Some Plumbers should stick to Plumbing

Unknown

I'm all ears. I want to stay working with this plumber. He is one of the best I've seen in a long time. In other words, his relationship is important to me & I respect what he does. He just is uninformed in the way of heating like so many other plumbers who were never taught heating. They just picked it up because it was around and what the hell, pipes is pipes! Some took real interest and learned it and well. Most of the guys I know are "Freddy Fluxbrush" types.

I would love to talk the homeowner into a well designed heating system. However I don't want to step on his toes as he has sub contracted me to do what is essentially BASIC plumbing installation.

If there is a knocking at door, I do not know how to proceed. Approach the plumber & show him "How Come.

Unknown

Not all, but a vast sum of plumbers ,,,,,,,,

should keep away from hydronic heat unless they have had some sort of formal training.


You Wallies be the judge.


This was a conversation I had with a [Plumbing & Heating] contractor last week as I remember it: It went something like this:


Hey Freddy (the plumber), This little remodel we looked at turned out they gutted the place. Looks like they nearly doubled the size of the house. Yeah they’re turning it into a Mcpalace.Yeah it’s allot bigger now. All high-end European plumbing fixtures going in too. Steam room, the whole nine yards.


I guess the owners decided not to go with my radiant floors and towel warmer like we talked about when we met with them huh? No radiant. They didn’t like the price we came up with.


So we’re doing just the plumbing here right?


Nope. I got the heat too. Baseboard. All baseboard. Theirs a toe-kick in the master bath. We’re also putting in an 80 Gal. indirect to replace the old gas water heater. We’ll just add a couple of zones off the existing boiler. That boiler they got down there is plenty big for this house. Its something like 200 thousand BTU’s and it looks like it’s only a few years old.” Like I said, We’re just going to add three zones of heat and the indirect and that's it.


What's the heatload now? I asked.



Heatload! We don't need to do a heatloss. I know how much baseboard to put in. It’s not my first remodel you know.




Dare I ask what type of control strategy he’s going to use? I wonder,will he prioritize the DHW? How about reseting the baseboard temp.?


Nope.

“That’s the electrician’s job.” ;-)

DanHolohan

But,

he got a good price! ;-)

RAM_2

And...

...another homeowner gets "ripped off".

Steamhead

But

theyll call you to straighten it out when it doesn't work right.

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DanHolohan

And some customers

deserve some contractors.

There's an **** for every seat.

hot_rod

hee-haw

that's priceless! Thanks for the chuckle.

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heatboy

Some of the smartest radiant guys I know................

are plumbing contractors. Then again, some of the local heating guys can't do radiant correctly even when it's completely designed for them. It sure is tough being a homeowner these days when technology is outpacing the guys doing it. Caveat emptor doesn't even begin to describe the angst homeowners must go through currently when construction is involved.

hb

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Tony_8

ain't it the truth ?

"lost" one today because "the old one served us well for 40 years and we just want a new version of it". 600,000 CI w/o reset on a bbd system with 204,000 design load. Church board didn't trust the technology of "new" stuff. I think I surprised them when I said it was unfortunate they wouldn't be saving any fuel and I'd be here when they were ready. Let the other guy prove me right, I say.

Ben_3

Plumbers

If it wasn't those guys that screw it up cheap I wouldn't be able to leave my card and say how nice it will be to see them down the road to fix all the problems. Keeps my phone ringing you gotta love it

RAM_2

So.....

anybody see oppurtunity knocking? I do. More later...

heatboy

Gary, why.......

would you cultivate a relationship with someone who cuts you out? It has to go both ways or it won't work. It sounds like you should be looking elsewhere for different plumbing contractor. Preferably, one who won't do this to you.

hb

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JohnNY

For whatever it's worth....

...I'm a New York City Master Plumber's license holder. Thank God my partner (brother) can explain to my 3 two-man crews how to legally vent an island sink because I tend to forget. I got my license to sort of help validate my skills as a professional. College, for me, wasn't in the cards. I am an excellent residential/light commercial heating systems designer/troubleshooter. I've been in countless hydronics courses and seminars since I was 17 years old and enjoy an outstanding reputation among peers in my field.
I, too, am always surprised at how many plumbers are completely clueless when it comes to heating. I don't think there is a plumbing contractor's van in this city that doesn't say "heating" on the side of it and yet I can't find a mechanic or helper, among more than 20 applicants this month, who knows the difference between a steam or hot water boiler.
My father started my business in 1976 and had the foresight to see a void forming in the heating side of the trade. He pushed me to go to IBR school much harder than he pushed me to finish High School (yes, I did both).

