Mark Hunt

Stop arguing


Homes lose heat, heating systems produce heat.

The rate that a home loses heat is will depend on the how well it is insulated and how tight it is.

Your cast radiators heat your home primarily through convective heat transfer, warm air rising. They also give off radiant heat which is an added benefit.

Your buddies heating system uses convection as well, but there is NO radiant transfer from the warm air.

You could argue that poorly installed forced air systems increase building leakage due to the pressurization of certain rooms that have no return air. How much does this add?? I do not know.

Mark H





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heretic

Lookout

Sort of like shouting fire in a crowded theater.

CI radiators obviously retain heat long after the boiler has stopped firing. You can feel it for yourself. There is great amount of heat stored in that large mass. This 'coasting' tends to stabilize temperature swings.

There is not much residual heat stored in an air duct when a furnace stops firing.

This has nothing to do with the ceiling or how quickly the structure itself sheds heat.

Which is cheaper to run is hotly debated by researchers, and loaded with factors, so I'll leave my humble opinion out of it.

james_6

me and my buddy Steve have been friend since childhood. we like to debate alot. no disagreement about anything could or would ever change that. thanks for the info, it makes a lot of sense

rick

james_6

Can lights

how do i insulate around can lights that i cant physically get to in the attic? can i cover them with plastic on the inside of the house?

james_6

Shrink wrapped windows & Blower door test!

I am having a blower door test done! My windows are caulked and shrink wrapped for the season already. With this affect how this test reads? also, what is a blower door test? how is it performed?

Thnk U

Tina

heretic

Inaccessible cans

I do not think plastic would work. They get very hot.
Might be able to pull them out, cut back some drywall, build a sealed enclosure, then put them back in.
Or replace them with sealed IC units.
Cans and cathedral ceilings generally do not mix well.

Dan M

Fiberglass

Isn't the real insulative effect of fiberglass insulation the trapped dead air within the random fibers and not really the glass fiber its self ?

heretic

r value

Yes. Compressed enough, you would get the r value of solid glass.
With cellulose, you would get the r value of solid wood.
At the cellular level, cellulose has air trapped within the fibers.

Fiberglass is more of an air filter than an air barrier. If air is moving through it, its effectiveness is diminished.

Mark Hunt

Blower door test

The shrink wrap will affect the outcome of the blower door test. You may want to consider removing it.

The test will determine the amount of leakage the home has.
This should be compared to what the Minimum Ventilation Guideline (MVG) recommends for your home. The MVG calculation is based upon square footage, building volume, number of occupants, and location.

If you notice that your home gets dry in the winter months, you can be pretty sure that you have a higher air change than you need.

The test is performed as follows:

The home is closed up as it would be during the winter.

The blower door frame is fitted into a door opening.

A small tube is run to the outdoors and connected to a manometer to reference atmospheric pressure.

The the house "base" pressure is then noted.

The blower door fan is then started and the home is depressurized to -50 pascals.

Once -50 is reached (as long as it can be), the flow rate is noted in CFM (Cubic feet per minute)

Fan pressure is also noted.

Outdoor temperature and indoor temperatures will be needed for correction factors.

All interior doors should be open except the door to the basement unless it is a finished basement.

All combustion appliances MUST be shut off BEFORE the test takes place.

If you have a fireplace, CLEAN OUT ANY ASHES!

While the test is running, walk around and start closing the interior doors. You will be suprised by how leaky some rooms will be. You may even hear the air whistling through window frames.

You will find leaks that you never suspected!

Have fun!!!

Mark H

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james_6

WOW! thanks Mark

for all the great info! I wish i was in New York, I'd come see you!


Tina

Rock Solid Restoration_3

Insulation

Wow, All this talk about insulation, I guess its starting to get cold out.

I think it is appropriate to speak about insulation on this forum because to me every heating/comfort SYSTEM begins with Insulation/air infiltration. After all, how do you begin designing a heating system? Heat loss calc's.

Unfortunately, at least from my perspective, there seems to be a lot more debate and uncertainty when it comes to insulation then there is when it comes to heating systems.

For example, I know now, thanks to hanging out on the wall and Dan's book, among other sources that I will be using hydronic radiant heat throughout my entire house renovation.

However, I still don't know what I will do for insulation. I hear so many differing opinions. "Fiberglass is no good", "Cellulose is no good","Make the house tight, BUT NOT TOO TIGHT", It's driving me nuts. I'm suffering from paralysis by analysis.

Has anyone here had any experience with Icynene?

Thanks

Craig

Mark Hunt

Icynene

There were some concerns a while back about outgasing with this product.

I have been told that those issues have been resolved and that it is no longer a concern.

That stuff seals EVERYTHING so a mechanical ventilation system will almost certainly be required.

Make sure that the installing contractor is VERY familiar with the application or you will have one heck of a mess on your hands.

I heard a story thet other day about a "know-it-all" contractor that blew Icynene all over a customers leather furniture! Seems he didn't know so much about it after all!

Mark H

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heretic

Debate

I doubt there is more 'debate' surrounding insulation materials than heating system design. Try asking about Zone valves vs. Circulators, oil vs. gas, steam vs. water, condensing vs. conventional, water heaters vs. boilers. The experts do not agree. Many ways to skin a cat...

The biggest problem with insulation is the idea that R value is the be all, end all factor. Codes, regulations, and standards are all aligned around R values. Consumers are led to believe this is the only thing that matters. It's right on the package in big type. Another issue is that the fiberglass market is dominated by a small number of very large companies with the resources to market their products very aggressively. Any number of myths have been perpetuated regarding cellulose, and the manufacturers are simply too decentralized to respond.

