advice needed

Jamie Hall

Just goes to show there are homeowners and homeowners. Sounds like you drew a real lemon on this one. If push comes to shove, like real hard, and you've got really good photos and the Wirsbro stuff... I might be able to give you a hand with the stamp. Have to have a chat... I'm a Connecticut PE and like our legal friend, I owe a lot to listening to you guys -- always learn something.

Bob Bona_4

got an issue.

Looking for some sage advice. Did a radiant slab job last fall (3 separate areas). Job was poorly run by a homeowner/"GC". He hired a builder to stand in as a GC "prop". I was hired directly by the HO. We laid tube under intense pressure from the psuedo GC and the masons who were anxious to pour. Before we could call for inspection, the pour was being delivered. I literally was ankle deep in concrete as I tied off the last loop and struggled to pressure test. The mason and I nearly had a brawl as I yelled to stop the pour. I was outnumbered by the masons 7 to 1. I looked over at the stand-in GC and yelled to stop. He shrugged his shoulders, and allowed the pour to be finished. I slogged out of the concrete, hosed off, and left disgusted. The mason and the stand-in GC later apologized for the fiasco.

Late December now, 3 months later, the slabs were still holding pressure-no problems there. The problem is that the inspector has an issue that the pour was done before he had a chance to see the "underground HVAC". He wants an engineers stamp that it was installed to spec, or else he wants the slabs jackhammered up to see. Keep in mind I have photo's of the job, and a detailed design summary from Wirsbo's ADS.

Now the HO says he is holding me directly responsible for this "engineers stamp". He is presenting me with a paper for me to sign that I will cover all costs associated with this process. We haven't talked yet-this was todays cell phone voice-mail-but my contention is that it is HIS responsibility for whatever the town wants. I didn't order the pour-I tried to stop it! As a GC he should know the inspection procedures, and ultimately, it is his direction under which the construction procedes, and which phase/inpection needs to be completed before the next is started. Am I right? What should I do?

A side note. As a contractor who holds an unlimited HVAC liscense, aren't I the one qualified to design, engineer, and install a heating system? Should I retain legal help?
TIA- Bob

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Carlton

Grateful attorney here

For the last couple days I have been posting my problems here and there were hardworking guys out there who were willing to take the time to donate help to me. Here I feel like perhaps I can return the favor.

I am an attorney, though licensed only in NY state. I am a corporate attorney in finance; I do not know much about construction law. However, here are general tips. The last thing you want to do is sign any paper the HO gives you. That could only hurt you. There is time later for capitulating, if you have to. The last thing you want to do is to admit anything or flinch. Tell the HO, firmly, no. Were you responsible for the floor or just the radials under the floor? It seems to me, from what you said, that the prop GC was responsible for the floor, and you just for the radials underneath. You may have a say in what is between the radials and the upper flooring, but the responsibility for the floor and its timing has to rest with the GC. It is the GC's responsibility to control and coordinate the various subcontractors. GC has to get that engineers stamp, not you. It is HO's problem that they hired a prop GC instead of a real GC. GC has to know local code, etc. and should have known of the requirement.

Now, should you seek legal help? No, not yet. HOWEVER, you should prepare for legal help by writing down all the facts. You have already started by having written this post. Just add to to make sure you cover all the relevant facts, including why the GC is a prop, and why the HO chose the prop. Recall the timing of the floor pour, and importantly, the verbal exchanges where you protested. Do you have any witnesses that could corroborate your story? For now, hold your ground, tell them a firm no, without flinching in the least. Tell them the GC is responsible. Only if they start legal action, or threaten in a credible way to start legal action do you go out and get a QUALIFIED lawyer. If you get a lawyer too early, you will start paying too early and you may not need one at all. However, you have to prepare for needing one, and if you need one, time will be of the essence. That is why you must write down the facts, especially since they are fresh in your mind (and by the time court comes, in 2 yrs, they will not be as fresh).

I know it is fairly non-specific advice, but it should be the strategy to follow. Good luck guy.

Jackchips

I think

it's great advice and thanks for passing it on.

Bob Bona_4

thank you

Carlton, for taking the time to respond..your words carry weight. I am not backing down.

The slab prep was on the mason, I believe he was under the fake GC at the time. I supervised the installation of the insulation, the mesh, and the vapor barrier. My part was to install the tube and components that make up a radiant floor heating system. The finish floor was by others. (not done yet)

I am making a call to the State of CT in the am to quiz the Dept of Consumer Protection about the validity of my liscense, and just how it is that a town official can ignore the meaning of that ticket. I'm sure this will be an exercise in futility, but I have to try. What engineer would sign off/stamp a job he's never seen, much less designed? Isn't that what we did to know how to install the radiant in the first place?