On the other hand, I've been on projects where the engineer made grave errors or the A/C contractors were hired to install the hydronics and things went terribly wrong.

I think it should be said, somewhere in this thread, that there are good and bad in every field.

Contracting isn't cheap and shouldn't be an impulse purchase.
Let us be judged, and hired, on the merits of our accomplishments.

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JohnNY

For whatever it's worth....


...I'm a New York City Master Plumber's license holder. Thank God my partner (brother) can explain to my 3 two-man crews how to legally vent an island sink because I tend to forget. I got my license to sort of help validate my skills as a professional. College, for me, wasn't in the cards. I am an excellent residential/light commercial heating systems designer/troubleshooter. I've been in countless hydronics courses and seminars since I was 17 years old and enjoy an outstanding reputation among peers in my field. I, too, am always surprised at how many plumbers are completely clueless when it comes to heating. I don't think there is a plumbing contractor's van in this city that doesn't say "heating" on the side of it and yet I can't find a mechanic or helper, among more than 20 applicants this month, who knows the difference between a steam or hot water boiler. My father started my business in 1976 and had the foresight to see a void forming in the heating side of the trade. He pushed me to go to IBR school much harder than he pushed me to finish High School (yes, I did both).

On the other hand, I've been on projects where the engineer made grave errors or the A/C contractors were hired to install the hydronics and things went terribly wrong.

I think it should be said, somewhere in this thread, that there are good and bad in every field.

Contracting isn't cheap and shouldn't be an impulse purchase. Let us be judged, and hired, on the merits of our accomplishments.


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Mad Dog

As far as I'm concerned.................

plumbing and heating are 2 entirely different - yet related trades. I agree that alot of plumbers should stick to plumbing, but then again, alot of heating guys should know their trade inside and out. I was a plumber first, and learned all I could with that, eventually earing my Master Plumber's licence by wiping a lead joint, drafting up a building, and a rough written test. Plumbing requires a wider range of techniques, knowledge of systems and techniques, and skills, but heating is right behind it. Plumbing is much more forgiving than heating though. If the sink drains - albeit slowly, or gurgling, if water comes out of the taps, and if you don't get leaks, you get paid. Heating is much more quirky and difficult to truly master. Bad plumbers are legion as well as bad heating guys, but a bad plumber can fake it and get away with it alot easier. Since I got into the trades, I took every heating seminar I could read every book I could, and learned the hard way. After, almost 18 years, there is still so much to learn. Mastering plumbing was my first frontier, heating is the next. I love the variety of doing both. Mad Dog

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J.C.A._3

Mad Dog,

I couldn't agree with you more. I happened to find my new job because ,I have a boss that truly appreciates the very points you describe.

He's got some great plumbers, and a couple of them are good at doing heat, but he chose to give ME the nod for being the heat "specialist" for the company. I'm no plumber, and will admit it openly.I know the basic rules, but wanted to "specialize" in heating.

There is so much to know in both fields, and I'm still not covinced that ONE person can do both as effectively as splitting the fields into seperate "specialties".

Granted, I know there are some here that do both , but my personal feeling is...If your here, you love heating more than should be allowed for a "plumber".

My other thoughts go to the guys who"know it all". If you think you know all there is to know about heating, you better take 1 giant step back, and look it over again. I've been at this(heating) for about the same amount of time as Mad Dog, (18 years) and every day I find out SOOO much that I DON"T KNOW!

Much like the "what we do for recreation"thread, I spend lots of time doing homework, to figure where the flaws lie, and trying my best to find the "previous mistakes", and how to correct them.Mr. Milne will attest to this. Chris

Mad Dog

you're right Chris...I was a plumber first and reallly love it,

heating is more intriguing and interesting - much less forgiving Mad Dog

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Why plumbing & heating are so different...

[To me at least]

The art of plumbing is highly concentrated on drain, waste and vent--piping that (ideally) is NEVER full and has ZERO pressure. Supply of domestic water is so forgiving that nearly anything works. Plumbers tend to look at ANY pipe full of pressurized water as "just another pipe". Since the use of domestic water is nearly completely at the will of the occupants they think problems "solve themselves" by modification of HUMAN behavior.

The art of hydronics deals ONLY with piping that is full and pressurized. It must be able to work WITHOUT human intervention regardless of human desire.


BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!!

