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Comments
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I stated
that if in fact a low water cutoff device is used, then the reducing valve should be shut off. The reducing valve is needed to initially introduce proper static fill to the system. Some manufacturers of these devices state to shut it off afterwards and some do not. The jury is still out on that subject and it is entirely up to the individual installing the device.
Second, the flow rate of 3/4" pipe is only 39,000 btuh at a 20 degree delta T and 4.2' feet of head per 100' with a velocity of 135 feet per minute. The capacity of 1" is 71,000 btuh and 1-1/4" is 160,000. These are the standards by which the boiler outlets are designed.
Third, we do have our boilers tested, as required, by an independent testing authority to determine the AFUE efficiencies. Let me assure you that this procedure is a bit more in depth and detailed than what you are describing. If you would like to argue this fact, feel free to contact our engineering department. They will be glad to also enlighten you as to why removal of the barometric damper and combustion chamber and interuption of the low limit at night are not such good ideas. Hope this helps.
Glenn Stanton
Burnham Hydronics0 -
response to Glenn Harrison
I am sorry. The flow calculating formula was screwed up by the computer. Actually it is: 106 x 560/ 60 x 8 x 20 = 6.18 GPM. Close to your result. Velocity noise in the basement consideration was disregarded because of the short piping distance from the boiler to the manifolds, improbability of simultaneous work of all zones and 6.18 GPM is close to 4 GPM.
The total baseboard length is somewhat lower than total heat loss. Many other aspects were taken into consideration: wooden pellet stove, space available, furniture, esthetics and the possibility to add baseboards in case of lack of heat or increase water temperature to 220*F. Last winter the system worked fine. The boiler with the lowest available output has been chosen- 3 section cast iron boiler with 0.85 GPH nozzle (oil pressure 145 p.s.i.).
Hot water on demand. The summer- winter switch installed in good looking box in the kitchen. If you flip it, in 6.5 minutes you have boiler at 180*F (about 10 gallons). If you need more hot water, you either flip the switch again or leave it in the winter position. The boiler will work on stand by principle controlled by the low aquastat.
I agree that pressure regulator could be installed on make up line, but the line should be permanently closed.
Low water cut off switch should be installed on all water boilers. Possibility to run without water is actually the same as for a steam boiler. For a closed system drop of water pressure indicates that the boiler probably soon will run out of water. Also a low pressure cut off switch is much cheaper and easy to install. It is much more difficult and sometimes impossible to install probe type low water cut off switch.
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response to Glenn Harrison
I am sorry. The flow calculating formula was screwed up by the computer. Actually it is: 106 x 560/ 60 x 8 x 20 = 6.18 GPM. Close to your result. Velocity noise in the basement consideration was disregarded because of the short piping distance from the boiler to the manifolds, improbability of simultaneous work of all zones and 6.18 GPM is close to 4 GPM.
The total baseboard length is somewhat lower than total heat loss. Many other aspects were taken into consideration: wooden pellet stove, space available, furniture, esthetics and the possibility to add baseboards in case of lack of heat or increase water temperature to 220*F. Last winter the system worked fine. The boiler with the lowest available output has been chosen- 3 section cast iron boiler with 0.85 GPH nozzle (oil pressure 145 p.s.i.).
Hot water on demand. The summer- winter switch installed in good looking box in the kitchen. If you flip it, in 6.5 minutes you have boiler at 180*F (about 10 gallons). If you need more hot water, you either flip the switch again or leave it in the winter position. The boiler will work on stand by principle controlled by the low aquastat.
I agree that pressure regulator could be installed on make up line, but the line should be permanently closed.
Low water cut off switch should be installed on all water boilers. Possibility to run without water is actually the same as for a steam boiler. For a closed system drop of water pressure indicates that the boiler probably soon will run out of water. Also a low pressure cut off switch is much cheaper and easy to install. It is much more difficult and sometimes impossible to install probe type low water cut off switch.
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Cold start is not really cold.
Don't be frightened by the definition of cold start.
