Believe you or not: $2,000 tip for the job:

Mad Russian

In 2850 sq. ft. two story existing house new hydronic heating system with tankless coil for hot water and seven separate zones has been installed. All the innovations, described in my article "Adding Efficiency" in May 2003 issue of "Fuel Oil News" magazine were implemented: smoke detector, low water and high pressure cut off switches, hot water on demand, no draft diverter and no pressure regulator on make up line. For more details click on "Find a contractor"- zip 12565.



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Robert O'Connor

Oil Tech Talk

Your article has caused some discussion at Oil Tech Talk. Oil Tech Talk is an oil heat tech's web site. Perhaps you would like to respond to some of the comments.
Link:
http://disc.server.com/Indices/24736.html

Joe Grosso

Alex

We have been waiting for you to come over to oil tech talk to respond to all of the talk about your article in fuel oil news. Number one is you state that a fuel nozzle will start to foul with or without a fuel filter on the job within a couple of weeks or months no matter what.This IMHO is against every piece of educational article I have ever studied or seminar I have ever gone to.Second the idea that fuel oil companies do not give a damn about installing or maintaining a heating system to work at proper eff level,because all they care about is selling fuel is insulting and just plain wrong.Third your idea about tankless coil being a better way to go than a indirect water is against almost everyone on this site,plus I guess buderus and veissmann do not know what they are talking about.

Mad Russian

Response to comments on my article

Hello guys,
It looks like a hive has been disturbed, some guys even swearing and spitting at me. It is not the way to discuss a technical problem. Take it easy.
Whatever is printed in my article is correct and I can prove it. Also, I cordially invite anyone and everyone to come and see for themselves.
1. I deeply apologize to all honest oil companies who were outraged by the "Conflict of Interest" part of my article. However, I can name at least four oil companies in our area that have never conducted an efficiency test. A manager of a big oil company once asked me how much would I charge for the test. The owner of a small oil company told me that no test is needed because everything is perfectly set at the factory.
2. Whether you like it or not, smoke detector is working, even assembled by a handyman. In case of commercial production it will work better and cost only a few dollars. A few boilers and one water heater were saved by a smoke detector from being covered with soot. In case of the water heater oil pressure is dropped to 23 p.s.i.
3. I never said that an oil filter is not needed. It is a very essential part of the system, and the finer the filter, the better. But even the best filter cannot prevent deposit of long hydrocarbon (paraffin) molecules or other contaminants in the nozzle. You can get more information from "Carlin" nozzle manufacturer, who did extensive research on nozzle clogging.
4. If you don't care about saving precious imported oil and reducing pollution, that's ok. Some people do, myself included. A simple $50.00 device, "hot water on demand," can provide it. In any case, you don't need hot water at night, do you? Regular timer can turn off your boiler during the night, if you have a tankless coil.
5. Tankless coil is definitely better than indirect water heater in all aspects. Some of the indirects are unsafe and I already filed a report with Better Business Bureau and the matter is now under investigation. I am going to post an article on "The Wall" on May 22nd. Meanwhile I recommend that devoted patriots be prepared for possible lawsuits in the future.
6. In the efficiency test formula it does not matter what system is used for the specific heat capacity, because the ratio is used.
7. I apologize for my broken English, if no greater flaw could be found.
It is a pity that no one mentioned the problem with steel boilers, or efficiency test at low efficiency range. Those are the real problems of the industry.


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Unknown

I accept your offer

Please show the proof that indirect water heaters on a cold start oil boiler cost more to run and are equal to a tankless coil in all other ways.

Please show the math that passes enough heat, within the boiler's operating temperature range, for a 2000+ square foot house in the Northeast, using only 3/4" pipe.

I won't ask about the draft regulator, I tried to understand this when Jim Davis explained it. I find that the CO2 and Smoke readings change with changes in draft.

Changes in draft occur in real life. Certainly in an unprotected chimney, outdoors, that doesn't clear the peak of the house. Thanks for the picture.

I am qualified to insist that you use draft regulators on every Slant/Fin oil boiler that you start or service. I can also assure you that the tappings won't be changed to 3/4" in any Slant/Fin boilers.

Noel

rob

Mad Russian

Dave Yates (PAH)

cold start?

You're using a cold start with a domestic coil? How long does it take for your customer to obtain hot water at full temps? What's the heat source make & model #? Did you install any sort of scald guard protection for the fluctuating temperatures? Are you activating the boiler via a flow switch? Doesn't that waste a lot of water while waiting for the boiler to heat up? I can comprehend that there might be a decent burner run time if the customer is utilizing a bathing area, but won't there be a lot of short cycling for hand washing, shaving, etc...? Won't that lead to sooting problems and potential damage from flue gas condensation? Is this an approved operation method by the boiler manufacturer?

