Insulation

james_6

These windows are the crank open type. They open outward to one side or the other. Would this rubber seal work and what is the best way to install it?

John

james_6

Insulation

I live in an older home in Indiana, it was built in 57'. There was not alot of insulation in the attic but there was some old stuff. It was faced. I put unfaced R19 on top of the stuff that was already between the joists. I also am planning on putting insulation between the joists in my un heated crawl space.

What R value is typically put up in this part of the midwest? should I notice a big difference in energy bills by having installed it?

Any other energy saving ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys!

Toni

Big Ed

If you can keep it in.......

........you don't have to pay to replace it.. I think R32 or better is recommended in attic . Just don't block the vents or air passage through the soffit . Attic needs to be vented .

heretic

Convection

Frankly, most heat loss in older homes is convective, not radiant or conductive. Studies have shown that this is often the case for many newer homes as well, due to poor construction details.
The singleminded focus on R values from so many sources (including government, code officials, manufacturers, etc.) is very much misplaced.
In some cases, it has led to very questionable marketing practices.
Fiberglass is actually not a great form of insulation unless conditions are near perfect to support it, yet it dominates the market.

Your best investment in terms of cost/benefit/comfort would be to track down sources of air infiltration, particulary into the attic. Pull up insulation, and seal up every hole in the attic 'floor'. Pipe/wiring protrusions, chases, open stud bays, poorly sealed hatches. Gap around masonry chimneys should be carefully sealed with metal flashing and RTV silicone. A deep layer of dense-pack cellulose would be better than the fiberglass, since cellulose doubles as an air barrier(heavily debated). The fiberglass will work to some extent if no air is blowing through it.

If you have air heat, make sure the attic ducts are sealed with sealant or metal tape (not duct tape), and insulated well.

Insulating over a crawl space is mostly 'treating the symptoms'.
Believe it or not, your cold feet on the first floor are caused by air infiltration into the attic! The warm air that escapes out of the top is displaced by cold air from the bottom in big convective loop.

The good news is that the top source of heat loss can usually be treated for very little money, and the payback period is very short.
Best of luck.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Recommended insulation levels in IN:

Crawlspace/basement walls -- R-10
Floors over unheated crawlspace/basement -- R-19

Don't expect too much in the way of heat energy savings as warm air does tend to rise. Ceiling/attic has the greatest return, particularly up to R-30 or so.

If over a plain dirt (uncovered) crawlspace be wary of floor insulation--particularly if A/C is used in the summer. Make CERTAIN that the crawlspace is fully sealed (no ventilation) before insulating the floor. A meticulously applied vapor barrier is by far best over a plain dirt crawlspace.

CAREFULLY monitor the insulation in the first summer, especially during times of high heat/humidity! Check it in various places to see if it is damp--or worse wringing wet. If so, IMMEDIATELY take corrective measures such as further sealing the crawlspace and installing a vapor barrier. If the situation doesn't end rapidly remove the insulation lest you RAPIDLY rot your floor joists!

The higher your summer dewpoints and the more you use A/C the greater the potential for this type of problem.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

GOOD stuff there!

I too had always believed that cellulose insulation was much better than fiberglass at stopping airflow.

A study by my local utility company however supposedly found that NEITHER were particularly effective in this regard.

Their recommendation as well is to stop convective flow and infiltration--particularly from conditioned space into the attic.

Recessed ceiling lights are particularly troublesome as many are not rated for insulation contact lest they become a fire hazard.

Dale

Other post

Although you may not want to hear it now what you shoud do first is pay the bucks for a good blower door test. This way all the air leaks the other guys mentioned can be plugger with expandable foam or drywall and calk before the insulation job. A blower door analysis is well worth it.

james_6

I want to thank You guys for all the great information. It has been very helpful. I appreciate the knowledge but most of all, the time it takes to help out!

Toni

harvey

After seeing an ENTIRE drywall ceiling on the floor of a master bedroom I would NEVER consider celulose insulation. You won't know if you have a leak until the ceiling falls down. Celulose absorbs water fiberglass lets it pass thru. The leak I saw was caused by an ice dam.

james_6

It's a real bummer that you have to pay to insulate the house and then watch all that MONEY (cellulose) create even bigger problems. I'm sure that WARNING couldnt be found on any of their bags.........Good luck to ya Harvey! thanks for the info. I'll pass it on

Toni

heretic

Some irony here

IMHO, the likelyhood of getting an ice dam in the first place is lower with the cellulose.
Ask anyone who does blower door tests or infra-red imaging why this is the case.