In the summer low aquastat normally set at 140 *F with a differential of 20*F. Hot start will be at 120*F and cold start at 65*F. The 55 F* difference is not so great compared to a few thousand derees of the fire and even 400-500*F of the exhaust gases. It should be no soot deposit if you have clean smokeless fire.neither with
cold nor hot start. If your boiler survived it's first cold start, It will survive many more, because it is designed that way.
The boiler in my house had worked on demand principle in the summer (cold start) for five years and I did not notice any unusual soot deposit, when the fire was clean. Italian made Luna 24fi boiler also works on hot water on demand principle
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an argument....
could be made for mandatory certification of ALL technicians before they could be licensed to work in the mechanical areas of hydronics.
It's not for us I'm concerned, but rather, the unsuspecting customers who could potentially be placed in harms way.
But that Genie has escaped the bottle with direct DIY sales for hydronic systems that actually require a high degree of skills to properly install and set up & this type of "out there" logic is no doubt just the tip of the iceberg.
Then again, maybe he's just stirring the pot in an effort to make us defend what we know to be safe and proper practices. Installing barometric draft dampers, utilizing proper fuel filters, keeping combustion chambers in tact for designed combustion patterns/air flow, using suitable combustion analysis equipment to ensure our (the customer's) equipment is tuned to perform at its best over a wide range of atmospheric conditions, doing an annual clean & tune - with instruments, adequate fresh air make up, looking for outside influences that adversely affect combustion such as laundry room or pool chemicals, securing flue pipe with screws, sealing and annual inspection of chimneys, looking out for the ultimate safety of our customers and (for the oil dealers) lastly - selling them the oil, which is not nearly as important as any of the above. Perhaps this string would be best served by beginning to list the right things we do & not concentrating on what's wrong with our perception of the "Mad Russian's" approach. Besides which, he doesn't seem mad (in the angry sense), just misguided!
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
You do what you want
if it pleases you. But I would be careful bending the suggested practices that are spelled out by the various boiler manufacturers that monitor this site. I was referring to the realistic likelyhood of the coil gasket leaking from contraction and corroding the iron surfaces and not soot buildup. Adding devices to boilers such as high and low pressure switches that have not been certified and tested by the manufacturers can be a liability issue when something occurs in someones home other than yours. I would also stick with tested and approved devices such as barometric dampers and pressure reducing valves in other's homes. Installation and operation manuals for these appliances are not printed and shipped to use to keep one's knees clean. My advice is to stick with the accepted practices, stop trying to reinvent the wheel and to stay out of trouble. So be it that we disagree. You do it your way and we'll do it ours and may we not take this any further simply because it is going nowhere.
Glenn Stanton0 -
Alex
I hate to disagree with you, but how can you call 6 gpm close to 4 gpm when in terms of math, it is 50% more 4 GPM. Plus, the 4 gpm on the chart I have for 3/4" pipe is a MAXIMUM flow for that size pipe, so I think I am safe in saying that you are wrong in your pipe sizing. I also just read your "Find a Contractor" ad and realized that you are using a common return. Since this is 3/4" pipe, how long is the longest length of return pipe. This is where you have to have 1" pipe to provide the proper flow from your 60,000 BTU's of baseboard. You are running an extremely high velocity, which will cause noise and excessfriction wear on the piping, plus I would be willing to bet you are stressing out that pump with mutiple zones calling due to high head. Also, am I reading you correctly in that you are using the pump chart to determine your pipe sizing chart? I was taught that you use a pipe sizing chart to size your piping, and then use the pump chart to determine what size pump you need to move the water based on the piping and load you have connected to the pump.