No draft diverter? How do you ensure stabilized and steady-state draft conditions under varying outdoor weather conditions? Cold vs hot chimney draft? Having observed the wildly fluctuating draft conditions on the chimney side of draft diverters, I'm wondering how adversely affected the efficiency will be during extremely windy outdoor conditions.

By removing insulation to improve heat transfer, were you referring to the combustion chamber and/or target wall(s)? Doesn't that void the manufacturer's warranty?

Are you using post & pre purge?

What's your background? I'm curious because you certainly have expressed some vastly different views from what I've been taught these past several decades.

The efficiency ratings you profess for steel boilers is shockingly low. Can you verify that through actual fuel usage and degree-day tracking? Seems to me that that would be the ultimate proof for actual system-wide efficiency. Take the rating plate info, the degree day info and plug in the actual fuel usage. Undeniable end results.

For instance: My own home-made excel program tells me I'll see approximately 1,270 gallons of fuel oil usage in my area of the country (average 2,200 run hours per season) if I have an 84,000 Btu heat loss on a zero degree day and I'm using an appliance with 83% efficiency. If that efficiency drops to 25%, I should see an average annual consumption of 4,218 gallons of fuel oil! Yowza, I sure won't be expecting a 2k tip from that customer.

Color me curious!

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rudy_2

Please Alex, lighten up.....

Hey Alex, could be some spittin’ and looks like there is some swearin’ going on, but it appears to me you pretty much brought it on yourself.

Lighten up a bit.

You publish an article, some of which contradicts about a million years worth of experience from all those combined together on this discussion board (including the “Dead Men” - we read all of Dan’s books cover to cover, so we’re pretty much able to include them as well….).

More importantly, this a group of folks that have a tremendous passion for this industry and are very, very open to discussion and debate on any topic.

And you come here saying something about a $2,000 tip… whether we “Believe it or not”….. ???

When I ran service, I was thrilled when a little old lady customer gave us a plate of fresh baked cookies and said how nice it was with us working in the basement – reminded her of when she could hear the voices of her now dead husband and his buddies “workin’ on somethin” in the basement…….

Geeze, and all I got was a plate of cookies!!!!!

And then post a long continuous list of issues (and please use the space bar on your keyboard a little more frequently)– that some folks might even agree with if you went into greater detailed explanations.

Good grief, Ffp was easier to get along with - and a lot more fun to have around!! (By the way, anybody seen the lad?)

Again, lighten up.

That aside, my thoughts are pretty much:

1.“I can name at least four oil companies in our area that have never conducted an efficiency test”

Just four? I think we are all aware of this. And as "The Dean" once said “Oil burners don’t create soot, oil burner technicians create soot”.

2. “Whether you like it or not, smoke detector is working, even assembled by a handyman.”

Sorry, I don’t have a clue what you’re getting at.

3 “ I never said that an oil filter is not needed.”

OK, glad we got that issue cleared up.

4”If you don't care about saving precious imported oil and reducing pollution, that's ok. Some people do, myself included.”

Again, please lighten up.
I would agree that shutting down a domestic h2o tank when it’s not needed is a good idea. My own domestic supply is on a timer that shuts it down at night. However, I’d guess there are times when something like this wouldn’t be appropriate. Like when a customer “don’t care about saving precious imported oil…….” They want piping hot water out of the any tap in the house 24/7/365.
We can talk about this one some more, but only if you lighten up.

5”Tankless coil is definitely better than indirect water heater in all aspects.”

Please, more info…. You make some claims with not a lot of specifics.

And lighten up on the lawsuit thing. This is America, we can sue anybody, anytime for anything. Doesn’t really mean much with out some FACTS, right George?

6” In the efficiency test formula it does not matter what system is used for the specific heat capacity, because the ratio is used.”

Oh no, not another Testo vs Bacharach debate!!!! I hate these…..

7” I apologize for my broken English, if no greater flaw could be found.”

A quote from Mark Twain: “Damn the man that can only spell a word one way”.
Maybe your translation is confusing some things. I.E., when you say “draft hood” do you mean a fixed sheet metal ‘box’ on an atmospheric gas appliance, or do you mean a barometric control (with a swinging door) that maintains a constant steady draft to maximize safe, efficient operation under the wide variety of chimney conditions that do exist due to wind, temperature, barometric pressure, humidity, wind and building pressures?

I think this issue could potentially generate future discussion.

And at the very end;
“Those are the real problems of the industry.”

Again, just please lighten up. Controversy is no stranger to this discussion board. What have ya got?

rudy

And by the way, what exactly did they teach you at the 'Institute of Chemical Precision Technology'? And what exactly do you mean by "worked in the transportation industry for 20 years in NYC"? Hope you don't mind my asking - sounds like an interesting story!

Unknown

Alex, please stay away

from gas equipment. We have too many radicals who want to go against every safe and sane thing we have learned over the years.

I really wonder how people get loose to do things that set back proven technology.