Troy_3

Wholesalers- worse

I have another ****- different but related. I keep fixing messed up jobs installed by well meaning plumbers that are led astray by uninformed or overzealous wholesalers. The poor guy workin out of his stationwagon has mr. professional wholesaler design a system to compete with my estimate. He puts 400' 1/2" loop lengths on 24" centers in a walkout basement. Staples up 1/2" pex with insulation between the floor joists. Runs it off a cast iron boiler piped with zone valves like it was baseboard. After all it has to run at high temp. anyway. This is in Western NY with 6000deg. days of heat required. And then when it doesn't work the way I explained my design would, I get a pissed off customer to try and help. Why are wholesalers not liable for designs the way I am as a contractor? The start up loser files bankrupcy to get out of trouble and the only guy that made money on the mess skates free to miss lead the next unwitting guy looking for help. I say let's all be responsible!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

To quote Mr. Holohan, "The desire to oversize [heating systems] regularly exceeds the sex drive."

I find it curious that staple-up is BY FAR the most common system resulting in a GENERAL "not enough heat" complaint.

Of course the boiler could likely heat twice that amount of space if the system to which it is connected could actually transfer its heat...

John Abbott

Hey Gary,

> should keep away from hydronic heat unless they

> have had some sort of formal training.

>

> You

> Wallies be the judge.

>

> This was a

> conversation I had with a [Plumbing & Heating]

> contractor last week as I remember it: It went

> something like this:

>

> Hey Freddy (the

> plumber), This little remodel we looked at turned

> out they gutted the place. Looks like they nearly

> doubled the size of the house. Yeah they’re

> turning it into a Mcpalace.Yeah it’s allot bigger

> now. All high-end European plumbing fixtures

> going in too. Steam room, the whole nine

> yards.

>

> I guess the owners decided not to go

> with my radiant floors and towel warmer like we

> talked about when we met with them huh? No

> radiant. They didn’t like the price we came up

> with.

>

> So we’re doing just the plumbing here

> right?

>

> Nope. I got the heat too.

> Baseboard. All baseboard. Theirs a toe-kick in

> the master bath. We’re also putting in an 80 Gal.

> indirect to replace the old gas water heater.

> We’ll just add a couple of zones off the existing

> boiler. That boiler they got down there is plenty

> big for this house. Its something like 200

> thousand BTU’s and it looks like it’s only a few

> years old.” Like I said, We’re just going to add

> three zones of heat and the indirect and that's

> it.

>

> What's the heatload now? I asked.

> Heatload! We don't need to do a heatloss. I know

> how much baseboard to put in. It’s not my first

> remodel you know.

>

>

>

> Dare I ask what type

> of control strategy he’s going to use? I

> wonder,will he prioritize the DHW? How about

> reseting the baseboard temp.?

>

> Nope.

> “That’s the electrician’s job.” ;-)

John Abbott

Plumbers?

Hey Gary,
I take offense at your categorizing a"vast sum of plumbers" as not being competent at heating.I have been in the plumbing and heating trades for over 30 years I love what I do and I am very good at it.I have no formal training yet I am a very competent and successful hydronic and radiant heating contractor.I read every thing available on the subject and attend every seminar within a reasonable distance.I learn something new almost everyday.When you think you know it all you should find a new line of work,no one ever knows it all.I understand the laws of physics as they pertain to my work and I have quite a good understanding of reset controls injection pumping ,mixing etc but I still have no "formal training" so I would by your standards be just " a plumber with no formal training in heating", so by your standards not competent to install heating.I don't think so.You do a great disservice to our industry when you paint "a vast sum of plumbers " with the same brush.I will be at Wetstock III and would like to discuss this matter further with you if you will be in attendance.

John

JohnNY

With all due respect...

I couldn't agree with you guys less.
How many times have you band-aided a bad heating job by adding an air vent somewhere? Or installing a bigger pump? Or playing with aquastats and timers? Anyone ever make a false water line? Over/underfire a boiler?

Does anybody happen to have a can of "boiler solder" in their stock? That stuff seals leaks in the piping too! Or did you know that already?

There's no such thing for domestic water and drain piping.

Any hoople can push heat through a radiator using whatever appalling method, make a room warm, and call it hydronics. It happens all the time.
Be proud that you do it better.

A plumber is very often a slave to architects and designers. Locations are frequently critical.
You think hydronics have come a long way? Have you seen what people are calling plumbing fixtures these days? A few months ago we installed a $12,000 shower diverter set that consumed over 30 feet of 3/4" copper pipe on installation. It uses 36 gpm when fully functioning.
It was NOT forgiving for the first plumber who tried to install it.

How much allowance for "forgiveness" should I place on a bathroom/kitchen renovation on a $5,000,000 apartment in New York City. Do you think the customer would mind if water shows up in the sink when the dishwasher drains? Or if the water pipes bang or rattle? Or if the cold water isn't cold because it is to close to a recirc line?
Or if there is a shadow on the ceiling from a sprinkler cap not fitting just right because the drop pipe is off by 1/8".