Another question for you. You said you have approximatly 60,000 BTU's of baseboard, but you are firing the boiler at .85 GPH @ 145 PSI which is 1.02 GPH actual firing rate. Since a gallon of #2 oil is 140,000 BTU's, if memory serves me correctly, you have a 140,000 BTU boiler. WHY is your boiler more than twice the size of your baseboard output. This completely blows my mind. Also, in your response you said you can increase the length of the baseboard for more heat if needed, and or turn up the boiler to 220º. Why wouldn't you just do a room by room heat loss calc and put in the length of baseboard needed to heat the rooms properly at design outdoor temp for your area, and keep the temp at 180º, which is a more efficent temp, less fuel consuming temp. Also why don't you go with a boiler reset to regulate the boiler temp so that you aren't always running the baseboard at 180º. Why would you size the baseboard based on having a pellet stove. With seven zones I would assume that the area that the pellet stove is in could be shut off, but when the stove is off there would be the full amount of baseboard available to heat the space. Also, if space consideration was a problem, there is 1" high output baseboard availble to meet these needs (see, 3/4" is NOT always the standard).
Another thing, how hard can it be to put in a tee with 3/4" tap in it in the supply or return, and install a Watch Guard brand LWCO. I cannot think of a situation anywhere that this could not be done. If you have room to put in a circulator, you can find room to put in a LWCO, especially since the one I use is about the size of 2 "D" size flashlight batteries. I still agree that the pressure switches are a nice touch too. By the way, what is the relief valve setting on that boiler, as you said the high pressure switch is at 40PSI, but almost all boilers I have worked on have a 30 pound rating.
One last thing, if you were installing in my area (Chicago) and you told somebody that they would have to manually call for hot water, AND wait 5 minutes, you would be loudly laughed at, followed by being thrown out the door. I can't think of ONE customer of mine that would settle for anything other than automatic, instant, and continuous hot water, and I have a hard time believing that other parts of the country are any different, although you obviously found someone who could deal with it.0 -
Alex ?
Just a quick question ?
This summer when your customer wants to take a shower, and the boiler is cold start, and he has to wait for the boiler to come up to temperature ( since there is no storage and you can't make 125 degree hot water with a 70 degree boiler ) will he ask for the $ 2,000.00 back ?
Just curious.
Scott
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Very good one scott
send it home...Mad Dog
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relpy to Mr.Glenn Harris
Reply to Mr. Glenn Harris,
1.39,000 BTU for ¾ ports,71,000 BTU for 1 ports and so on.. Where did these numbers come from? Probably, from a bible. For ¾ ports it is only 4GPM. You can pump 10GPM through these ports with 0.26ft friction loss per foot. To check the velocity noise I connected 2ft of ¾ pipe to my garden tap. Because of my water plumbing system characteristic I could achieve only 8GPM flow. No noise whatsoever. Then I used the stethoscope .The same results. The flow was measured by filling the premeasured bucket. 30 seconds to fill a 4gallon bucket was measured by a watch.
2.In my last reply about cold start calculations I forgot the heat capacity of 350 pounds of the cast iron core. So, in 6.5 min after the cold start you will in effect have 15 gallons of 180* F water.
3.I still think PRV should not be installed at all .As you explained, it is needed to prevent flooding in the basement in case of an accidental opening of the fill up valve. But without PRV you will have minor flooding in the basement right away, that will probably be noticed and corrected. With PRV in that case you can potentially have a major flood in the living quarters in case of leaking of the heating system. Some kind of a guard or warning on the fill up valve will work fine. May be stop and drain valve in that case is better, than a ball valve.
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reply to mr. ron jr
It is easy to test your boiler yourself
see attachment
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standards
These flow rates are proven, and acceptable. They prevent erosion in the piping, especially after fittings. Noises generally occur near fittings. Please document independant proof that these flow rates that are almost double do not contribute to pipe failure. Please use a scource that is known to the trade. I do not agree with your testing method or your proof.
A 007 Taco circulator will give you less than 12 GPM on 100' of 1 1/4" copper tube, with an average number of fittings. Not 15 or 20 gpm on 3/4" tube.
Unless each and every zone has 65-70 feet of baseboard on it, you do not have a 20° drop between supply and return, unless you count how much oversized the boiler is. This actually is a temperature rise through the boiler, not a loss through the baseboard. The difference is that the boiler will run steady state if the rise and drop match. If the baseboard drop is fewer degrees than the boiler rise, the burner will short cycle. While it is running, though, you will see the higher difference.