We are all willing to learn something new. But, the one thing that gets to me is when people spout results and do not give us the actual procedures followed to accomplish what they say they have.

Give us step by step procedures and actual combustion and other readings to establish that your procedures do not circumvent safety issues.

I am sorry I did not get to see your article in Fuel Oil News, I subscribe to Oil Heating Magazine. Maybe some one can fax it to me.

We have had these kind of discussions before here on the Wall. I get concerned because homeowners are present here and may take what is said as acceptable practice. We are a group of professionals here who are willing to listen to anyone who wants to bring forth new theory or practice. Just make sure you can substantiate it with facts,figures, analysis and actual procedures followed.

I am not an oil man and I am sure the guys on oiltechtalk would love to have some discussion with you.

John@Reliable_2

Timmie and others here is the link ,

http://www.petroretail.net/fon/2003/0305/0305eff.asp
John@Reliable

Bob Bona_4

you've

got to be kidding me.

Is it April Fool's, have I have been sleeping the last 15 years? Or what?

Not only is this article inaccurate, but it is dangerous to impressionable and naive readers.

How irresponsible of Fuel oil news..

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DanHolohan

Gentlemen

have a technical discussion, but please treat each other with respect. We don't need the name-calling here. Thank you.

ed wallace

discussion

I challenge you to take this discussion to oiltechtalk.com and put it before your peers in the oil heat bussiness do you have what it takes to stand up for what you say?

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Mad Russian

response to Noel

I am very pleased trying to answer your questions. You are one of a few guys who didn’t demand that my article never be published, the editor fired, and the author hung or deported.
1. Water flow in the heating system.
2,850 sq. ft. two story house has 7 zones, 106 ft. of baseboard and about 450 ft. of ¾” piping.
If we assume that all the zones work simultaneously and water temperature differential between supply and return is 20*F, the required flow is:
106 x 560/60 x 8 x 20=6.18 GPM
560 btu/hour – heat transferred from one foot of baseboard
To simplify the calculation, we can forget about the common return pipe for the three zones upstairs and assume that all zones have equal length of piping-100 ft.
According to “Audel” Volume III HVAC library (appendix B, table B-5) friction loss for 100 ft. of ¾”steel pipe and 6 gal/min flow is 10.2 ft. Because in our case all the loops work in parallel, friction loss will be: 10.7:7=1.46 ft.
From the curve of “Taco” 0.07 circulator flow at 1.46 ft. head is 20 GPM. Because we calculated for 6 GPM, actual flow will be less – about 15 GPM, but still well above required 6 GPM. (150% excess)
During last pretty cold winter no room had lack of heat and the boiler – 3 section 0.85 GPH nozzle and 145 p.s.i. oil pressure – operated less than 50% of the time even in the coldest days. Nobody pays $2,000 tip for nothing.
2. There is no need to do any calculation to compare cost of operation of tankless coil and indirect water heater. It is obvious that indirect has some heat loss and tankless coil has none. Let us compare their performance from the cold start situation. For the boiler described above we calculate time from the cold start (65*F) to operational temperature (180*F), using basic output/ input formula:
AFUE= output/input= 0.85= (180 – 65) x 121/ 139,600 x 1.08 x T/60

T= (180 – 65) x 121 x 60 = 6.52 min.
0.85 x 139,600 x 1.08

1.08- Oil flow rate GPM
121- effective water volume of the boiler including cast iron core- pounds
It will probably take 3 times longer to get hot water from indirect water heater.
3. Draft diverter, draft regulator, atmospheric damper or whatever you call that ever-present piece of junk.
As I already said in my article, draft diverter can only reduce the draft. In most residential applications it is barely enough draft to begin with. When the wind blows into the chimney it also can only reduce the draft, and cannot increase it. When I try to enjoy my fireplace during the windy weather, the entire living room becomes filled with the smoke. So, in that situation, draft diverter is also useless.
In general, if you install a useless piece of equipment, you can expect problems in the future. If the draft on fire is less than –0.04 i.w.c. don’t install it. You will be glad.
4. Unfortunately, I don’t use Slant Fin boilers except in my house (price consideration.)
One more thing, if you don’t mind I will e-mail you for your information, my new article about indirects. I don’t want to post it on “The Wall” right now to let the guys digest what is already cooking. Also, I was unfairly humiliated, so I will leave those indirect patriots be in suspense for a while.


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Mad Russian

response to Noel

I am very pleased trying to answer your questions. You are one of a few guys who didn’t demand that my article never be published, the editor fired, and the author hung or deported.

1. Water flow in the heating system.
2,850 sq. ft. two story house has 7 zones, 106 ft. of baseboard and about 450 ft. of ¾” piping.

If we assume that all the zones work simultaneously and water temperature differential between supply and return is 20*F, the required flow is:
106 x 560/60 x 8 x 20=6.18 GPM
560 btu/hour – heat transferred from one foot of baseboard
To simplify the calculation, we can forget about the common return pipe for the three zones upstairs and assume that all zones have equal length of piping-100 ft.