One more thing. When I pulled the permit for the job way back in July, I thought that was it. Turns out, the plumber on the job somehow thought he was doing the radiant(or the HO had told him he was), and pulled a permit for the same. My permit was then invalid-somehow-, a fact I didn't know until 3 weeks ago when I called in for the boiler inspection to fire. It took 5 trips and a letter from the homeowner to get the plumbers name off the permit, and my "lost" permit I filed was suddenly "found". Even if I had had time to call in for inspection of the tube, they wouldn't have found me on the subcontractor permit sheet at the town hall. Let's see what Fri (today) brings...

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hot_rod

Does the city

or town require a heat loss calc and design at the time the permit is pulled? In some areas where i work that is the only way to pull a permit. Only on commercial work do I need an engineers stamp.

Do you have a design to show the building dept? Maybe one that shows the number of loops and length? Is enough tube visinble to indicate loop lengths?

It may be hard to find an engineer willing to stamp something he didn't desigh or see at installation.

Seems like honest, polite negotating with the inspectors would be the best tact. Photos could save your butt in these cases, did anyone, maybe the homeowner photo it?

Tough call. Was an inspection planned and called before the mud arrived?

hot rod
"Expert in Silent Warmth" ™

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Carlton

is there local code

or something that states who has the reponsibility to get the stamp? Is there something that says installer of the project/radiant heat project/whatever, has to get a stamp? What is the custom--is it the GC that gets the stamp or the heat guy? Is getting the stamp part of what you were getting paid to do? Do you have any written documents of engagement--your quote, a contract, etc.--whether between you and HO or you and GC? Do you have copy of GC's engagement with the HO? See what any documentation promises as to approvals, "complete" job, etc.--words like that that are broad and catch-all. (You have to anticipate their arguments.)

Even if this points to you, remember that you did not get the chance to have that done because they insisted on and were pouring floor while you were still in it. They did not give you a chance to do it.

Litigation is lose/lose. Even if you win, it still costs you money, time and time to make money. However, I do not know if there is a compromise here because it seems like potential costs involved in digging up the floor and repairing any damages to tubes and then replacing the floor.

Hope this is further help. The only way I could help more is by reading the documents of engagement and checking the local ordinance/code.

(WARNING TO ALL READERS--Pay attention to your documentation. Make sure it is clear as to who is reponsible for what. Does your documentation need updating? You may frown at the "legalese" b/s written by people like me, but it can save your hide. For instance, who knows if there is an "indemnification" provision in their paperwork and for whose benefit? hmm!)

Duncan_2

Very good question.

We use the Uniform Mechanical Code in this neck of the woods.

I haven't read it lately, but as I recall, the only requirement is that the tubing needs to be pressurized during the pour. There may be some fastening requirements, or tubing ASTM requirements, but I don't think it's ever checked. Hell, half the time, they don't even check the pressure!

Your jurisdiction may have different requirements, Bob, first see what's required.

How many times have we seen disorganized homeowner/contractors get frustrated by all the scheduling, rules, permits, inspections, to the point where they yell and scream at the building department officials? The building department then stonewalls the homeowner for revenge, and gives him a hard time every step of the way.

How many times have we seen a new building department inspector with NO background in the trades who becomes so inflated with the power he now has, that he becomes a little Hitler and makes demands -out of ignorance- for things that are not even required by law? It happens.

You said: "He wants an engineers stamp that it was installed to spec" What exactly is "spec", Bob? This might simply be a war between the homeowner and building department.

By the way... A while ago, I installed a RFH system in a building here that was built with no permits, no photographs, nothing, and it lay idle for years. The guy who bought and finished the place got an architect to sign off on the footers and foundation work and other construction details that were now inaccesible for inspection (like steel rebar in the crete, e.g.). The architect had witnessed the building of the place, knew it was way overbuilt, and was comfortable enough to sign it off. THat was good enough to get the homeowner a passed inpection. For the building department, it's all about covering your a$$. Well... this is Teller County... it may not be as laid back where you are.

Bob Bona_4

Jamie

you could be a lifesaver. Thanks. Monday morn, I am going to the town hall armed with photo's, the Wirsbo design (5 pages), a copy of my ticket to Apple Valley, Minnesota, the WIrsbo HCT member verification, and a whole lot of "earnest". I am meeting the stand-in GC there (he's an ok guy, and he has some photo's as well). I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Maybe a miracle will happen!

Pending the outcome of Monday's showdown at the OK Greenwich Corral, I may be subject to the mercy of the homeowners selected engineer, who doesn't know me or my skills from Adam. I want to avoid this, big time. I'll e-mail you Jamie, and I really appreciate you posting!

