Aqua Pex

Mark J Strawcutter

> Having made <BR>
> that point, I feel that pex distributors must be <BR>
> responsible for who they sell to-only certified <BR>
> and educated tradesmen. <BR>
> <BR>
> We can only pray and <BR>
> hope manufacturers distribute new products <BR>
> responsibly and educate/certify.<BR>
> <BR>

I think it makes sense to require certification in order to purchase certain materials. As long as they don't restrict who may obtain that certification/education.

Mark

masterplumb

Aqua -Pex and the like

Let me first start out by saying that I am not knocking anyone that uses it, but..Don't you think that Pex piping on domestic water lines cheapens the trade. I visit the wall often, (but rarely post)and see nothing but complaints about the big box stores and how supply houses shouldnt sell to non-trade customers. I mean look what has happened with P.V.C. drainage piping! Not really anything wrong with it, but any fool can replace a leaking section pipe with p.v.c. piping. I am not knocking homeowners who do their own work but, let that same homeowner try and replace that same leaking section with copper, no-hub, or bell and spigot!!!!A little tougher, isn't it. The next thing you know home depot and the like will be stocking pex water piping and fittings(if they dont already) my point is, if you install aqua pex and something happens to the piping, the average homeowner really wont need you to replace it when a problem does occur,or worse when it comes time for the new bathroom,theyll get their hacksaw, glue can, and aqua pex piping and do their own water,waste, and vents. Stay true to your trade and use copper piping for water, and no-hub,copper,and cast for waste and vents. Chris

zeb_3

I disagree

I feel there are (2) types of people, those who will do it themselves and those who will hire someone. I do not think that the use of potable pex will have any effect on changing people.

Jamie Hall

with all due respect

there's a third type: those who will do it themselves, when they can, and will call a contractor, when they need to -- but always use the best stuff in the best way they know how. I don't do iron pipe -- no way -- but I'm jolly proud of my ability with copper. Do I use (or specify -- I'm a Plant Engineer) plastic? When it's appropriate, youbetcha -- I've got a budget, and there are places and applications where it's the best stuff. Do I use it where it shouldn't be? Not if I can help it.

We should all be most interested in making sure the client gets the a job which does the job right, with the best workmanship and materials at a reasonable price...

Heatermon

The evolution of plumbing products

These "newest" materials, tools, and techniques do not "cheapen" our trade, but rather showcase our commitment to progress. If we turn our backs on better products because "that's not the way we've done it before", we risk being run out of business like the "buggy whip" industry of years ago. The newest inventions enable us to do our jobs better, faster and cheaper, and there is nothing wrong with that. I can plumb homes at least 10 times faster and much easier than my contemporaries of 50 years ago. I also know that they risked their lives on a daily basis to do the same things that I can do today without the dangers or strain on my body. I will always remember the burn marks on my uncles' hands due to the molten lead used to join cast iron soil pipe years ago. I also remember the stories of people dying by being blown up or electrocuited on the jobs. I wonder how many people said "who needs this G.F.I. thingy" when it first came out? I think the statement "be true to your trade" should inspire us to seek out the newest and best inventions and implement them into our business practices. I, for one, do not want to go back to the time when all pipe was cut and hand threaded (without power tools), soil pipe joined with lead and oakum, and bathtubs weighing so much that you could be crushed to death if it fell on you. I love the fact that today there are so many choices available to us and our customers and I am always looking for something "better".

By the way, we have had so much trouble with copper pipes leaking (soil conditions, flux issues, electrolysis issues, poor installation techniques, etc.) that we prefer pex piping due its superiority to copper in our area. Also, without the proper tools and knowledge, which aren't cheap or easily available to the common DIYer, you can't work on these systems anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

From down in the trenches,

I om the heatermon

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Rick Kelly

Let me get this straight

Now we need to protect our trade by not embracing products that improve overall quality, make our own installs easier, and add to our bottom line.