According to “Audel” Volume III HVAC library (appendix B, table B-5) friction loss for 100 ft. of ¾”steel pipe and 6 gal/min flow is 10.2 ft. Because in our case all the loops work in parallel, friction loss will be: 10.7:7=1.46 ft.

From the curve of “Taco” 0.07 circulator flow at 1.46 ft. head is 20 GPM. Because we calculated for 6 GPM, actual flow will be less – about 15 GPM, but still well above required 6 GPM (150% excess.)

During last pretty cold winter no room had lack of heat and the boiler – 3 section 0.85 GPH nozzle and 145 p.s.i. oil pressure – operated less than 50% of the time even in the coldest days. Nobody pays $2,000 tip for nothing.

2. There is no need to do any calculation to compare cost of operation of tankless coil and indirect water heater. It is obvious that indirect has some heat loss and tankless coil has none. Let us compare their performance from the cold start situation. For the boiler described above we calculate time from the cold start (65*F) to operational temperature (180*F), using basic output/ input formula:
AFUE= output/input= 0.85= (180 – 65) x 121/ 139,600 x 1.08 x T/60

T= (180 – 65) x 121 x 60 = 6.52 min.
0.85 x 139,600 x 1.08

1.08- Oil flow rate GPM
121- effective water volume of the boiler including cast iron core- pounds

It will probably take 3 times longer to get hot water from indirect water heater.

3. Draft diverter, draft regulator, atmospheric damper or whatever you call that ever-present piece of junk.

As I already said in my article, draft diverter can only reduce the draft. In most residential applications it is barely enough draft to begin with. When the wind blows into the chimney it also can only reduce the draft, and cannot increase it. When I try to enjoy my fireplace during the windy weather, the entire living room becomes filled with the smoke. So, in that situation, draft diverter is also useless.

In general, if you install a useless piece of equipment, you can expect problems in the future. If the draft on fire is less than –0.04 i.w.c. don’t install it. You will be glad.

4. Unfortunately, I don’t use Slant Fin boilers except in my house (price consideration.)

One more thing, if you don’t mind I will e-mail you for your information, my new article about indirects. I don’t want to post it on “The Wall” right now to let the guys digest what is already cooking. Also, I was unfairly humiliated, so I will leave those indirect patriots be in suspense for a while.


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Mad Dog

Man o Manashevitz alex....this much controversy hasn't erupted

since ken secor and i went at it at Groom Lake. I Like your guts boy, but ya better be able to back it up...I'll be watching Mad Dog

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Floyd_3

Dan,

calling this clown's off the wall ideas a techincal discussion is sure using the term very loosely.

DanHolohan

It's tne name-calling

I'd like to stay away from, Floyd. Persuade, educate, treat others with respect. That's what the Wall is about. I learn something from everyone I meet - on way or the other. Thanks.

Mad Russian

To All:
Hello, Guys! If you want to make me a martyr, I would like to be one. But, please, no dirty words and acronyms .My twelve-year-old daughter reads my e-mail. “Mad Russian” and “moron” are all right. Where are the silent majority and people, who understand the subject, to defend me? Please, speak up! I, probably, should resort to my happy customers to defend me.
Also, keep in mind, that, whoever curses in a technical argument is usually wrong. Respect yourself guys, if you don’t respect others!
For the sake of future argument, please specify on what particular point you disagree, especially, if you think that even “Mad Russian” could be right in something.
To those most agitated: I still keep my wild joker intact.


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Mad Russian

To All:
Hello, Guys! If you want to make me a martyr, I would like to be one. But, please, no dirty words and acronyms .My twelve-year-old daughter reads my e-mail. “Mad Russian” and “moron” are all right. Where are the silent majority and people who understand the subject, to defend me? Please, speak up! I probably should resort to my happy customers to defend me.
Also, keep in mind that whoever curses in a technical argument is usually wrong. Respect yourself guys, if you don’t respect others!
For the sake of future argument, please specify on what particular point you disagree, especially, if you think that even “Mad Russian” could be right in something.
To those most agitated: I still keep my wild joker intact.


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Mad Russian

To All:
Hello, Guys! If you want to make me a martyr, I would like to be one. But, please, no dirty words and acronyms .My twelve-year-old daughter reads my e-mail. “Mad Russian” and “moron” are all right. Where are the silent majority and people who understand the subject, to defend me? Please, speak up! I probably should resort to my happy customers to defend me.

Also, keep in mind that whoever curses in a technical argument is usually wrong. Respect yourself guys, if you don’t respect others!

For the sake of future argument, please specify on what particular point you disagree, especially, if you think that even “Mad Russian” could be right in something.

To those most agitated: I still keep my wild joker intact.