Fiberglass was invented to be used as a filter medium. That's what it does best.

[Deleted User]

Wet Fiberglass Insulation

After going through a flood & removing super soaked/saturated fiberglass from the crawlspace, I can personally gaurantee the water does not just pass through.

Mark Hunt

100% correct Mr.Snow!

I have been doing home energy audits for a few years now.

Fiberglass insulation does NOT stop air movement, it just slows it down.

"Stack effect" accounts for huge amounts of heat energy leaving a dwelling. Warm air rises and finds its way out at the top of the home, and cold, dry air will come in to replace it at the bottom.

This cold air is then heated and begins it's migration upward. It picks up moisture along the way and anything else that is light enough to carry, i.e. mold spores, fiberglass, asbestos etc.......

This is why homes tend to become arid in the winter months. All due to stack effect. The looser the home, the drier it will become in the colder months.

I would caution folks not to get too crazy going around and sealing all of the nooks and cranies they can find.

Without knowing what the actual leakage is compared to what the minimum ventilation required for the dwelling, you could end up with a very tight, WET, home. Now we're talking mold issues.

A qualified insulation contractor should have the ability to perform a blower door test and determine exactly what the building leakage is, and how much it can be reduced.

A blower door also helps to find the invisible leaks.

Now, you must also keep in mind that any reduction in the building leakage changes the dynamics of the WHOLE building. After a building is "tightened up", a "worst case depressurization" should be performed to ensure that vented appliances will still draft properly. This also applies ANY time you add ANY type of exhaust system to your home.

A home we performed an audit in last year is a text book example.

The customer had remodeled his kitchen and had a commercial size gas stove installed. Above it was a 1000cfm exhaust hood. EVERY SINGLE TIME they ran the exhaust fan, the boiler and water heater back drafted into the basement! They had to. The house was severly depressurized. That 1000cfm had to be replaced and the chimney was the biggest hole in the house!

Cellulose insulation in an attic will have better air stopping qualities than fiberglass, but it is not air tight. When it is dense packed however, it is an air barrier.

Air movement through fiberglass insulation can reduce the effective R-value by as much as 40% depending on the amount of air movement.

More to this than meets the eye!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

james_6

Corey Snow knows!!!!!!!!!!

I have listened to your advice Corey, it makes a lot of sense. I have been working in the attic trying to stop air infiltration. I have put unfaced R 19 in the attic over a faced insulation that was up there it looks to me for many years. In fact I don't know what the R value is it's so old. I wanted to put another layer the opposite direction over the new insulation. Is this a good idea? Can I blow cellulose over the new fiberglass?

Thanks for all the great advice!

Toni

james_6

Corey Snow knows!!!!!!!!!!

I have listened to your advice Corey, it makes a lot of sense. I have been working in the attic trying to stop air infiltration. I have put unfaced R 19 in the attic over a faced insulation that was up there it looks to me for many years. In fact I don't know what the R value is it's so old. I wanted to put another layer the opposite direction over the new insulation. Is this a good idea? Can I blow cellulose over the new fiberglass?

Thanks for all the great advice!

Toni

Mark Hunt

Toni


You can blow cellulose over existing fiberglass.

If you haven't already, please read my lower post regarding blower door testing and stack effect.

You must be careful when you start tightening up your home.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

james_6

Mark

I've got to be honest, Mark. I don't really understand why the range hood had to be changed? In the newly remodeled kitchen? Was it sucking out all of the air that the rest of the house needed?

Toni

Mark Hunt

Toni


The stove/oven that was installed is HUGE and that is what is required for the amount of exhaust gas produced.

All gas stoves produce Carbon Monoxide, in this case an exhaust hood HAD to be there.

We did not change the exhaust hood, we replaced his atmospheric boiler and water heater with a sealed combustion boiler and indirect fired water heater.

I just wanted to point out that when you make these changes, they will have some affect on other things in your home. You could solve one problem and create another.