If you do see the 20° drop, the flow rate is a lot lower than you believe it to be.
And 2.) you will have 15 gallons of 180° boiler water. You will only have about a quart of domestic water. You can use it intermittantly at a flow rate of about 3 gpm. There isn't a first hour rating, because it won't last an hour at anything more than a trickle. There are standby losses through the jacket and through the stack with a tankless coil. You lose those 15 gallons of heated water EVERY CYCLE.
Since you compare cold start when you describe your comparisons, only the very first cycle of an indirect meets your standard. The indirect STAYS HOT, and the tankless requires reheating as the chimney cools it, or ABSOLUTELY EVERY CYCLE in your method of water heating. There is no comparison. Insullation on indirect water heaters is far superior to boilers, and there IS NO FLUE connection to constantly chill the tank.
Why would a customer use a boiler that holds 15 gallons of water when modern wet base oil boilers hold half that? If one is concerned about efficiency, that would be a concern.
A low pressure switch is not a low water cut off. In your example of a shorted aquastat, the boiler could be 350° and running bone dry, with steam pressure holding your switch closed. A LWCO would stop the burner. No doubt about it, not the same device.
Please show where we can see the same independant evidence that you are using, rather than making up tests to manufacture evidence. Remember, it is the article that you authored and published that we are trying to understand. It doesn't add up.
Noel0 -
So what's the deal Mr alex........................
are you gonna make a real case or not???? Mad Dog
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Reply to Alex
Of course you wouldn't hear noise thru two feet of pipe open at one end, no resistance to flow! Let's look at a different point of view. In my house, I have 3/4" water lines, and you can without a doubt hear the water flowing at rates above 4 GPM such as a shower, bath or outside sprinkler. I dare you to deny that you don't hear water running in the lines in your house when you run a faucet, especially a tub or outdoor faucet! As far as my numbers, your damn right I got them out of a bible, THE BELL AND GOSSETT PUMP COMPANY writes these "bibles" that I refer to. They have been writen by engineers whom specifically determined these GPM's and BTU capacities before you or I were born, also known as "Dead Men" by us "Wallies". You can also find these numbers in books writen by the host of this site, Dan Holohan, so I suggest you be very careful in what you say about the numbers I have refered to, as if you don't believe them, then you are insulting Dan and his vast knowledge. By the way, the numbers I am refering to are based on a .04 per foot friction loss, which puts your .26 at almost 7 TIMES HIGHER. I'm sorry to see you can live with that, because no one else here certainly would be able to.
Also, I noticed you did not address my boiler rating versus baseboard output numbers. Is this because they are corect, and I have just shown that you put in a boiler that is twice as big as your baseboard output? If so, than obiously your system is REAL efficient (NOT) and must be short cycling. I would be willing to bet that you have a much higher than 20º drop accross your supply and returns if you have multiple zones running.
I also just reread item # 2 of your last post, Do you have a mixing valve on that tankless to keep that 180º water you just refered to down to 120º at the faucets, or are you counting on your customers not to burn them selves? I ask because I don't remember you mentioning it previously. If you don't, you just put yourself in your own category of lawsuits.0 -
Reply to Mr. Glenn Harrison
1.I am sorry, I did not read that basic book The Bell And Gosset . but I certainly will. For my flow rate through the pipes information I used Audel HVAC library volume III . I think the data in both books was derived from the same hydraulic laws. You should only interpret it correctly. And I didnt expect to assault anybody just by doing water flow calculations.
2.By saying DT in my seven zone system will be much higher that 20 F, you mean ,that my calculations of the water flow rate with the result at 150% excess are wrong. Please ,show me at what point I am wrong .
3.The tempering valve , of course , has been installed .You, probably can see it on the picture. 180 F domestic water temperature in the summer could be explained by the intention to have summer and winter temperatures as close as possible in order not to reset the tempering valve.