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jfox

legal help

I agree that Carlton's advice is good. I would only add that needing to find a QUALIFIED lawyer when "time is of the essence" is not a good spot to be in.

I am assuming from your post that you do not already have a lawyer that you have confidence in that you could just go to. If that is the case, at least think about how to find a qualified lawyer now. It is not necessarily easy.

Talking to tradespeople about their experiences, and talking to lawyers you know is one avenue. Many lawyers will grant an initial interview for free or for a nominal fee. Interviewing (not retaining) some sooner rather than later may be good insurance.

On the job you posted about, it seems to me that you are OK. A "rule of reasonableness" always applies.

Even if you had called in the inspection before you started work, you have no control over when the inspector will show up or if he will show up at all. If somebody else scheduled a concrete pour, and the guy who had been represented to you as the GC allowed the pour without the inspection after you had told the masons and the GC not to, it is unreasonable to hold you responsible for the problem.

I hope this is not too convoluted. It just hit too close to home to not give my two cents worth.

jq

Bob Morrison_2

help with documentation, i.e., stamp

Bob,

As a long time reader and occasional poster on the Wall, I know that your reputation is beyond question and the facts as you've listed them are correct. I am licenced in NY and would be willing to help with the "as-builts" on this project, if you can't find anyone local. If you need me, call at 508-661-2224 or 508-561-7553.

Bob Morrison
Sudbury, MA

Unknown

nice

You guys are outstanding. No kidding. This wall works very well.

Noel

Linda

tankless hot water

We have a tankless hot water oil burner, Burnham. I'm the first one in the shower (second floor) in the morning. It takes a long time to get the water hot. I must turn the mixing valve handle all the way up. Then the water temp fluctuates. This is also the same time that the thermostat calls for heat. Lately there is low water pressure in out area due to frozen water mains. People who shower after me do not seem to have this problem. Help! Linda

Bob Bona_4

Thanks

Bob, for the kind words. I'll keep you posted, and with any luck tomorrow will bring a resolution.- Bob

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Jackchips

Hi Linda,

you may get better results to your question if you do a New Thread, rather than add to this one.

hot_rod

velly interstink

Been following your post Bob. I agree diplomacy is the first step, but sounds to me like you've got an inspector who's just a tad large for his britches. If he insists on demo for the slab in spite of your having both pics and the design program info, he's not worthy of being an inspector. I'm curious too that during the course of securing a permit, no one indicated an inspection of the radiant tubing was necessary. Typical that they assume it's our responsibility to know the varying regs between townships & their inspectors. In spite of following national code guidelines in most of those we deal with, each one has put their thumbprint on the regs. What works on one side of the street, doesn't on the other???

Is this in writing? If not, he can't enforce it. Was the ordinance properly advertised and voted upon (see above) or is this the whim of the inspector? If it's on a whim, he's out of line.

We recently went through a protracted session with a township zoning officer who was way out of line & refused to back down (great big ego). It became necessary to hire an attorney to get the township to sit up and take notice that their employee was out of line. They blinked one day before we were planning to file the lawsuit. We had them by the short ones & they knew it. Diplomacy had no affect in advance of hiring the law dog in our case.



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bruce pirger

FWIW, and not very much, as a DIYer here, I would hold the homeowner/GC completely responsible. When undertaking that responsibilty, sheduling inspections and the various subs is absolutely in his lap. That's what he signed up to do.

I'd have probably killed someone if they started pouring and I was done and completely pressure tested. Geez.

Whether it is an inspector with a big chip on the shoulder or whatever, the GC is at fault for this scheduling problem.

Guess your not as big as the mason, eh? At least I'd of had a chance there! LOL But not with 7 of them.

Bob Bona_4

I

was hoping you would lend a voice Dave..it's seems like the old "big fish in a small pond" symdrome..I'm going for another visit to the town hall tomorrow to see if they are happy with the info I brought down this am.

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Bob Bona_4

yes

they do, HR, and I did. But that was somehow null and void once the plumber pulled a permit for the same work. I really would like to see his calcs. Polite negotioating is all I can do..

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Bob Bona_4

a

rumble would have been pretty soul cleansing at the time, Bruce I have 6 years on the mason, but at 250 and 6-2, I think I coulda took him!

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Carlton

Ithaca

Any guy from Cornell can't be too wrong........."Far above Cayuga's waters" this lawyer got his law degree some years back...

Bob, I hope it all works out well.

kevin_5

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GH

The sun will come up tomorrow

Bob I cant see a problem with what you did with the radiant. Atleast you are heating a thermo mass of
concrete . As you know some people try and heat the wood from under the floor DUH?
As for the attitude of the other people or trades thats a shame. I have found that inspectors
in various locations and municipality have a new found statis and over see much land mass
with little gray mass. kind of like andy and mayberry . good luck




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