I am all for beefing up insulation and tightening up homes to reduce energy consumption, as I said, I perform energy audits quite often. We need to look at the ENTIRE home as a system and determine what the outcome will be if we change certain parts of that system.

Hope this helped!

Mark H



To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

james_6

Thank-you for the clarification

Mark

I really appreciate all of your help! It makes sense. Although it's good to tighten up the house, I have to be careful just how tight!

Thanks Mark!

Toni

nb_2

basement ceiling

this discussion on insulation and airflow is quite interesting. i live in a very old house. the attic and top 2nd floor walls had rotted, they were redone with good insulation and good attic venting. the basement is unheated, old stone foundation post and beam construction, there is no insulation between basement ceiling and first floor, which is old pine boards with many wide cracks and holes to basement. even with the heat cranked up, the floor is cold and drafty. climate is NE, very moist, humid summer, very cold winters. anybody know what is best method for insulating basement ceiling and reducing cold draft from basement on first floor? thanks

heretic

In terms of attic plane...

IMHO, there is no hole in the attic plane (where you are working) that is a 'good' hole.

While (as was explained), a building can be sealed too tight, this is the worst place to exhaust moist warm air. My point is that I think you can go wild sealing obvious holes in the attic plane without worrying about affecting the entire house as a system in a negative way. This is not to say that a blower door test would not be very enlightening, just that you can keep working up there with impunity. With your cold toes, odds are that you are far from the point of too litle air exchange.

I think Mark would agree with this part.
Mark is the real expert.
Everything I know about concepts like the stack effect and neutral pressure zone, I learned from helpful pros like him.

I use my acquired knowledge (and my trusty foam gun) to help relatives, friends and neighbors tame their drafty old (sometimes new!) houses. Amazing what can lurk beneath the fiberglass. Add up those holes, and you may as well leave a skylight wide open all winter. People spend many thousands on replacement windows when they could spend just hundreds for a much greater benefit. This is because the marketeers know the window business is much more profitable than the weatherization business.

In terms of the fiberglass: If it were my house, I would remove it all in favor of the deepest possible layer of pure cellulose. (Heresy, in some circles..) However, sealing the holes is far more important than your choice of insulation.
Best of luck with your project.

heretic

Blower Door

NB, you would really benefit from a blower door test.
Excellent cost/benefit ratio for a case like this.
The payback period would be very short.
The insulation work performed is clearly not working.
The rot upstairs probably came from water vapor that originated in the basement. Roof ventilation (and even insulation) can actually worsen the situation in the absence of proper air sealing.
Most contractors are not aware of the underlying factors, and rely on ventilation as a band-aid. The consideration is "how to get rid of the water?", as opposed to "where did this water come from?"
It is very difficult to treat the basement as a 'outside' area, and isolate it from the conditioned space.
Better to figure out the root cause of your drafts and moisture problems.
Best of luck.

james_6

i just bought some 1" foam board with foil on one side, i want to insulate my garage door. which side to i put the foil on?

derrick

Mark Hunt

Point the foil


toward the area that you want to keep heat in. In your case it would be the garage.

The foil reflects radiant heat.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

james_6

I had a blower door test performed

the outcome was i was losing most of my heat through the old windows. i have a lot of windows in my place. should i scrape out the old caulk from the outside of the house? also, i was going to put up some plastic around the windows to keep the air out. am using a 6mil. what is the proper way to seal up windows and doors before winter?

Thanks-Troy

Boilerpro_3

A few things to do...

First caulk closed all the cracks, crevices on the inside of the wall. You want to be sure to stop moist interior air from escaping into your exterior wall cavities and condensing on the cold surfaces. You also want to have some ventilation on the outside to allow any trapped moisture to escape, but not too much, so leaving some opening on the exterior is good, so long as rain can't get in. Next repair all the bad putty around the glass. Then go out and find the old fashioned bronze spring type weatherstrip and install this on the edges of your door and window frames. There are also retrofit silicone bulb type weathrstrips that can be installed in a groove that would be routered into the original window stops. While doing this, or if you don't have time to do all that weather stripping, make sure the window stops are adjusted tight against the window frames when the windows are closed. If your windows rattle now, this will help a whole lot.