4.I dont quite understand your question about the boiler output. I repeat that with lowest input available 3 section boiler with tank less coil has been installed .Out of three 0.65 ,0.85 GPM recommended oil flow rates, 0.85 nozzle has been installed .The reason not to install the more economical 0.65 nozzle was to shorten cold start time and reduce chances of nozzle clogging .With 145psi oil pressure it will mean about 150 MBTUH. Please explain what do you mean by the short cycling .
I believe that many of you guys if not all still think ,that my article should never have been published .But what about millions of steel boilers all over the country are running at below 30% efficiency ? Leave them alone , lighten up and enjoy the life ? I am sorry ,I cant do it . I still have obligations to my new hospitable country .
In my difficult situation it looks like the easiest way out is ,to prove , that I am right in one particular issue. (my wild joker is still intact). It is , probably ,boiler port size issue. If I can prove that mysterious, elusive phantom , turbulence noise does not exist ,then 1¼ port size is wrong .Right?
You are saying, that in my test, pipe is too short and there is no valve at the end of it.I dont think it is really relevant ,because we are talking about very short lengths of ¾ piping between the boiler and the manifolds and the ports themselves . I dont believe , that 007 circulators can create noise in any kind of flow or piping configuration .My house heating system has 6 zones and ½ piping and I never heard any turbulence noise . Of course, there should be no air in the system .What, if with 007 circulator I will pump out water from my 1500 gal. fish tank into a bucket through 10 or 100ft of 3/4 pipe ? I will look for noise with my stethoscope. Will it be conclusive ?
Another approach
Let us look at the problem from a common sense point of view .
If we have at some point only one loop working ,then we have, let us say , 100ft of ¾ piping and we cannot change it whether we have turbulence noise or not. Under our control is only the ports size and the piping from the ports to manifolds. If we choose 1 ¼ size for both we will probably, save 5-10 % of total friction loss. I dont think it is worthy .
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The 'Mad Russian' is dangerous to our industry
I will not attempt to try to go through each item that he has presented. Nonetheless, he is presenting information in a manner that is not productive. It is based upon some basic knowledge that is totally incomplete and results in erroneous conclusions.
I am shocked that the magazine published it. I think it was irresponsible of them, although I bet it increases readership, by instilling controversy. At least for a while.
Steve Levine
Slant/Fin Corp.0 -
I am sorry,i could not fit my reply into available space. Is it imporrtant where i put my reply?
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If i am wrong in almost everything, would you, please,answer one simple question. In the combustion chart of a test kit the smallest digit is 38%. That means: all oil fired units in this country have at least 38% efficiency. True or false?
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One last response
Point #1, I'm glad to hear you are going to check out the B&G book. Might I also suggest you click on "Books and More" to the left of this thread and order a couple of Dan's books, such as "Pumping Away", or "Primary-Secondary Piping Made Easy", as they have most the same info as the B&G book that I referred to does. Plus if your not happy with them, Dan has a money back guarantee. Adn if you keep the books, then you will have helped suport this site.
Point#2 I'm just saying that I would be willing to bet that you have more than a 20º drop when you have, let's say 3 or more zones going at the same time.
Point # 3 I would like to apologize about the mixing valve. I did not see it. Glad to hear you have one.
Point #4 My question is this, why is your boiler set to fire at 150,000 BTU's BUT the output of the baseboard as you sized it is just under 60,000 BTU's? I'm also assuming that once the boiler is up to temp, it must short cycle the burner, especialy if you only have one or two zones calling, at which point you are trying to put 150,000 BTU's into into, let's say 10,000 or so BTU's of baseboard output.
As far as your steel boiler issue goes, I do not work on them, so I'm in no position to discuss it. I will let someone else debate it with you.
As far as your last statement, if you still insist that boiler ports are oversized and wastefull, which contradicts what EVERY boiler manufacturer says in the correct size for the BTU rating of there boilers, then so be it. I just can't beleive that you want to beleieve that every engineer for every manufacturer of every boiler made is wrong.