I make my living doing specialty work and selling expertise. If something can be done by a homeowner or DIYer so easily, then I'm probably not trying to make a business out of that kind of work. If someone is, then they must take the bad with the good.

masterplumb

easier

I said nothing about not embracing products that improve quality. Do you think that p.v.c. is better quality then no- hub or cast iron piping? I sure dont.You gotta love the houses plumbed with pvc..you flush the toilet and you can here the water gushing down the pipe downstairs three rooms away. Ever hear that in no hub or c.i.? Im all for making life easier, I was simply making a point that it makes it very easy for the homeowner or handyman to do our work..In my opinion it cheapens the trade. Also where I do alot of work, the city water pressure can be as high as 140 psi. Do you really feel secure installing aqua pex on that type of pressure? I sure dont. So if you feel comfortable installing pex tubing on 140 psi water pressure, then hey, more power to you. May I ask what your specialty work is?

masterplumb

You are taking it to a new level. A GFI is for protection, you also talk about molten lead, well in westchester county we still have cities who's codes still require lead joints underground for cast iron. Ever hear of rubber gaskets for cast iron? My
father to this day at 60 years old wont use them, but I do b/c it makes my life easier. If you clean the copper pipe and fittings correctly, properly flux them, and dont overheat your joints you wont have leaks...sorry...and nobody is talking about cutting cast iron by hand, or threading pipes by hand, and I have customers who still spec cast iron tubs for their bathrooms, but I also use americast as well. As far as aquapex pipe ...maybe to install it today you need special tools that arent available to the average homeowner, but you CAN be sure of one thing, one day you wont!!!!!It will be a compression fitting or some kind of flare that wont require a special tool. Maybe it's just me but I believe it cheapens the trade. Chris( stuck in the 1930's- I guess)

Brian

pex vs copper

You can walk into any hardware store and for about $50.00 get all you need to install copper water lines.I just checked my Wirsbo book and it now costs $850.00 for an expansion tool.I doubt you'll see to many DIY's doing Wirsbo lines.

Brian

masterplumb

Yes today you need the "special tools" to do aqua-pex..you can rest assured that in the future you wont...i'll bet my toe on it.Chris

chuck shaw

when was the last time

you stood in a basement, and saw a properlly installed PVC pipe drain erode? I never have. I have however, seen jobs less then 5 yrs old, eat thru DWV copper, I have seen industrial buildings, that are a little older, rot out the cast iron pipe. And, why would anyone, allow water at 140PSI into a building, go unregulated. I understand, that the pressure is necessary to get to "upper floors", but it should not enter an appartment/office etc, at above 80PSI, well within the range of PEX tubing. Anyone who would install the wrong products for the wrong applications is going to be in a whole lot of trouble anyway, just like the post I saw not too long ago, from the homeowner who wondered if he should use schedule 40 or schedule 80 PVC to pipe his boiler.

The DIY types are already out there, doing it anyway. If they are installing things wrong or right, they don't care. PEX tubing isn't going to change that. You see there is this big orange box, that sells them copper tubing now. And they install type M tubing for water pipe (in Massachusetts, water pipe must be type L). And are very proud of the work.

And, whats worse, is we, as tradesmen have allowed the big orange box, to get bigger. At least in my area, tradesmen (or a large percentage of them) don't return calls, they don't show up on time, they don't call from the road when they are going to be late....they think they work for the phone company, and can show up whenever, because the homeowner has no choice. What would you do in that situation? I know I ended up running my own phone lines through the house, and just had the phone company connect to the outside wires, when they got around to it.

I am so sick of hearing what the DIY centers are doing to us. Follow a few basic rules and they wont make a differance in your life. They are, treat every customer, like you would want your parents to be treated. With common courtosy and simple respect.

I know I drifted a little bit from the origianl theme of the post, and I appoligize for that.


JMO

Chuck Shaw

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masterplumb

pvc

I have never seen pvc rot away.We to must use L tubing on water lines. When was the last time you saw no hub rot out? Cast iron will stay for at least 75 years. Also we have some towns that require (get this) L tubing on waste, yes waste, and you can only use dwv on the vents. Furthermore I know that you have to put a prv on a main with 140 psi, but what happens when the prv fails, and the customers pressure in the house just increased almost 100 percent, do you think hes gonna call you because he now has too much pressure when he showers???? come on. Like I said I dont condem it I just think it cheapens our work. Chris

masterplumb

pvc

I have never seen pvc rot away.We to must use L tubing on water lines. When was the last time you saw no hub rot out? Cast iron will stay for at least 75 years. Also we have some towns that require (get this) L tubing on waste, yes waste, and you can only use dwv on the vents. Furthermore I know that you have to put a prv on a main with 140 psi, but what happens when the prv fails, and the customers pressure in the house just increased almost 100 percent, do you think hes gonna call you because he now has too much pressure when he showers???? come on. Like I said I dont condem it I just think it cheapens our work. Chris

Bob Bona_4

I'm

sure the old timers were saying the same thing when sweat copper fittings appeared in the late 40's. I don't feel that pex cheapens anything however, I do know that this is the most "fragile" piping material yet...first there was cast iron, then steel, then copper, now pex. Application and protection are more crucial than ever for trouble free installation-which is not a problem, if you know the rules..