I've done all these things on my double hung windows and they are exceptionally tight. Until the jump in gas prices I had been heating my 1906 2800 sq. ft frame home here in Northern IL for only $350.00 total per year with my 40 year old American Standard atmospheric gas boiler. It's amazing how cheap you can heat an old home when paying attention to where heat is going.

Boilerpro

nb_3

thanks for the reply. it is an old old house, and i assume the results of a blower test would be that it leaks like a sieve and that it would be impossible to seal it well short of knocking the whole thiing down and building a new house. the basement is old stone and damp like a cave. would a dehumidifier in the basement help? also, the boiler is in the basement and the burner draws air like a strong breeze from 1st floor into basement when it comes on. any idea if insulating basement ceiling would improve comfort? if so, should i go with fiberglass in the joists with no moisture barrier (which would probably just accumulate rot, right?) thanks

james_6

reply to boilerpro

well, seems a little too late for me now! It is very cold in my older brick ranch bout 2100 sq feet. I just happened across this site and found this post about insulation. I wish I had this info a few weeks ago. My wife had me put up plastic this year. We were getting outrageous energy bills for having but one floor. Should I take it all down and weatherstrip the crap out of it? then put plastic up?

needing help!

Boilerpro_3

Probably...

Once you weatherstrip and if you have decent storms you probably won't need the plastic anymore. I'd just take it a window at time and see how much you can get done. Start on the windy side of the house and work your way around. With nat gas around $0.70 per therm last winter, our heating bill went up to about $850 last year, I think.

Boilerpro

corey

Sealing Windows

The boilerpro method is the way to go. Old windows can be made to perform very well, and it is often cost-effective to restore over replace. They also look right on the structure. Look around, and note that many 'high-tech' windows from the 70s and even the 80s are at end of life. Multi-panes failing, wood under vinyl rotting. Did they pay for themselves yet? It is common for 100-year-old windows to still be in use. The thing is, it can be very difficult to find anyone who is willing to do this sort of restoration work for you. It's not glamorous, is tedious, and the margins are better on replacement work. If you DIY, one good method is to just do one window at a time. Can be overwhelming otherwise.

But winter is coming! Need relief now!
I have found 3 good low budget methods for temporarily sealing leaky windows.

1) Shrink film: Cheap. Nearly invisible, stops all drafts. Easy to remove. May be difficult to find a place to secure on some windows.

2) MorTite rope caulk: Cheap. Easy to use. Resembles modeling clay. Works if you get every gap. Easy to remove, but some light cleanup is required. Never seen it damage any finish. Can be ugly, but comes in 3 colors now. Does get 'icky' with debris if you decide to keep it for a few years.

3) Removable caulk (in a tube). Goes on faster than Mortite. Seals well. Usually comes in clear. A bit expensive for one season. Will damage some natural finishes upon removal. Seems kind to painted surfaces though.

All of these seal on the inside, which is the best place to put an air barrier on a leaky window. Sealing on the outside can sometimes cause moisture problem.

As already noted in this thread, just make sure the windows are the main problem. Drafty windows on lower floors usually indicate air leaks upstairs. The air would not come in through the windows if it had no where to go.

james_6

I've got pretty crappy 1 pane windows that are very cold! I bought some Frost King Xtreme rubber weatherseal self stick tape. Is this a good air barrier?

Perry

Mike T., Swampeast MO

I won't lie...

...and say that this was either quick or easy, but it DOES work very well.

The spring bronze is known for long life and high effectiveness.

The dark line you see against the window-facing edge of the stop moulding is pile-type weatherstripping. It gives a bit of "wiggle room" to help keep the lower sash from sticking too badly and makes a very nice gap when you paint.

Use thin foam weatherstrip on the top and sides of the storms but NOT the bottom. Water will ALWAYS find its way in and MUST be able to make its way out!

heretic

EPDM

I assume that is an EPDM material, which is more durable that the other various foam materials available. Works well on doors and casement windows, given the right clearance and flatness of the mating surfaces. Sometimes best to mount a new stop moulding all the way around so that seal can be adjusted for optimal fit. Not useful for rubbing or sliding surfaces. Mounting surface must be extremely clean, or none of the self stick products will stick for long.