Good luck on your future installs. I will be very interested in seeing how your current systems are in 5 or 10 years from now.0 -
Flawed logic....
if that's the case, does it mean that my car can't go faster than 100 MPH because that's as high as the speedometer goes? I don't think so. 38% might be the case for a fouled burner/boiler, but not the norm.
ME0 -
ddddd
dddd0 -
Its not just a noise issue...
as much as its a hydraulic errosion corrosion issue as shown by Noel in the photo he posted. A classic example of long term hydraulic errosion corrosion is the Grand Canyon...
There's a REASON this stuff is sized the way it is, and it's not based on guess work.
I too question AFUE versus actual thermal efficiency, but I still keep my flow rates within reason on any given pipe size, and I ALWAYS follow the manufacturers instructions as it pertains to setting up burners and exhaust systems. You my fine Russian friend are taking on a HUGE amount of liability should anything ever go wrong with your systems. I'd hate to see you end up in the poor house here in the land of the free...
ME0 -
I'm pretty sure
That the most fouled up boiler with the crappiest burner does not run near as low as 38 % combustion efficiency . The lowest I've recorded was 60% in an old Federal boiler with the baffles out , and an old shellhead burner . But I'm not the expert on old equpment , doing installs mainly . I am assuming that Alex's test kit chart begins at 38 % because its a good starting point , not because efficiencies can be lower than that . Has anyone seen anything running in the teens ? 20s ? And what ulterior motive would the maker of the test chart have by not including numbers lower than 38 % ?0 -
M.R., I agree
any residential or light commercial boiler with a 750-degree F stack temp definitely needs attention. This indicates a serious waste of fuel. But I've seen plenty of dry-base steel and cast-iron boilers that show decent efficiency. "Not all older boilers are over the hill" (Frank Gerety's quote). The exceptions are the old round "pancake" or "snowman" boilers. These could not be expected to show better than 40% efficiency on oil or gas, according to some of my Dead Men's Books.
I have a friend who is an excellent combustion man. I have watched him lower an older boiler's stack temp by 100 degrees F and more, simply by proper burner adjustment and flueway baffling. Think how much fuel we'd save if every combustion man was that good.
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Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
170 feet of 3/4\" baseboard...
Here is a copy n paste from above .
2.You are so certain that 100MBTU boiler should have supply and return ports 1 ¼ . And I can tell you why. Because it was that way ( even larger ) with all the boiler manufacturers for so many years. And it is, of course, very impressive. But let us look at the situation from different point of view.
The heating system with that kind of boiler needs 10GPM flow at 20* F differential. From the curve of Taco 007 circulator at that flow we will have maximum system friction loss at about 8 ft. I dont think, that you insist to change ¾ baseboards to 1¼ to match the boiler ports , do you? By the logic and common sense all or most of the piping should be done with ¾ pipes.
Considering that all the piping and baseboards will be divided into few zones, we will probably stay within 8 ft friction loss limit. Otherwise we need high velocity circulator . Anyway, if we use chart of Audel HVAC library volume 3 appendix B table B-5 we can find, that effective length of our system should be 30 ft. The length of 1 ¼ both ports is probably less than 1ft, which gives, us 3% reduced friction loss. .It is insignificant .
Alex, I want to address this paragraph. It makes little sense to me.
Normally, the zones are laid out first. The length of fin tube on each zone, and the gpms, and the water temperature determine the temperature drop. It isnt assumed. It matters to the boiler, and the sizing.
You cannot put all of your baseboard on a single zone, because the temperature drop will be greater than 20° F. Also, you cannot assume a 20° F. drop on a run with only twenty feet of fin tube on it, you must calculate your temperature drop. 67 of that baseboard will give you 20° F. drop. 34 will give you 10. You cannot assume.
Once you calculate your temperature drop, and your loop lengths, you can select your pipe size.