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Joe Grosso

OK Alex

I do believe that the vast majority of your statements in FON are wrong and the point that steel dry base boilers are running at 25 or 35 percent eff I would like if Glenn staton from burnham would come on this point.I have been the fuel oil business for near twenty years and most of your ideas to me are just plain wrong.I have asked you to come over to oil tech talk to explain yourself in front of your peers but for some reason you will not.I guess it is ok to write a article in a trade publication for the oil indusrty but you will not go to a site that talks about oil heating and service 365 days a year.I do not believe one burner or boiler company would ok the way you service and install their equitment by the article that you have written and yes this is my opinion and I believe the opinion of most on this site and oil tech talks site.

Unknown

A few disputable facts

" Due to the nature of their business , oil companies have no interest in efficient operation of the boilers they install and service " - Working for one of the biggest oil companies on Long Island , I can tell you thats a crazy idea . How could any company turn a profit by sending a mechanic to the same boiler time and again in the same year to have it cleaned - usually covered in a contract - compared to a clean burning unit that might need to be cleaned every few years ? How long would a customer keep such an inept company that has to be at their house every few months ? Any company would rather see new equpment that needs servicing much less , and tries to sell new equipment , regardless of how much more efficient it is .

" Dry based boilers have only one surface for radiant heat exchange - on the top of the combustion chamber " . Not true - Todays dry based boilers , as well as many older style dry based , have transfer tubes , mostly vertical , with baffles , that transfer flue gas heat to the boiler water . Some boilers have 12 or more of these tubes . I wouild say theres more than one surface for heat transfer .

" In most cases , natural draft is barely enough , especially when a boiler is clogged , to maintain a .01 to .02 w.c. draft over fire " . In most cases where ? All over the country ? Do you have some facts to back this statement up ? I perform a draft test on every boiler I install , and the average draft is - .06 , with the regulator closed . What would you think would happen to the flame , and the boiler , if I left the draft like that , without a regulator ?

Having a boiler with a tankless coil running on demand might give you some unexpected problems also , other than the obvious - waiting 10 minutes for hot water . Ask any serviceman what the inside of an oil boiler looks like when its a cold start boiler . Some have said they need a chisel and hammer to bang off the primordial chunks lodged in the pins . And what about the stresses involved when you heat a boiler up , cool it down , heat it up ....etc , compared to keeping a boiler at least warm all year round ? Sure , you will burn some more oil - I think I burn maybe 40 more gallons a year - but I will bet my boiler will last longer and need to be cleaned less than the same cold start boiler .

I would also like to see more detail on how you arrive at those efficiency numbers , if you could explain it to someone who isnt too good at math , I would appreciate it .

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

I take issue

with most of the generalities that you have stated in your Fuel Oil News Article Alex. I have been a regular contributor to several heating publications for several years and have never seen such an insult to the intelligence of the trade.

Regarding the efficiency of steel boilers in general, you are dead wrong provided the boiler still has it's turbulators that it was equipped with. There is certainly much more than one surface conducting the heat to the water within. These boilers are equipped with fire tubes and turbulators to perform that heat exchange. If you are seeing flue temperatures in excess of 700 degrees, then some or most of the turbulators have to be missing. As a manufacturer, we have to subscribe to very stringent testing and certification processes with all of our heating products.

Your statement regarding Conflict of Interest is a sucker punch to all of the "good" oil companies out there that are indeed honest and care about proper cleaning and setup. We receive calls from these folks every day regarding how to achieve maximum combustion results while servicing equipment. There will always be a few that don't neccessarily do things right. That is why my job is important, to properly train the service people that don't quite understand the new equipment.

A barometric damper is a neccessary item on any oil fired appliances to properly balance draft due to varying chimney and external conditions. It is a must on our equipment and most other manufacturers equipment to deal with these varying conditions. Removing the barometric will raise the over fire draft in many conditions causing the flame to possibly leave the head.

Apparently you have not been shopping recently for circulators. They are in most cases, nearly the same price as zone valves and are now controlled with multiple zone relays that require much less wiring than the older single relays and cost a whole lot less. I will say that pumps will add a little to the cost of a job, but nearly as much as you state. Zone valves are a good product, but care has to be taken as to pump sizing to overcome the head resistance of these devices.

The port outlet of the boilers has to correspond to the required pipe size to transmit the water to the system. In the case of a 100,000 btuh boiler, this would be 1-1/4". I'm not sure where you did your research, but any manufacturer will be able to provide you with a pipe sizing chart.

Interupting the burner in a boiler equipped with a tankless heater will cause a multitude of problems. First of all, the boiler needs to be hot to be able to make the coil produce when water flow becomes dynamic. The result with a cold boiler will be a cold shower until the boiler rises through the recovery zone. Turning the ability of the boiler off at night will also cause the surfaces to contract and most certainly cause the coil gasket to weep. This may lead to premature failure of the boiler at the gasketed surfaces.

