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munchkin vs. viessmsnn
rich_6
Member Posts: 10
hi guy's- have read a lot about the differnt boilers and would like to replace my old boiler. what i have is a old cast iron hot water system with stand up radiators.the boiler has a net btu rating of around 150,000 btu's.(a little oversized) the main pump is on constent pumping .have tried outdoor resets, ect. will the boiler have to be cast iron ie. w-m or burnham? can a person get one of the new smaller boiler like the munchkin or viessmann to work with this old antique system without plugging up. also need some piping ideas for the best way to install the new boiler. old piping is solid as a rock!!! have nat. gas here in this area-- would like to hear some input on the subject. thanks.
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Comments
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viessmann vs. munchkin
hi guy's- have read a lot about the differnt boilers and would like to replace my old boiler. what i have is a old cast iron hot water system with stand up radiators.the boiler has a net btu rating of around 150,000 btu's.(a little oversized) the main pump is on constent pumping .have tried outdoor resets, ect. will the boiler have to be cast iron ie. w-m or burnham? can a person get one of the new smaller boiler like the munchkin or viessmann to work with this old antique system without plugging up. also need some piping ideas for the best way to install the new boiler. old piping is solid as a rock!!! we have nat. gas here in this area-- would like to hear some input on the subject. thanks.0 -
My Munchkin
is working very well with old cast iron piping and rads.
Potential disadvantages of using a low-volume boiler are averted when the rest of the system contains so much H2O.
Modulation prevents oversize condition.
I'm sure the Viessmanns are great, but they do cost twice as much.
That said, if your existing boiler is functioning well, it is likely that the system could be reworked to solve any operational problems you are up against for much less money.
Consider your cost/benefit analysis carefully before spending thousands on a replacement.0 -
VvM
Viessmann vs Munchkin is not really an apt comparison. Sorta like Yugo vs. Mercedes. CI Rads work best with a cast iron boiler....and Viessmann makes the best. I'd also recommend a 4 way mixing valve to prevent thermal shock and precise temperature control. All boilers come with factory recommended piping installations. Qualified technicians will know what to do...if you're system is an original gravity, or gravity conversion, make sure the new "near boiler" piping is designed for the load and piped correctly. Dan has some great articles in "Heating Q&A" that may describe your system.
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thank's for info
thank's to you for the info on this subject. the old boiler is still working like a pro. this thing was installed two years after i was born (1955)and is doing a good job. it is working too much( high heat bills$$$) will look up the rep for viessmann in this area and see what he has to say and maybe next year will try one out. thanks Rich.0 -
Viessman vs. Munchkin
Since we are being rather biased I think the Mercedes Vs. Yugo comparison is rather harsh. Veissman is a very well marketed and promoted.(This Old House and the Like) This doesn't necessarily make it a Mercedes or the best by any of my standards. High mass boilers will never be as efficient as a low mass boiler in a properly designed and engineered low mass system. Even Viessman is going away from mass and cast-iron to low mass and stainless steel. I know the published effiencies look impressive but they don't really add up when you look at system efficency. The Munchkin is a high quality product that may have a few rough edges. The President of Heat Transfer Products has vision for the future and is committed to providing customers with quality, value, efficiency and reliability. Rich, if your looking at boilers take a closer look at the product, the company and people who build the Munchkin. Look to the future and look at a system that will out perform Viessman. Look a the New Vision System that is being offered by Heat Transfer Products that will truly coordinate the all function of the boiler operation with the system. Take the money you save on the boiler and the money you save on your fuel bill and take a nice long vacation and enjoy. Life is short share the savings with those you love.0 -
the vision
thing is big. Viessmann above and beyond any company that I have ever been associated with has it. They are obsessed with quality engineering and stand behind the products that they sell. They don't have a control to do the job they have a clear cut strategy for true system eff. and integration. Check out both boilers, both boiler companies and most importantly check out the contractors who sell the products. I think you will come away knowing that Viessmann is the manuf. of choice.