Having made that point, I feel that pex distributors must be responsible for who they sell to-only certified and educated tradesmen.

We can only pray and hope manufacturers distribute new products responsibly and educate/certify.

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Chris Maderia

Special Tool

You will never see that tool change. You must remember that because Aqua Pex is produced in the Engle Method they are limited and can only produce the tubing one way. Also, the author must remember one thing - that homeowner only gets a 1 year warranty vs 25 years for a HCT member.

Jim_7

More fuel.

So, I guess we don't want to compare Gastite or Wardflex to iron pipe either. Or should I have not taken this direction?

HeavyP

I agree with MasterPlumb, you may not see that tool change but you will see another company make one that doesnt require a tool. Doesnt Wirsbro also make heating pex, that uses compression fittings. Just something to think about.

HeavyP

I agree with MasterPlumb, you may not see that tool change but you will see another company make one that doesnt require a tool. Doesnt Wirsbro also make heating pex, that uses compression fittings. Just something to think about.

kevin_5

PEX is ugly

Compared to straight, beautiful runs of copper. And I agree, PEX tubing DOES put plumbing more within the scope of the DIYer; I've seen the tools sell on ebay whether it's the Wirsbo Pro-Pex tool or the other guy's crimper. I have seen irresponsible wholesalers who will sell to anyone with a pulse. NOW, having said all that, "In the beginning" there was cast and galvanized "and it was good". PVC and copper came along and helped the Pro do a quality job in a fraction of the time while eliminating a lot of the inherent hazards. They ALSO put plumbing more within the grasp of the DIYer. Many pros rejected the new stuff and crowed the merits of the old way and how it was better... but the new stuff stayed. I for one am not comfortable with change. It brings a mixture of good and bad. In high school, I worked 6 years at a Mobil service station. My boss riduculed the "INconvenience stores" popping up everywhere. The old way was better. After all, you don't NEED smut books and donuts at midnight; you NEED a belt, a hose, a real air compressor to fill your low tire, and maybe even someone to fix it! But today there is a self-service joint across the street, and the old Mobil garage is a parking lot. HE should have seen things changing, and made it work for him instead of whining about it. He could have been the one to build across the street. As Dan says: "What business are we in?" Why didn't the phone company invent the cell phone? Why didn't the railroad men invest in airplanes? Why didn't Kodak invent the Polaroid camera? etc... etc... I'm getting used to change. Wiring isn't run in straight beautiful lines, so why do water lines have to be? As proud as we are of our work they're gonna cover it up. I may not like all the changes that are coming, but if they're here to stay I'm not going to waste time fighting them, nor go broke rejecting the advantages that my competitors are happily selling. Kevin

KCA_2

I remember

When I first started out, (I'm showing my age, though I don't feel it), There was talk that copper piping cheapened
the trade. But look where we are now.

:-) Kca

zeb_3

Ugly

Pex is only as ugly as the installer allows. Once the installer learns to work "with" it pex looks great. I set up hot and cold manifolds next to each other(Heatlink) using the "home run" method making nice sweeps on all bends and running lines next to eack other. Heat link makes red and blue pex and has modular manifolds w/ valves and a little plate you can use to label the module. Everyone is impressed w/ it, especially the HO. Each fixture is isolated & labeled in the same location. Best of all " 2 joints" (1) at the manifold and (1) at the fixture.

ScottMP

???

I think it makes sense to require certification in order to purchase certain materials. As long as they don't restrict who may obtain that certification/education.

Mark ,Why do you repeat everything ????

Scott

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Bob Bona_4

right.

Nice meeting you at Wetstock, Scott! I suppose certification will weed out the careless installer. The problem will be keeping a "chain of liability", if you will. I hope I never see CSST or PEX offered to any non-qualified persons, ever.

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masterplumb

Any pics???

O.K, so I am in the minority on this I guess. I would love to see some pictures of houses plumbed with aqua pex. Anybody care to post some for me? Chris

Mark J Strawcutter

ugly vs beautiful

> Wiring isn't run in straight beautiful

> lines, so why do water lines have to be? As proud

> as we are of our work they're gonna cover it up.




Wiring _can_ be run in straight beautiful lines, without kinks and no diagonals.