Finally, pressure reducing valves are a required item on boilers to properly introduce static fill to the system. Although low water cutoffs are not a required item in every state, they are a good way to prevent against the phenomenon that you desribe such as over-riding of the high limit. The makeup water should always be shut off after static fill is reached when using a low water cutoff.

As an individual that has been in the trade for 32 years, I am really surprised that this article went to print. It is so full of generalities with absolutely no proof or evidence whatsoever. You have managed to upset an incredible number of individuals related to the trade and equipment manufacter with your unfounded statements. Those that attend my seminars and that know me know that I do not get my dander up very often, but this time I had to vent. In teaching contractors, I always show evidence of what I am describing as proof of the theories that I teach. You have apparently decided to "reinvent the wheel" and to throw all of the proven technology of 50 years right out the window. Good luck in what you do and be careful out there!

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

Steve Eayrs

You are the minority......

not the majority.
I dissagree with about everything you said, and really can't understand how you can make the efficiency claims.
You might as well be saying the earth is flat.
I've run into a few people who get their thrills from starting a worthless arguement, and I believe you must be one of them.

Steve

Tony_8

safe ?

Fill devices fail closed occaisionnaly so don't put one in? That's safer and more convenient than a $25 FB-38?
What about the NYS Code REQUIRED backflow preventer?
I also don't want 25# of steam in my system because you installed a 5# low PRESSURE switch instead of a probe type LWCO. That's also NYS Code REQUIRED.
If you want consistent draft, install a concentric direct vent unit. The ones I use are on steel boilers though. Funny how they come up to temp faster than cast iron cousins do, especially under load.
I've cleaned a "couple" boilers that ran at condensing temps. I have a specially bought 16" drift punch and 18" long drill bits just for them.
Zoning 106 ft into 7 sections makes for small loads, run times must be short and probability of more than 2 or 3 on at a time are quite slim. Let's see what happens when the lifestyle changes and the doors are open between zones. Or, when the house gets sold and the new owners are cold below 30F outdoor.
The smoke detector thing is almost absurd. (rhymes with Goldberg) It would go off on nearly every start-up. Has anyone seen a burner yet that COMPLETELY and CLEANLY starts a burn cycle EVERY time? A hair dryer to transfer products of combustion through (or near) this smoke detector? When is that cycled on? Doesn't that use precious energy to care about wasting? How long will that last?
Definitely something MISsing here. MIScalculated, MISrepresented,MISunderstood ? Sooo many contradictions printed in that article make it hard to believe it was printed at all, unless to stir controversy. Whether it works or not, it is unsafe by any standards I've seen. And, at the very least, inconvenient for the homeowner and servicer. Not to mention regressive in technology.

Give it 5 years and see who gets to replace it. Hopefully no one gets hurt in the meantime.
Tony

[Deleted User]

there has to be a story here

bet its good

Tom M.

a few points

Alex,

The only point I agree with is about the use of zone valves over circulators on three zones or more. In initial cost on a loop system, this is the way to go. However, although I recommend this on a lot of installs and say that my own house has three Tacos, some people just don't like them and pay the extra for the pumps, multizone relay and flowchecks. Also, in systems with multiple temperatures and loops of radiant tubing, multiple pumps are necessary. I would not categorize these points as "confusion".

On the issue of the autofeeder, it appears in the boiler instructions (more on this later) and there is nothing to stop the flow when the child/ tenant/ friend who's good at plumbing/ etc. touches the valve handle. I am all for leaving the valve closed but the feeder and backflow are in place and there is a LWCO installed.

On the issue of protecting the boiler from poor draft and firing conditions, why not just use a Sootguard. It doesn't use any extra electricity I would guess that the smoke detector, plastic tubing and hair dryer motor are not listed for this use or up to the ambient temperatures that they are subjected to.

As far as your other procedures and concepts are concerned, I give you these excerpts from the Mass. Fire Code:

(5) Installation of Indoor Appliances.
(a) An oil burner shall be installed by a person having a certificate of competency in accordance with M.G.L. c. 148, § 10C or directly supervised by or in the presence of a person having a certificate of competency and in accordance with the instructions of the manufacturer of all equipment made part of the oil burner installation.

and:

(d) The installation shall be made in accordance with the instructions of the manufacturer.
Such instructions shall include directions and information as deemed by the manufacturer to be adequate for attaining proper and safe installation, maintenance, and use of the appliance. These instructions shall be left with the owner.

To make your install codeworthy in Mass., you would have to convince the boiler manufacturer of the safety and reliability of your setup and have them include it somehow in their instructions.

As far as your "conflict of interest" is concerned, any attempt to obtain efficiency beyond that intended by the manufacturer would be out of code in Mass.

Tom M.

DanHolohan

I don't think

that anyone is trying to make you a martyr, Alex. Let's try to raise this above that level, okay?

The Wall is a special place. Let's work to keep it that way.