Lots of stuff goes wrong with plumbing installations. Plumbing is NO MORE forgiving than any other mechanical system.


I love to install heating. I love that I know as much as I do about it. But, I respect a good Plumber as much as ANY heating professional I've ever met.

I know that plumbers on The Wall tend to "apologize" for their trade. Don't sell yourselves short.
You're part of a long line of skilled craftsmen. You're an asset to your community.

Of course, there's always the outside chance that I take myself too seriously.

Nah, can't be.


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paul lessard_2

Right on John!!!

jackchips_2

John, your right--

"Nah, can't be".

Master number MA 8381.

Cosmo

Have to add my two cents

I am always disgusted when I see/hear one tradesman complaining about another. Of course never to each other's face, no it is always behind each other's back. Yes I know there are bad plumbers out there, and for every bad plumber there is a bad hydronic heating (professional) to go with him.
In my opinion, the problem is that there are more plumbing/heating/cooling jobs out there than really qualified people to do them, so we see people that care more about making a fast buck than the true artisans that care enough to continuously improve their knowledge and skills. You see it isn't the other trade we should be knocking, it is the individual. Plumbing can be just as complicated at times as heating. Same goes for a/c work. I know because I do all three, I am a registered master plumber as well as a very passionate wethead, and also residential a/c. One problem I see is exactly what was mentioned above by Troy.... guys depending on supply house salesmen to design systems. Don't get me wrong, some out there are very knowledgable. But in the end it is the contractor who is responsible. This means either learn how to do your own system design, our hire someone specifically for that. Without doing a heatloss it is impossible to even have an opinion on how to design a job. Sure experiance can get you by, but is it right to sell something that "should" work instead of a properly designed system that "will" work, and efficiently?
The other problem I see is a lack of pride, and workmanship. How about using quality materials? In plumbing it is ridiculous to see jobs installed just outside of a municipality or township (etc)with no inspections that has all foam-core PVC drain/vent, T's installed on horizontal runs where a Y belongs, M-copper water distribution piping, a 4 bathroom house with 3/4" water mains.
Of course even when inspected jobs are done cheap. How will these systems work after 20 years? Shouldn't the piping/ductwork last longer than the equipment? Here are a few things I see that get me angry
Hydronic heating- installing a new boiler without a low water cut-off, not pumping away (hello!), no isolating valves or unions for future service, not checking water in boiler system for proper PH, etc. Piping not installed with isolating hangars to prevent expansion noise, don't get me started with properly accounting for expansion using pex...
Cooling- Using fiberglass ductboard period, except for foil faced (both sides, inside and out)ductboard. I know that a lot of guys use ductboard, but I never will. I use all metal, with flexible round duct for branch ducts when trying to save money. Metal duct can be cleaned over, and over. Flex duct can be replaced, as long as it isn't used behind walls where only metal belongs (whats that all about). My pet peeve with a/c is constantly seeing refrigerant line filter/dryers installed outside where the sun's radiant heat can destroy the filter media inside. Have any of these guys ever read the instructions? If the filter/dryer cannot be located within the condenser cabinet, then install it near the evaporator. Yes this even means in the attic, it might get hot up there, but have you ever pulled an infra-red temp measurement on a piece of metal in the sun????? Don't get me started with properly evacuating refrigerant lines, or designing and testing for airflow......

Even cheap jobs must be done right, isn't that why we are called professionals?




Cosmo Valavanis
Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
Plumbing Heating Cooling

Tony_8

believe it or not

there are A LOT of people who are competent at 2, 3, 4 trades. To use a "broad brush" is unacceptable. Formal training is great, but not required for competency. We all have our strong/weak areas and all of the trades would be miles ahead if everyone would work together.
I would hope that Gary overstated his position when he said "vast majority".
The problem with tearing someone else down is it only brings them to your level. It doesn't elevate you at all.
BTW, I restrict my plumbing activity to new builds. I ALWAYS install the DWV system first. It's much easier to work the heat and potable around it than to make the trout swim upstream !:)

canuckDale

Art

Archimedes said, " A man that works with his hands, is a laborer. A man that works with his mind is a professional. And a man that works with both his hands and mind...is an artist."

We're discussing art right? Not artists?

;-)

Tony_8

i agree

with you wholeheartedly. We must've been typing at the same time. Wholesaler designs are the bane of our industry from our position. The contractor knows how to install it but not why.
As my Grampa used to say, "Boy, you gotta UNDERSTAND what you know".