Michael Bleier
Able Distributors
"www.abledistributors.com
"The Supplier Who Works With You"0 -
Viessmann Vitodens on high mass system
I was yakking with the Viessmann rep just a couple days ago. The subject of the conversation was a Vitodens installation that was done in a large old house with standing iron rads throughout. The contractor that did the job has been installing boilers since they were coal fired. (Well maybe that's a little bit of a stretch) but he has been at it for a long time. A couple of interesting things were mentioned. #1 was that so far this winter (which has been exceedingly cold here) the HO's fuel bills are running a little over 35% LESS than last year, which was a mild winter tempwise. #2. The installer, being the curious type that he is, put a chart recorder on the boilers, there are 2, in order to monitor the water temp. The MAXIMUM supply temp that the system has seen so far is 137*. 90% of the winter has been below 125*. What does this mean for the HO? Extremely high efficiency. Running at those water temps the Vitodens will be at least 94% eff. and higher.
There were a lot of other things that tweaked me about this job but they are mainly of a technical nature and I won't bore you with the details.
As far as the comparison between a Vitodens and a Munchkin........ I think Mercedes vs a Chevy would be more like it. (Paul bleeds silver and orange so forgive him) The two are of similar heat exchanger design but the execution of that design is totaly different. The burner on the Viessmann is worth the price of admission by itself. Then there are all the other things that the control will do that the Munchkin won't. But in all fairness they are working on it. I'm not dissing the Munchkin. I've installed a few myself. You asked for a comparison and this is just my humble opinion. Hope this helps.
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HOW COULD THIS BE....
THAT the vitodens command three times the cost?? do they approach the laws of physics differently than we can with american steel ?? I am not an engineer (though sometimes I play one on TV),how many years of saving absolutly nothing will it take to make up the difference ?/ remember the mercedes is only expensive in the united states ,everywhere else it is the second car!! Boy talk about marketing, Whew!! And just how long does it take to get repair parts in from OverSeas, Hmmmmm!!
Murph' (SOS)]
Proud To Support America !!0 -
Steve, was any
other part of the system changed? If not, wouldn't they have been able to heat the house with the same water temp with the old boiler?
The whole 35% savings was in the firing of the boiler? Instead of solar the Gov't. should subsidize these boilers.0 -
3 times the cost????
according to last I checked about 30% more in cost is more like it. (whats Munchkin @ aprox.$3000, is aprox. $4500 in Vitodens, and then you need to add to the Munchkin to have controls that will do what the Vitodens can, and the metal is different. Different grades of Stainless, and no Aluminum on the Vitodens heat exchanger.
I too will support good O' USA when possible, but why won't they design and build better stuff?
If we paid what Europe did for fuel, I believe we would lead instead of follow.
The new W-M Ultra is another example of trying to follow, but only after they see their market going to the likes of Veissmann.
Steve0 -
EVEN IF YOUR NUMBERS.....
WERE correct the math is still wrong. Why would you want to list cost of these items??0 -
nothing vs what
you're claiming that a Vitodens will save nothing vs what?
Munchkin? Crown/Burnham/etc cast iron boiler?
Mark0 -
Actually...
...if you take $3000 as 100% of the cost, then the Viessmann is 50% more money to buy.
150% is 150 / 100 = 1.5
The Viessmann, at 150% of the Munchkin is:
$3000 X 1.5 = $4500.
The other way to look at it is that the Munchkin is 2/3 of the cost of the Viessmann.
($3000 / $4500) X 100 = 66.7%
How you calculate it depends upon what you're looking to figure out. In that respect, it's a lot like combustion eff vs boiler eff.0 -
But...
...in additon to the percentage savings (and you need to be careful how you figure them out) there's the hard, year over year dollar savings. If this is a big, old house and the heating costs were, say, $4000 a year, and you can drop that to $3000. His fuel costs are now 75% of what they were. You've saved $1000 in that year. The more expensive replacement boiler, at $1500 more than the other unit will pay back in a year and a half. Good one. Go for it. (But I also wonder what savings the less expensive Munchkin would have achieved over the old boiler?)