This sounds like a good opportunity to repeat one of my Dad's sayings:

"You can tell a true craftsman by the way he does the parts nobody will ever see"

Mark

EricR_2

Pex Manifold

This is the manifold that was installed in the house I own. It sure makes working on fixtures easy. It takes about 9 seconds to get hot water to my upstairs bathroom. I

masterplumb

Manifold

O.k. so it looks like you have 3/4 copper supplying 11 1/2" or 3/8" pex branches is this correct? It's not impressive to me (no offense).any other pics?

Dave H_2

How about this one?

And would all 11 ports be flowing at the same time?

I doubt it. As a homeowner also (aren't we all, have to keep that in mind) that the main thing I want when it comes to plumbing is not nice straight lines behind my walls that I will never see, but water when I turn my fuacet on. I don't want to wait for hot water and dump alot of water down the drain.

The smaller lines supplying the fixtures minimize the amount of waste while waiting for hot water.

JMHO, Dave

Mark J Strawcutter

do you mean

the part with the leading > ?

That's so it's clear what I'm responding to.

If something else - then I don't understand your question.

Mark

masterplumb

Volume

Hot water wise it would be very possible to have two showers, a dishwasher and a washing machine running at the same time wouldn't it? You need volume. How about the water lines that are exposed? If you dont want to wait for hot water, install a return line. The pipe size has nothing to do with wasting water while waiting for hot water.You can keep the pex, Ill stick with copper.Chris

jim f

hepex

heres a picture with heat pex and aqua pex connections

John Abbott

Ugly?

I would invite anyone who thinks pex installation is ugly to come and see one of my installations.I am in N.H. and can be reached at 603-608-8124 or at the above E-mail

John

masterplumb

Heat Pex

I use heat pex, and I do NOT have a problem with it, I think it is great, I just do not care for the Aqua Pex. Anyway let's face it, heating or domestic, it's just not as neat as copper. Also, I am certified for Wirsbro Aqua Pex, I just won't use it. Chris

Bill NTSG

Pex

Not the best example , but the only file I could find. This is in an 1800's farm house. Pex made my life a ---- of a lot easier with irregular framing and full dimensional timbers. I can shut off every fixture from the basement. Alberta custom header w/wirsbo aqua-pex valves.

Steve Eayrs

Is pex progress a threat?

I read through all of the letters, and was left wondering............ Why is progress a threat? If a product works well, is faster to install, and overall does everything it is designed to do, there will be nothing you can do to prevent it from happening.

If it proves to go the way of quest, cpvc, and others, (and I doubt it will), then it will still not be a threat.
But it is a threat as long as you think the only reason your needed.... is for soldering joints. Don't want to insult anyone, but come on, how long did it take you to solder a good joint? There are little tricks you pick up here and there, but I would venture to guess that within a few hours of you first attempts, you were doing a fair job, (if you had a good teacher).

What I personally find an insult to this trade, are those who think we are only needed for simple things, which we may not get to do, if its made too simple, when in fact there is so much to learn, about so much stuff!!!

As long as we are providing a good quality, honest service, you will have more work than you can do possibly do. And as long as you remain teachable, and stay ahead of the pack of do-it-your-selfers, on the learning curve, you will not only be endured, but needed and respected.
Who cares if people can buy pex and the tools or not. The fact is we all only have so many hours in our lives and no-one wants to do such things themselves, unless they feel they are backed into a corner, and have no option. (have you ever wondered why plumber jokes seem to be in the same catigory as lawyers?)

A parting thought; How many of you take the time to make your own ice cream, even though it may taste better? Are Tom and Jerry threated by those that do? no...they just try to do the best they can, using the best and most efficient means....... and charge as if their worth it.


Steve

Gerry Harris

T & J

Tom and Jerry can make ice cream? I thought they were cartoon characters.jk. Gerry

Steve Eayrs

opps!

I guess I got my cartoons mixed up with my ice cream.
Its Ben & jerrys, right?

mp1969

Is it not 2002

Chris,
Your cause may be noble but it reminds me of the way the unions fought any labor saving method and lost! If you don't change to superior products and systems you simply are in denial. Wirsbo and pvc piping are simply better systems and make for better installations with longer warranties.
I have been using the Wirsbo system for over 7 years and would not go backwards to copper if they paid me. 2 years warranty versus 25 is a no brainer. It is unfortunately all about cost effectiveness and if you let improved systems get sold only at home centers then we really will be in trouble.
Sounds a little like a little denial and wishful thinking ,both of which may leave you behind!

MP 1969 (Your proactive plumber)

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