From your description, ½ and ¾ pipe have the same head on a Taco 007 as 1 ¼ pipe. Not so. Quote, From the curve of Taco 007 circulator at that flow we will have maximum system friction loss at about 8 ft. We also should have about 170 ft. of ¾ baseboards.
From your description, you believe that 170 of baseboard and piping can be assigned a value from the Taco chart. This simply isnt true.
From your length of pipe, and your btuh requirements, you can pick a size for the pipe. Only then, can you figure the flow rate and pump curve GPMs. The pump curve relies on the pipe being sized right. It depends on 0.04 loss per foot. Your example is wrong and misleading to those that dont do the math. 0.26 is much greater than 0.04.
Keep in mind that if you only see a ten degree drop on your zones, the pump and pipe need to carry double the GPMs that they would at twenty degrees delta T. That means bigger. You must know your ACTUAL, not assumed temperature loss.
Since you are being vague on actual loop lengths of each zone, and actual fin tube lengths on each zone, we cannot be specific. Suffice it to say that your formulas dont work.
Quote, We also should have about 170 ft. of ¾ baseboards. I would split that into three loops, and feed them with 1 ¼ copper. Then, a Taco 007 will drive them, because the longest loop determines the head, and it would be less than 150, or about 9 of head. 170 of baseboard with pipe added to connect it will NOT give you 10 GPM at 8 of head. Sorry.
I can see that you arent trying to understand what we are saying, but trying to convince us that we have it wrong. As you can see, several of us have looked deeply into what you have to say, to see if it is true. Please try to look at both sides, Alex.
Noel0 -
summary
To all:
Summary
I think its time to close our discussion and let me try to summarize it.
1.Steel boilers and efficiency test.
It is impossible to deny the undeniable and nobody really tried. Whether we like it or not, we have millions of boilers working below 30% efficiency. For those, who have never seen a boiler working below 60% efficiency, I repeat that the combustion chart at low efficiency gives the wrong results.
2.Smoke detector.
You guys are proud to have passion for the oil industry. I am too. But in some areas, like in New York City, where oil directly competes with natural gas, wouldnt it be nice to claim, that now we burn oil as clean as gas and to assure that, we have very sensitive smoke detectors.
3.Hot water on demand.
This is optional. If installed, the customer can use it or not. But dont forget the widespread passion to use everything energy efficient and reduce pollution.
4. PRV.
I think everybody agrees, that if LWCO is present, PRV should be installed on permanently shut make up line and used only to fill up the system. Doesnt it sound bizarre?
5. Draft diverter
I pledge to install that dangerous device in my future applications (if any) even if it is not needed.
6. Indirect versus tankless coil.
It is still open for discussion (remember wild joker?)
7. LWCO and high-pressure switch.
Low pressure cut out switch in combination with high-pressure control switch is better protecting the boiler than probe type LWCO. By the way, only their installation (except draft diverter) could be considered violation of boiler manufacturer instructions. But I dont think any manufacturer will object it.
8. Boiler ports size controversy.
In that issue the best way out is compromise. Lets accept 1 standard. That size has, for example, Polaris 130MBTU/h input residential gas water heater, or MP1 Model MZ 20-40C gas fired boiler with 142MBTU/h input and some other European design boilers. Even if we have ¾ ports we will have only about 0.2 ft. of additional friction loss at 10 GPM flow. Let us leave fewer reasons for Europeans to laugh at us.
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I'm
not sure who you are preaching to, Alex, because you are a lonely man in a big room.
I think I've seen enough of this nonsense about your 30% efficiency claims, this Rube Goldberg smoke "detector", a cold start tankless coil boiler, and port size reductions theories. And etc.
Here, in America, as professionals, contractors must follow manufacturer's guidelines. This is the only way to ensure consistent and predictable performance. Liability is a huge issue. I think Noel summarized things very well.
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Now that we're done with this
I want to thank you all for being civil and for making your points in a calm and reasonable way. You may not win hearts and minds every time, but you always show professionalism and maturity and I appreciate that. Thanks, lads.Retired and loving it.0
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