If, however, this is a newer and smaller house, things can change. Suppose this guy spends $1000 a year on fuel. If you get the same savings - that is drop his fuel cost to 75% to last years, that's $250. If the more expensive boiler is still the same cost (it'll be lower with the smaller house, but the idea is the same) then guy #2 will take 6 years to get his money back. I don't see that as a good investment.
And I submit that the 94% eff is combustion eff, and NOT boiler eff. If I'm this customer, I'm not buying a stand alone burner, I'm buying a burner, as part of a package, already installed on a boiler. I want to know the ratio of useable heat out of this boiler, is to heat in, that I'm paying the gas or oil company for. The only way to make an accurate comparison between the Munchkin and the Viessmann is do a BOILER eff on each.0 -
opps!..percentages off
Your right. I wrote before I thought.
And Murph, I'm not a rep for either, just another contractor, and the prices are just a rough comparison. Just didn't want everyone to think they were 3X more.
Steve0 -
Bravo Paul P
as passionate as ever re quality products! I was thinking Ferrarri vs Carmen Ghia! I'll stick with the Viessmann - and North American manufacturers/designers will be dragged along - kicking and screaming - but never quite catching up.0 -
Costing Comparisons...et al
No offense Murph, but a Mercedes is more expensive to buy in Germany than the US. In fact, a Viessmann boiler cost more in Germany than in the US or Canada. What does it matter? In every industry, there are machines that cost more and usually do more. The argument should be that a boiler should be designed in a system that avoids short cycling and maximum effiency. Cycling is the big killer of efficiency. The design needs to take into account the type of heating emmitters, chimney setup and of course, the burner or combustion setup. I'm presuming that outdoor reset controls, P/S or mixing valves are being utilized. High mass or low mass, each has its best or optimum usage in a particular design.
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PROBALY EVERYTHING
> No offense Murph, but a Mercedes is more
> expensive to buy in Germany than the US. In fact,
> a Viessmann boiler cost more in Germany than in
> the US or Canada. What does it matter? In every
> industry, there are machines that cost more and
> usually do more. The argument should be that a
> boiler should be designed in a system that avoids
> short cycling and maximum effiency. Cycling is
> the big killer of efficiency. The design needs
> to take into account the type of heating
> emmitters, chimney setup and of course, the
> burner or combustion setup. I'm presuming that
> outdoor reset controls, P/S or mixing valves are
> being utilized. High mass or low mass, each has
> its best or optimum usage in a particular design.
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 104&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,
> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A
> Contractor"_/A_
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The difference is in
The way the boiler and burner operate. The old boiler wouldn't live long at water temps below 140*. It would be raining inside the combustion area due to condensation.
On the Vitodens the boiler control monitors water temp, outdoor air temp and indoor air temp then adjusts the firing rate of the modulating burner to match the load. It never produces water of greater temp than needed to heat the home. A huge difference from a typical boiler control which runs up to the limit (180*) cycles off and then repeats the process. By matching the temp needed to the load, the Vitodens is kept at maximum efficiency. 94% and up for that kind of water temp.
The point is..........It's not just modulating burners or condensing type heat exchangers or controls or pumps. All of those things are part of the package but they have to work together. When the whole system is designed right and everything works in harmony you wind up with the total being greater than the sum of the parts. To me, that is the vast difference between Viessmann and just about everyone else. System efficiency is the result of the entire package working together to wring every last cent worth of heat from every fuel dollar.
The near boiler piping was changed but that's about it. The rads already had TRV's on them as I understand. Interestingly, the old boiler was rated at 82% AFUE. The difference in energy cost is the magic part of SYSTEM efficiency vs combustion efficiency alone.0 -
PROBALY EVERYTHING
COST more in germany !! But to take a perfectly good American Product and slam it ,comn'. A YUGO ,sheesh. what else does viessman make that they do not market here?? Only the high end stuff. Perhaps with your connections selling to a high dollar crowd, thats fine !! Better unit (built) perhaps, but to slam all the other products cause they are less expensive, how many do you have installed, and what types of problems did you yourself experiance?? With the HTP product!! I will agree with you that combustion efficiency and boiler efficiency are different and these units need to be set-up properly.
besides the yugo was made from equipment taken from the vohlks-wagon plant, after they had to start to pay production taxes in the US.They left. Left a lot of folks high and dry in this area, But of course your projects do not reflect middle-class people.