This is similar to the problem with the heating industry being held captive by AFUE ratings, which do not translate well to the real world.

Icynene can certainly stir up plenty of strong opinions. One important thing to consider with pricey Icynene is the cost/benefit ratio when compared to other products.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

\"paralysis by analysis\"

Is that original?

To add to the paralysis: WATER is the REAL enemy! Ask ANYONE who works with old houses.

Water will ALWAYS penetrate--if not today, it will do it some time in the future.

Moving air helps water to evaporate.

"Tight but not too tight."

No moving air + water = organic growth.

james_6

I keep hearing "tight, but not too tight" how would one know if her home is too tight?

Mark Hunt

That's what


the blower door test will determine.

A good air sealing contractor will calculate the proper air exchange for the structure and continuously monitor the reduction while the leakage is being sealed.

If a building is made "too tight", mechanical ventilation would be reqiured.

There are those that advocate leaving a building loose to allow it to "breathe". The problem is that you have NO control on whee it "breathes" from nor any real control on how much.

Build it tight and vent it right. With an HRV I can choose the rate of air changes, the volume of air changes, and the source of the air changes.

With typical "loose" construction, the air could come from ANY source and it's quailty could not be guaranteed.

Mark H

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Boilerpro_3

Also, with a loose house...

Air can exit at any point, bringing warm moist air from inside into contact with cold surfaces inside exterior walls and ceilings, creating condensation, and then rot and mold. Not only does building a structure loose to ventilate not make sense because you cannot control where the air is moving, but also how much is moving. A reasonably tight house may ventilate itself adequetely on a 20F day, but ventilate way too much on a -20F day because the air excahnge rate changes from .6 per hour to .9 per hour. In warm weather it could be way too low, because the air exchanges would drop to .3 per hour. How cold or warm it is effects how much air moves.

boilerpro

james_6

how do you tighten up a home yet keep the air inside moist?

what is the best way to keep air moist inside a home after you tighten it up?

Patchogue Phil_15

Just breathe

You won't have any problem keeping moisture inside a "tight" house. You might wind up with too much moisture that condensates on the windows, and help mold to grow.

Mark Hunt

Yes, but


a mechanical ventilation system would solve that problem.

Build it tight, vent it right.

I like selling small boilers. The Munchkin 80m weighs 75 pounds. If you STOP the BTU's from leaving, you don't have to replace them.

What a great thread!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Just saw your post


You REALLY need to address the moisture in the basement BEFORE you attempt ANY other issue.

Mold needs two things, food and water. Most of the building materials we use today are FOOD and you seem to have a ready supply of water.

You need to get rid of the water. A dehumidifier might work, but that depends on HOW MUCH water we are talking about. If you have a sump pit, it needs to be sealed . Usually a piece of foam insualtion or even a sheet of plastic will do the trick.

I was in a basement recently that had a HUGE moisture problem. Dirt floor, stone foundation and a dehumidifier sitting on a table with the drain running to an open sump pit.

Now don't you think that some of the moisture that the DH was removing was coming from that puddle of water in the sump pit?

Of course it was. Sort of an invisible water fall.

In your case, I would do NOTHING until I controlled the water!

Mark H

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james_6

this is about the most intense, knowledgeable discussion regarding insulation i've ever seen. thanks all

james_6

how do you check for mold problems in a home, and how do you check for previous mold damage?

Uni R

Insulation

Just wanted to add my 2¢ on this subject. The whole house is a system. R60 in the ceiling doesn't matter if the walls aren't tight. Also, R value is kind of a silly concept and test. I think it is measured in a 70°F lab. At that temp HVAC is an open window affair.

Also, rock wool (ROXUL) is far better than fibreglass in every aspect except marketing. It's R value is much better when the temps are coldest and it essentially fireproof. Also, mositure doesn't affect it's performance as much as other soft insulations.

Styrofoam is good if you can make it tight within the space it is to insulate (not often the case) but you must cover it well because it is very flammable and the fumes are nasty. It is great for basement walls since it is a vapor barrier and can be glued to walls and then "studded" with just strapping.

I'll concur with the pressure test. Seal the envelope well (if it's tight you need to ventilate) and then start insulating where you are losing the most heat. It's too bad digital cameras didn't have an infra-red option. SONY are you listening???

james_6

whats the best way to insulate inside my homes walls by shooting in cellulose. I am afraid of old wires that might catch on fire. whats the best way to insulate wall?

Kaye

heretic

Danger, danger

You are right to worry.
You should NOT insulate cavities with knob and tube wiring in them. Their ampacity relies upon the surrounding open air to cool the conductors. There have been several tragic fires in my area directly caused by insulation. (Note: The cellulose itself will not ignite, which is a common misconception.)
Opening the cavity for insulation makes for an ideal time to rewire. Suggest using conduit, both for protection, and for future flexibility. Conduit is so cheap, it borders upon free. Most older homes could use wiring upgrades and additional recepticles anyways, and it is much easier to do this work before the insulation is in place.

What you want is the 'dense pack' cellulose technique, which involves running the nozzle to the bottom of each cavity, and shooting the leanest possible mixture. The hose is slowly lifted until the cavity is filled.

If you want to learn more, there was an excellent article about dense pack techniques in Fine Homebuilding last year.

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00021.asp