Mike T., Swampeast MO

\"...chance that I take myself too seriously...\"

"Nah, can't be."

Only an ARTIST thinks that way.

Worthy of a $5 million NYC apartment? Most likely not.

Was everthing placed to blend aesthetics, convenience, comfort, durability and accessibility? Most certainly.

The water stream is EXACTLY where planned and cascades just as I wanted...there was NO OTHER possible place.

Those who neglect the art of their trade will never understand the joy.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

The radiator

This one DOES belong in a $5 million NYC apartment.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Archimedes Screw

Must you be an artist to create art?

Luke Lefever

Some plumbers shouldn't even be doing plumbing, let alone

> Must you be an artist to create art?

Luke Lefever

Some plumbers shouldn't even be doing plumbing, let alone

heating...

Quick story... got a call from a pizza restaurant saying they have urinals that "the plumber" installed yesterday and they don't work right. They're Kohler, can we come out and fix them under warranty? I politely explain that if Kohler thinks it's warranty- then we would do such a thing, but if we go out at the restaurants request, the invoice is coming to them. Get there to scope it out. 4 touchless (optical eye) urinal valves, one control unit in the basement, not installed yesterday. Has been installed for over a year, but never worked right, we are the fourth company to look at it, everyone in the intervening time has screwed something up just so they could say they did something. Somehow, mister installer (I hesitate to call him a plumber) managed to short out the control board, the transformer, all 4 optical eyes, and none of it works. I break the bad news to the restaurant that it's gonna cost something in the neighborhood of $2000 to make it right- they say "We tried to cheap out and took the low bidder- now we're paying the price.. do whatever it takes to make it work."

I guess the free market will sort these guys out of business.

Dan M

plumbers

As a home owner I feel better with a decent plumber working on my hot water system than a forced air guy. As I have whined about before , the forced air guys that " Sure I know boilers" are the most dangerous to your system and pocket book. If people would stick to their areas of expertise and avoid sticking their neck out for a dollar it would save everyone a lot of grief.

Unknown

John


John

Don’t take offense.

I can see now that I have reread the Thread, how some here may find its meaning somewhat ambiguous.


Hey John, I’m sorry that you have taken indignity to my posting. It was not my intention to do so. There is no doubt in my mind that you are a competent and successful plumbing & heating contractor.


My posting intended only to shed some light as to my observations as of late & get some feedback from those in the know. It’s an observation that I feel strongly about. I certainly did not intend to imply that I know it all. Because I most certainly do not. Nor was it my intention to infer that plumbers keep their hands out of the heating business as you seem to think I have.


I as well as you have had no “formal” hydronic training. I really missed the boat when I neglected to attend ME’s courses at Red Rocks while I was living in CO. My hydronic eyes were only opened after I reading Pumping Away and by spending much time with you Wallie types.


I do not believe that I am doing a disservice to our industry by implying that plumbing is most certainly not heating. After all there was not one heating question on my Master plumbers exam.That being said, do you really think I should find another line of work?

Further, I think that some people are learning simply by reading this Thread.

Further, If my post was in fact doing the industry a disservice, don’t you think Dan would have lifted it from The Wall by now?

Unfortunately, I can not make it to Denver to discuss this with you fin person. I as well as you can only hope to attend “every” seminar within a reasonable distance. Me being in MA makes this one non essential for me to be in attendance. I as well learn something new almost everyday and I’m quite sure that we both have an awful lot in common. Wetstock 1 was awesome. I learned allot that day.

Chill out man, Its only the freakin internet :-)

Bill_14

Please don't

knock plumbers. I know some that will blow you away with their versatile skills, their knowledge, their work ethic, their good attitude and their fantastic common sense. I know some that are just the opposite.

However, I know some pipefitters and welders that fit into the same category. It is the same with every trade, every craft.

I don't appreciate broad and general cheap shots. It isn't fair to knock a trade just because of a bad experience. I just don't understand that mentality.

Bill

Unknown

Believe it or not Tony



Yup Tony.

I did overstate myself by using the word vast. I hope I can be forgiven.

Formal training is great, but not required for competency.

Eloquently said.

Tony_8

see my post above

"believe it or not" as well as some others here on this thread. Quite a few of us do AC, Plumbing, FA, gas, oil, LP, Refrigeration, HP's (air and ground source). I also do a PILE of ice machines ! If you think you don't want me on your boiler tomorrow because you saw me w/ a set of refer gauges today at a Pizza Hut, your loss.

Tony_8

accepted by me !

Tony_8

hope you don't mind

I "borrowed" your line today. Gave everyone there pause for thought