No need to call people names. No need to be a martyr. Okay?

Steamhead

A couple more things to add

Yes, Alex, I also have seen boilers that were choked with soot after having been allegedly "cleaned". Around here, they always seem to be "serviced" by the same oil suppliers. When I find one, I show it to the owner and advise them to switch oil suppliers. After seeing this, they always do.

However, there are many good oil suppliers who do the right thing. These people know there's a right way to increase their sales- by adding more customers. The way to do that is to keep your existing customers happy, so they'll refer others who are looking for a reputable supplier.

As far as draft goes, obviously you have never dealt with an old chimney designed for a coal-burning boiler. These chimneys have much more draft than those being built now, since they had to pull air thru a bed of coal. With a modern oil- or gas-fired boiler hooked to one of these old chimneys, the excessive draft can pull all the heat out of the boiler! Some form of draft regulation is mandatory here, FACT (sorry F-D, couldn't resist)!

I don't know how they do things in Russia, but in America, boiler makers realize their gear could be used in a number of different situations. So they test their equipment and establish proper installation and operation parameters and procedures that must be followed for the unit to work well. One of the guiding principles in this business is "READ THE FREAKIN' MANUAL"! It is the result of much exhaustive testing, and if it is not followed and the boiler doesn't work properly, the manufacturer will NOT back you, FACT! Oh, did I mention you might hurt or kill someone too?

I have never been called to troubleshoot a system where ALL the instructions were followed, FACT!



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[Deleted User]

Wow...

This cowboy has some cajones :-) I ain't seen people so riled up (Sorry Jeff) since PAH introduced himself to the wall! Boy, FON must like controversy!!

I don't know squat about the fire side of an oil boiler, but I do know hydronics, and some of the things I read are WAY out in left field.

15 GPM through a 3/4" pipe? Thats 10 foot per second. Just a tad faster than the 5 FPS normally recognized as maximum recommended. Is he suggesting that we've been WRONG all these years? According to my B&G system syzer, at 15 GPM, 3/4" pipe generates 80 feet of head resistance per 100 foot length. With a 007 no less!!

Sheesh, I coulda gotten more jobs if I'd have speced 3/4" instead of all that expensive 1-1/4 stuff...:-)

Can you say hydrolysis? I can.

Theres a REASON they put 1-1/4 inch tappings on them puppies. It's because they can't afford an 1-1/2" tap ;-) (What the hey, as long as we're streching the truth just little, whatdahay)

Mr. Audel was a good publisher, but if I'm not mistaken, he depended on other people for their opines on things hydronic...

If I were FON, and I weren't looking for controversy, I'd have a group of industry peers look at the content of their articles PRIOR to publishing them. Kinda reminds me of the Plain Vanilla Radiant article that P&M did a while back. That raised a few hackles.

ME

Glenn Harrison

Alex, could you clarify some things for me?

First, I'm looking at your formula in your response for GPM, and I'm not getting it. You specifically show "106 x 560/60 x 8 x 20=6.18 GPM" When I do this formula on my calculator, I come up with 106 X 560 = 59,360 / 60 = 989.333 X 8 = 7914.6666 X 20 = 158293.33. So somewhere your math as you show it is way off.

Next, You show that you used 106 feet of baseboard, which at 560 BTU's output per foot = 59,360 btu's output. Is this what the actual heat load of the house is? If so, that's one heck of a well insulated 2,850 Sq ft house. If not, what am I missing?

Next, refering to my "Zoning Made Easy" book by Bell & Gossett, it show that when you want to know the flow rate based on a 20º temp drop, you divide the net BTU load by 10,000. This comes from taking the weight of a gallon of water (8.33) times the number of minutes in an hour (60) times the temp diff (20º in your case) which equals 9,996, which is called 10,000 for conversation sake. So, if I take your 59,360 BTU's of output , divided by 10,000, you get 5.9 gpm. Now, going by B&G's Maximum flow rate and heat carrying capacity chart, your 3/4" pipe can move a maximum of 4 GPM or 40,000 BTU's before you have velocity noise problems. So, you should at least have a 1" line going from the boiler to your indivdual lines, and then 3/4" would be O.K. to the individual zones. Now, since you have a 1 1/4" boiler taps, I assume the boiler BTU rating is somewhere between 80,000 and 140,000 BTU's, since 1" will move 8 GPM or 80,000 BTU's and 1 1/4" will move 14 GPM or 140,000 BTU's. So why do you have a boiler larger then your baseboard output? Or am I completly missing something here. Please keep in mind that what I just wrote is just what I was taught, so please clarify where my math and your's don't match.

Third, you say that a PRV is totally unneccesary. While I would agree that leaving the water turned on is wrong, I would think that you should still have the PRV installed to prevent overfilling the boiler in the event that someone turns on the water feed or that the inlet shut off valve starts to leak. Also you said that you "may" install a low water cutoff. I think it's safe to say that if you are going to turn of the water feed to the boiler, youe HAVE to have a low water cutoff, no if's, and's, or but's! I think it would have been in your best interest to have stated this in the same section with the statement about PRV's. I knd of like your pressure switch idea's, but I would think that a probe type LWCO would be the best failsafe.