Look around a little, Not everyone is driving a european import. Gotta run.
Murph'0 -
HEY STEVE!
EXACTLY the system I'm looking for. Could you possibly get me in touch with the technician and/or homeowner?
REALLY appreciate this.
Please feel free to "bore" me with all the details you care to share!
Thanks,
Mike0 -
I'll get his number
and e-mail it to you Mike. The name of his company is Alger Plumbing and the guys name is Len. He's in the GrandRapids Mi. area.0 -
Those numbers
seem to jive VERY well with my limited experience. The supply temperatures are nearly dead on my "ideal" reset temp for my system.
When I was trying to determine the "true" efficiency of my system (oversized atmospheric standing-pilot cast iron boiler, reset, TRVs, constant circulation) I seemed to find an inefficiency that varied from about 25%-45% that COULD NOT be accounted for in transmission loss and flue loss (i.e. gas BTUs in minus heat BTUs out of the boiler proper). That "unaccounted" loss varied inversely with outside temperature and directly with cycle frequency. The warmer outside, the longer the time between cycles and the greater the loss.
I attributed this to "cycle" loss and reasoned that with a boiler of variable flame and highly efficient heat transfer fuel consumption could likely be reduced by nearly half--on TOP of the savings already realized with the TRVs, insulation, weatherization, etc. This was years ago and such a boiler did not exist (except in Viessmann's engineering department) I suspect.
While that 50% reduction seemed truly fantastic at the time, it just may be close to reality. I did write about this way back, but don't recall mentioning my suspicions about fuel reduction for fear of sounding absolutely kooky and being acused of wishful thinking.
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Bless you kind sir. (nm)
...0 -
Perhaps the question
to be asked is: have you ever installed a Viessmann system? BTW, most of our clients are "middle-class". Not all are tech millionaires.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say... Are you opposed to paying more for a product if it does more? Or are you opposed to paying more for an imported product?
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CHEAP SHOT.....
GREEN with envy. I guess all we see are the high end jobs, no sense pushing against your fortunate customers that can afford the imported stuff!! You gotta answer my question first, How many of these (HTP) do you have problems with?? what I would be against is opposed to that if it's not a german import, It ain't worth a ****. Not good enough!! I need to hear more. Why won't you support an US. product?? Why do you continue to bash it??
Murph'
Steppin on Silver??0 -
Uh Oh
First Murph, I'm not bashing anything...you're taking this far too personal. Are you claiming the HTP is made in America? And being made in America, is therefore better? Most of the products I use are European in origin. That includes radiator angle valves, TRV's, mixing valves and of course,boilers and controls. The radiant tubing is made in America, but owned by a Finnish parent company. 98% of all my boiler sales are German. You'll be happy to note that the other 2% is steam, and for that I use Burnham. I don't view this as a "commodity" discussion. Copper tubing is a commodity, boilers aren't. There's Good, Better, Best and Not So Good. Every contractor has the right to make the choice for what serves him (and hopefully his customers)in all business matters.
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I'm with Murph, Munchkin and the Good Ol' USA Baby
The "V" is certainly a fine machine, but that "apples to oranges" analogy was quite heavy-handed. Munchkin is much more cutting edge...look at the size of it!!!!!!! "V" has been at it longer and gets tons!!!! of press....and talk about support...that Jeff Cooke is a helluva guy and will back you to the wall....besides The Great Mark Hunt loves em too!!! And, as to the comment about us making better stuff...I agree, but The French and German govt's heavily subsidize the R & D of these companies...WHILE The good ol' USA protects and defends Europe militarily. I like to see what would happen if we pulled out and we should....With the way The Frogs and the Krauts been treating us lately...why give them a dime????????GOD BLESS AMERICA AND MUNCHKIN ...and Victory to our troops Mad Dog
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I agree w/ GOD BLESS USA...