I generally use alcohol(rubbing or denatured) for this cleaning before applying any sort of weathersrip. Cleans well, dries quickly, leaves no residue, and generally does not damage finishes. Be careful with shellaced surfaces, but even on these the amount of finish that comes off is usually minimal with a quick wipe.
Alcohol is also among the least toxic of solvents for inside use. No long term effects from this level of exposure. Wear rubber gloves.

Sometimes worth considering the aluminum track with vinyl 'bulb' tubing instead of foam tape. Not beautiful, but works well, cheap, and goes up quick. Mounting with screws works better than nails.
Fitting foam on existing stops can be tough, since gaps are usually uneven. Tough to get door sealed, and also have it operate easily. Building and painting new wood stops takes some time. They also sell premade wood stops with mounted weatherstripping. Convenient, but somewhat expensive, and still needs painting if you want it to match. Looks nice when done.

Best of luck.

james_6

This is a very interesting conversation! I have a situation where I was told that the air in my home is negative in air pressure! My heating bill is astronomical. I don't understand exactly what this means. I am worried about Carbon Monoxide posioning. Is this a concern I should have with negative air pressure in the home? How do I remedy the situation? I do have a Carbon monoxide detector and it has not gone off!

Tracey

Unknown

Tracey, the fact that

you have negative pressure does not mean you have a Carbon Monoxide problem. However, negative pressure means that the house may be very tight construction. Along with that exhaust fans, dryer, fireplace running in the house will remove more air than can be made up by infiltration.That is what creates the negative pressure.That now means that the outside pressure is greater than the pressure in the house. What that will cause is any flue products to be unable to leave the building (pressure down the chimney greater than the draft up the chimney). The products of combustion will spill into the building. One of the products is CO2 which is an extinguishing agent, it will cause any combustion to be contaminated and "quench" or cool the flame. The result is eventually Carbon Monoxide.

Solution: Hire a professional to come in and do a pressure test on your home and then prescibe sufficient "Make UP Air" to equalize the pressure in the building.

Now who was it that told you that you had negative pressure? Was it a contractor? If so they should have gone further to help you to overcome the problem.

PLEASE GET THIS FIXED AS IT IS NOT SOMETHING TO LET GO!!!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Casement windows are generally considered as being VERY low in infiltration. They generally have very effective weatherstripping built in--for MANY years. Earlier casements usually had some special milling to keep down drafts.

Drafts around casement windows are frequently that--AROUND them, less frequently from the sash themselves unless the glazing putty is in bad shape. Look for cracks around the frames--both inside and outside.

In brick/brick veneer homes quite frequently the old putty/caulk around the window frame is VERY leaky--either from age or from shifts in the brick/wood. It's a ROYAL pain to remove this, but you really have to remove it first and then re-seal. Even if you don't like wearing gloves (like me) do your hands and knuckles a favor and wear them for this job!

james_6

Tim~

A contractor came out to service my heater. He was not very informative. I am having another contractor out to see what he says! Thanks a million Tim for the great advice

Tracey

james_6

Aside from having someone out to test the air pressure in a home how can i do it myself? is there a way?

Rand

Mark Hunt

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm


You could......................

Try this.

Close all the windows in your house.

Turn on ALL exhaust fans.

Turn on your clothes dryer.

(If you have a forced air system in your house) Turn on the fan.

Now check for draft on any appliance that vents through a chimney, i.e. water heater, furnace, boiler...........

You can use a match for this.

If the flame or smoke is drawn toward the vent, you MIGHT be ok.

Next, fire up the heating appliances.

Check draft again.

If the flame is drawn toward the vent you may still be ok.

These are crude tests at best. Without knowing the ACTUAL pressures and CO readings, I could not be sure that the products of combustion were actually venting. Little thing called "Curtain effect" could still be a factor.


Let me know how you make out.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

heretic

Negative pressure

Usually a negative pressure problem is related to a home being 'too tight' for the various power vents and combustion devices, as was said.

You can also get negative pressure simply from the 'stack effect'.
In this scenario, there would be a large leak at the top of the house, and few leaks down low to provide makeup air.
An open fireplace chimney, or any big leaks breaching the attic plane can cause this. Makeup air for the powerful 'stack effect' has to come from somewhere, and your gas appliance (or other) flues may become the supply.
Colder outside temps and higher winds make the 'stack effect' more powerful. I have seen this situation in action first hand.

heretic

Curtain effect?

Hey Mark, what's that?