Last, I'm confused about your timer setup for "on-demand hot water" Are you saying that when the homeowner wants hot water, they have to go down to the boiler, flip a switch, wait 5 minutes for the boiler to heat up, an then they have 10 minutes of hot water before the timer locks out the burner? This does not make any sense, since most people will take longer then a 10 minute shower, and a washing machine or dishwasher will use hot water over a period of time longer then 10 minutes. I don't see how you can call it "on-demand" when you have to manually flip a switch and wait 5 minutes. So please explain to me where my thinking is wrong.

One last thing, I was always taught that a properly sized and terminated chimney will actually create MORE draft on a windy day, rather then less. This being the case, that "piece of junk" called a barometric damper would be very necessary to maintain the proper draft in the boiler. I'm thinking you must be seeing some improperly setup chimneys to have made the statement you made about minimum draft being achieved on your systems.

Thanks, Glenn

Mark Hunt

I been waitin'


to hear from you!

Can you imagine what this "discussion" would have been like a few years ago?

HOOOOOOOOBOY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark "zone valves for everyone" H

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ed wallace

discussion

the oil heat guys are still waiting for you over at oiltechtalk.com

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Steamhead

He told them

to read his posts here on the Wall. Guess this is it..........

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Dave Yates (PAH)

cajones

PAH at least had the cajones to defend his controversial position and never, ever - not even once - promoted anything more dangerous than desert dry air!

I'll be looking for FON at NOASHM.

ed wallace

discusion

yes i know he posted on oiltechtalk.com but if he really can stand up for his ideas he would take it to his peers you would expect him to defend his beliefs before those who work on oil how would you like to hear that a doctor presenting a paper went before a group ofother than his peers? guess he cant take the heat

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John R. Hall

At NAOHSM

I'm at the NAOHSM meeting this week in Hershey along with a few other notables (initials DH). I can stop by the Fuel Oil News booth and ask some questions. Anybody got suggestions?

Mad Russian

Reply to Mr. Glenn Stanton.

I apologize for a not quick enough response, because I am still slow at typing but, making a good headway. And my daughter does not want to help me anymore.

Reply to Mr. Glenn Stanton. Even with 32 years experience it is never late to learn something .
1.You contradicted yourself by saying, that make up line should be shut all the time during normal operation .Then what is the pressure regulator for ? Or, maybe, you think it looks pretty ?

2.You are so certain that 100MBTU boiler should have supply and return ports 1 ¼ “. And I can tell you why.
Because it was that way ( even larger ) with all the boiler manufacturers for so many years. And it is, of course, very impressive.
But let us look at the situation from different point of view.

The heating system with that kind of boiler needs 10GPM flow at 20* F differential. From the curve of “Taco “ 007 circulator at that flow we will have maximum system friction loss at about 8 ft. We also should have about 170 ft. of ¾” baseboards. I don’t think, that you insist to change ¾” baseboards to 1¼ “ to match the boiler ports , do you?
By the logic and common sense all or most of the piping should be done with ¾ “ pipes. Considering that all the piping and baseboards will be divided into few zones, we will probably stay within 8 ft friction loss limit. Otherwise we need high velocity circulator .
Anyway, if we use chart of “Audel” HVAC library volume 3 appendix B table B-5 we can find, that effective length of our system should be 30 ft. The length of 1 ¼” both ports is probably less than 1ft, which gives, us 3% reduced friction loss. .It is insignificant .

3. If you have a chance to test your steel boilers by measuring input and output, you will be surprised by the results .
It is very hard to persuade that black is black and white is white a person , who wants to believe otherwise .But nobody can deny formula AFUE = output /input .With that in mind I visited the basement ,where I did my efficiency test six months ago .Two identical steel boilers Model FD95A by Ford Products Corp. are still puffing and coughing in there, only the hoods have more signs of being burned through, and I got permission from the landlady to retest a boiler.
The question is: how many witnesses, what qualification and to whom sworn in, should be present?
Maybe somebody will volunteer? We can also do conclusive test of a draft diverter, see working smoke detector and so on.
I am only asking for a chance to exonerate myself and the editor!
4. I already apologized to all honest oil companies for the “Conflict of Interest” remarks, but in our area the situation
is different. Existence of the steel boilers is another proof of that.
Somebody is asking about my autobiography. I assure you that I have never been a member of the Communist Party. Just opposite.
If it changes anything, I am ready to pass any related engineering test or exam and I challenge an engineer, who
took part in our discussion to do the same.


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DanHolohan

In their installation instructions,

B&G insists that the PRV be shut once installed and used to fill the system.