We definitely need it.
A question. Where are the munchkin made?, and who is the parent company/ controling stocks, etc.?
ON a related subject.........
Another question. Am I the only one who is tired of replacing 007 pump cartridges? And why do they cost almost as much as a new pump? I would say an easy 10 replacements on these for every one 15-42.
Or how about repair parts on the old AFG Beckett, compared to the Reillo F3? I would have to say maybe 20 beckett repair to 1 Reillo. I have installed a lot of both, and I do realize Beckett has finally started putting better motors on burners, etc.., but hardly ever have Reillo parts go bad on us.
My conclusion is good ol USA is into selling repair parts big time, and makes more on them than the new product. They have no incentive to made design changes, since repair parts have to be a major part of their income.
On the other hand, there are some, (sorry most are not made in USA), who seem to build a better product, and put more pride in how it operates and how long it will last. And of course they cost more to produce too. (like the Veiss vs. Munchkin thing)
With all this said, I want to state I realize this is not always a true, across the board statement.
But with these particlular products, am I alone on this or do others feel the same way?
AND may God Bless and protect our troups.
Steve
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I have to give my two cents
Honestly guys I have to assume Maddog or Murph have not seen the Vitoden. Have you guys actually seen one and had a honest discussion with a rep ?
NO ONE here is questioning anyones patriotism. We are doing what we allways do on this site .. talking heating equipment.
I have put in a few Munchkins and I think its a great piece of equipment. Have you had some one hand the heat exchanger around the room ? Now hold the Vitoden heat exchanger ... carefull, it takes two hands. Its the guage of the stainless steel. Its just built stronger.
Have you guys done a C.O. test on the munchkin, where do you put your probe ? The Vitoden has a port built into its flue piping right there for you. Well thought out. Its allready got the outdoor reset and pump logic. You don't have to upgrade.
I love the Munchkin and am proud that an American company finally stepped up with a decent product. But we all know were the technology and the heat exchanger came from right ? This is not a completly USA built unit.
When I saw the Vitoden at a seminar my first thought was well the Munchkin is the affordable version of this. Maybe not a Yugo, but more a Ford.
I will continue to show the munchkin to my customers, but I might just also tell them the Vitoden is also available. If they want to purchase a product that is built to the highest standards then they may want to spend alittle more. Its their money to spend how they wish.
I was very hesitant to post this as I think very highly of both of you ( along with Paul ). But we are talking product here. By the way this computer I am typing on is not built completly in this country. We are a global economy whether we like it not.
Remember it is because we are in the greatest country on earth that we can say these things and discuss it openly.
God bless our fighting men.
Scott
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My turn!
I have noticed that many of the people in this discussion have those neat little "Find out more about this contractor" links at the bottom of their posts. Great idea Dan!!
I send every customer I speak to to this site to check out if what I have told them is true. So when I see derogatory statements made about a product that I HIGHLY recommend it really BURNS ME UP!
Some of the posts regarding German products, specifically Viessman, bring a statement to mind. Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Bolter.
I paid my money just like the rest of you for the "Find a contractor" link so how about backing off on the "YUGO" crap?!?!
To insinuate that I am offering my customers a "lesser system" because I did not use the SS boiler is a lot of egotistical bunk.
I held back as long as I could but this has been going on now for too long.
And yes Scott, I HAVE SEEN the Vitodens but I have not sold one nor have I offered one to a customer.
It's tough enough going up against the low ball in and out guys without having to be stepped on by people that SHOULD know better.
How about we all agree that if we can't say something good about a product, we say nothing at all?
Any takers?
Mark H
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Why use either???
If you are using cast iron rads, you probably will not get the boiler to condense for a good part of the winter in the first place. Better of using a good cast iron boiler like the Veissmann or Buderus. After the cost of the Vitodens, and the other parts you need to install it (low loss header,vent kit) you will save at least 2k.
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Egotistical?
Mark,
I have checked my ego at the door a long, long time ago. To many guys here have forgotten more than I know. Therefor ego has nothing to do with the way I do things.
I have read the entire thread and I haven't witnessed a slam of any kind, from the Viessmann fans. I'm not sure how to digest the Mercedes/Yugo thing since a car analogy has never seemed to apply to what it is we do. We sell systems that should last a lifetime, not till the end of the lease. There are big differences between these two products and if you aren't intimate in the Viessmann ways, the differences aren't going to jump out at you. While there are some subsidies in Europe, the thing that drives the heating over there is emissions. All of the cool technology rides on the coattails of striving to make non-polluting equipment. Someone mentioned "The burner alone is worth the price of admission." Ditto on that.
Instead of being "highly burned up" by the other opinions contradictory to yours, find out about the equipment and you may end up offering it as your "high end" (whatever that means) option.
Respectfully,
hb
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Munchkins with standing CI, wonderful!
I have seen an installation with standing CI rads where the installer removed a very old oil boiler converted to NG in the 60's and replaced it with a munchkin of less than half the input.
Report from the homeowner was that his fuel bill dropped by at least 50% and the heat was more even and comfortable than he had ever thought possible.
This was prior to the Vision system, which should with the outdoor reset save even more energy and more importantly, improve comfort levels significantly.
Munchkin condenses at 180F, has "sealed" combustion with an AFUE of 92% at 180F. I have personally checked some of them on radiant jobs running at 98% combustion efficiency.
Mabye the comparison is more like corvette vs porche?0 -
I have
looked at Viessman and I am convinced that they are a very good product. ZERO representation in my area. The only company that carries them is about two hours south of me.
That being said, I have no problem with others voicing professional preferences but wacky comparisons do nothing but cause confusion.
My customers trust me and my abilities. I send them here to ask questions about what to look for in a contractor. If one of them had read Mr.Pollets post they would have thought that I sold them a piece of junk and THAT I will not stand for. Almost calling me a liar and a cheat.
There are a WHOLE bunch of folks that DO NOT use Viessman, are they short selling their customers?
I work for my customer, not ANY manufacturer. I research every piece of equipment before I will ever offer it. I've got quite a few Munchkins out there and they are performing EXACTLY the way I said they would. Not just because of the manufacturer, their job ends at the factory loading dock. After that it is up to the installer. There is where a product will stand or fall no matter how well designed on a planning table. If a customer comes to me and wants a Viessman, I will give them what they want and I will do it correctly. To date I have had no requests for the product. As I said, there is NO representation here.
If you take a look at our web site, you will see that we list the mighty "V" as a product that we offer. In all fairness I will admit that I do not bring it up in my presentations. I will start doing that tomorrow.
My feeling on all of this is that those who have decided that there is NO other boiler but Viessman would never even consider another product. Their opinions are already made and set in good German cast iron and I don't care.
I have done a service for every one of my customers. I have delivered on each and every one of my promises. You guys want to call them all up and tell them I screwed them? Fortunately, I doubt that those opinions would carry much weight as I fulfilled my promise.
Yes, the Yugo/Mercedes comment was egotistical and presumptuious. I offer Munchkin boilers to EVERY customer with a HW system. Not just the "ones that can afford it" and I have seen that comment several times on this site.
I am going to ask all of the Viessman guys point blank, are ALL other boilers junk? Are the contractors that do not offer Viessman "low end"?
I would really like to know. Have I been ripping my customers off all this time?
Let me know.
Mark H
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I have
looked at Viessman and I am convinced that they are a very good product. ZERO representation in my area. The only company that carries them is about two hours south of me.
That being said, I have no problem with others voicing professional preferences but wacky comparisons do nothing but cause confusion.
My customers trust me and my abilities and MY JUDGEMENT. I send them here to ask questions about what to look for in a contractor. If one of them had read Mr.Pollets post they would have thought that I sold them a piece of junk and THAT I will not stand for. Almost calling me a liar and a cheat.
There are a WHOLE bunch of folks that DO NOT use Viessman, are they short selling their customers?
I work for my customer, not ANY manufacturer. I research every piece of equipment before I will ever offer it. I've got quite a few Munchkins out there and they are performing EXACTLY the way I said they would. Not just because of the manufacturer, their job ends at the factory loading dock. After that it is up to the installer. That is where a product will stand or fall no matter how well designed on a planning table. If a customer comes to me and wants a Viessman, I will give them what they want and I will do it correctly. To date I have had no requests for the product. As I said, there is NO representation here.
If you take a look at our web site, you will see that we list the mighty "V" as a product that we offer. In all fairness I will admit that I do not bring it up in my presentations. I will start doing that tomorrow.
My feeling on all of this is that those who have decided that there is NO other boiler but Viessman would never even consider another product. Their opinions are already made and set in good German cast iron and I don't care.
I have done a service for every one of my customers. I have delivered on each and every one of my promises. You guys want to call them all up and tell them I screwed them? Fortunately, I doubt that those opinions would carry much weight as I fulfilled my promise.
Yes, the Yugo/Mercedes comment was egotistical and presumptuous. I offer Munchkin boilers to EVERY customer with a HW system. Not just the "ones that can afford it" and I have seen that comment several times on this site.
I am going to ask all of the Viessman guys point blank, are ALL other boilers junk? Are the contractors that do not offer Viessman "low end"?
I would really like to know. Have I been ripping my customers off all this time?
Let me know.
Mark H
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How do you get a Munchkin, or any other boiler for that matter, to condense at 180 F when the theoretical highest condensing temp is 135 F?0 -
Well
It depends on where the condensing is happening.
No defying the laws of physics. When the water temps get that high, the condensate is formed in the exhaust which is still very low in temp.
Lots of other variables here too, like the saturation of the combustion air.
You must keep in mind that 180* water is for design day not the majority of the heating season, so water temps will be lower most of the season.(On conventionally designed systems)
Mark H
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SHORT MEMORIES........
IN your second sentence "Viessmann vs Munchkin is not really an apt comparison. Sorta like Yugo vs. Mercedes." Is that really what you believe?/ you push this european stuff cause it's vogue, or do you really feel that there is nothing else out there that could service people?? I mean 98% of your sales are imported units at a higher installation cost for obvious reasons, but you seem to be willing not to dirty your hands with anything less?? I do not mean to be nasty at all, but keep in mind that all the folks here do not have the same cliental as you. These assertions are that everything else is trash. Where does that leave all people that have purchased or are considering purchasing domestic equipment?? Do we have to leave them cold for fear they will get an inferior product?/ keep in mind your projects and knowledge carry a lot of weight here in the WWW. Now back to my original post that got you interested (cause we ain't talkin cars) how do you justify equipment at such a higher cost?/ show me the numbers that your thermal efficiencies are gonna save thousands in operating cost compared to initial installation cost?? just a couple more tricks are not gonna make that much difference in overall performance!!
Paul ,you have a niche market that demands what you sell, but please keep in mind that not all can/will be able to sell the same thing in all markets. Seems to me there are alot of systems out there that are not imported ,I would guess these would be less than satifactory for use.To sell the OverSeas stuff I would need it proven to me this would be the best, most cost effective system out there, still do not see how it could be. If it were the case, then I have done nothing for my customers ,ever. Is this true??
Murph'0 -
holy smokes?!?!?
hay guy's *** I didn't mean to start the war quite so soon. as a plumber here in the north midwest, I have never even seen a viessmann boiler but was looking for a boiler that they don't sell around here (not that they sell junk here)for my big old house and thought i would get one for my old system and see how they work. i dont like to install a product without trying it myself.i have seen the munchkin and have spec. on both. looks to me that the german boiler is larger and and would fit my system a little bit better. just wanted a little input on how the two boilers compared when the would be installed with a huge old castiron system like mine. by the way the boiler that has been sitting in the basement for so long is a "ack-o-matic* from new jersey. a cold winter (20- zero) the system temp sit's around 140 d. sure was nice to hear from so many people. thank's agn. 73's Rich0
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