Trane Vapor System

Dave_23

How would you recommend arranging and piping the following three items: Vaporstat, back-mount oz/in gauge and back-mount 30 PSI gauge.

I have one tap and pigtail on my boiler to use for this purpose.

It was suggested that code requires I maintain my stock 30 PSI gauge since my blowoff safety valve is rated at 15 PSI. Otherwise, I'd just swap the oz gauge for the PSI gauge and swap the vaporstat for the pressuretrol (easiest/quickest, but may be a safety/code violation in Michigan).

Dave_23

Trane Vapor System

Thanks to the "Companion," I've been able to identify my steam system design. It's virtually identical to the the Trane vapor system depected in the Trane chapter. Over the years, it has been changed to incorporate gas fired boilers. It is presently running with a Weil-McClain EG45 150,000 BTU unit. However, it is missing the two check/swing valves on the return. It also doesn't have the vacuum damper assembly which I'm sure was abandoned long ago. (The house was built in 1926 and was probably coal fired at that time, thus the damper would have made sense) I'm also missing traps on some of the rads.

Are the missing check valves or traps an issue? Generally speaking, the system is dead quiet and performs well, although the return loop gets hot on longer cycles of 15+ minutes or more near rads without traps.

DanHolohan

As you say

it was really about the coal fire. Just keep it on low pressure and enjoy.

Dave_23

As you say (and in the spirit of low pressure)

Thanks, Dan.
1. Should I replace any of the Hoffman #76 main vents with vents that breath easier such as Gorton #2's?
2. Should I replace the "lb." pressure gauge with an "ounce" pressure gauge? (the lb gauge never comes off the peg)
3. Should I replace the stock pressuretrol with a vaporstat? If so, what should I set the cutout and diff at? (The pressuretrol is on a pigtail located per the Weil-McClain specs?)

DanHolohan

I'd say

Yes to #1. There's really no purpose for the #76 anymore, unless you're burning coal.

A gauge that reads in ounces is appropriate.

Yes to the pressuretrol. I'd set it to cut in at 4 ounces and then I'd set the differential for 6 ounces and fiddle with it a bit. Whatever works best is just that.

Maybe Noel and Steamhead will add their thoughts.

Unknown

I concur

I also want to add that you should leave the gauge that's there installed with your new gauge. The code wants a gauge that reads twice the relief valve setpoint.

Noel

Dave_23

Recommendations

Folks,
Thanks for your comments.

Which exact make/model of vaporstat do you recommend? (My existing Honeywell pressurestat is about one year old.)

Given the dimensions of the vaporstat and two gauges (oz and existing lb), I guess I'll have a quite a tree of devices attached to the existing pigtail. Is this correct installation practice?

Jamie Hall

possibly bad steam traps

I have a couple of possibly bad radiator traps on my vapor system (Hoffman), too -- I haven't gotten around to replacing them (yet!), but I will -- and it seems likely (reading Dan's book!) that they may make an improvement on longer runs. Probably not on shorter ones... but on general principles. Some vapor systems didn't use them at all, but depended on carefully adjusting the radiator inlet to just allow what vapor would condense to get in -- which strikes me as a poor man's way (or, possibly, corroded on trap's way!) around the problem. Comments, guys?

Unknown

L408A1132 Honeywell

That one is by ounces, 0-16. Perfect for what you have. One pigtail is fine, until you need two controls, like on a commercial job. Then each control gets it's own.

Be SURE that the pigtail is mounted so that the loop is front-to-back on the control. If it is sideways, the control won't stay level as the loop expands and contracts with temperature changes. The vaporstat has a mercury switch, and it matters more than pressure switches that are not mercury type.

Noel

Dave_23

Having trouble visualizing

Noel,
I'm having trouble visualizing what you mean by "front to back" in your previous message. At present the pigtail loop is in a plane parallel to the front of the radiator. It is mounted to its specified tap on the left side of the boiler.

Dave_23

Recommendations, etc.

Noel,
Thanks. I'm also having trouble locating a oz. gauge. I've found a few 0-3 PSI, but can't tell if they're rated for steam. Any suggestions on this item as well?
Thanks again.

Dave_23

Oz. Pressure gauge

Noel,

Thanks. I'm also having trouble locating a oz. gauge. I've found a few 0-3 PSI, but can't tell if they're rated for steam. Any suggestions on make/model on this item as well?

Thanks again.

DanHolohan

Here's a source:

http://www.weissinstruments.com/catalogs/phc/lowpressure.htm

Unknown

Not so much a poor man's way

as a mathamatician's way. Anybody can put in a radiator and a trap without any math, because the trap acts like brakes when steam hits it. This is more forgiving with people changing the steam pressure, and with radiators that aren't sized carefully.

I really like the orifice concept. It shows some serious thought went into sizing the job.

Noel

Steamhead

Dave, if your system still has

its Direct Return Trap (looks like an oversized jar) you need those check valves. Without them, the Return Trap cannot return the water to the boiler. Of course, if the pressure is kept low, the Return Trap isn't called on to act.

I agree with Noel, Vapor systems should have Vaporstats. But if you have a good Return Trap or Differential Loop, the water will be returned no matter what the boiler pressure. Return Traps and Differential Loops were designed in the days before boilers could be accurately regulated within a few ounces.

I like increasing the stock vent sizes on systems like yours, as the newer boilers steam much faster than the old coal-fired ones did. Gorton #2 vents work very well on Vapor systems.

You really need traps on those radiators, unless there's some other means of keeping the steam from reaching the dry return. The Hoffman 17C trap is a good match for the Trane B1 traps you probably have.

Trane Vapor systems tend to last a long time, with reasonable care. I've worked on several in the Baltimore area, and all they've needed is some long-deferred maintenance.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Dave_23

Direct return trap

Steamhead,

There is no direct return trap on the system. It must have been abandoned along with the vacuum damper. The returns (header and cold) all empty into a "plenum" which is located about 2 to 3 inches or so below the minimum water line (1/4" above bottom of site glass). The plenum (for lack of a better term) is where the check valves would be located in an original Trane system. The plenum connects to the Hartford loop, which returns to the boiler inlet tap.

I will be changing the Hoffman #76's to Gorton #2's as well as adding a Vaporstat/oz gauge.

With the exception of the trapless rads, the system performs amazingly well on low pressure (Dead quiet, comfortable heat, second floor rads heat almost simultaneously with first floor rads.)

I'm hoping that with the addition of the Gorton vents and a Vapor stat, I can squeeze some more efficiency out of the system.

Right now, during a typical Michigan January and February, in my house, with the system I've described in this thread, my worst cast gas heating bill is around $175 per month. This of course includes the hot water heater and gas dryer. I recognize this may be wishful thinking...
-Dave

Dave_23

To all

Folks,

After I replace the main vents, add a vaporstat and adjust it per Dan's recommendations, would anyone like feedback on system performance?

-Dave

Steamhead

YES!

We always like to know how things turned out. Especially on an old beauty like yours.

Don't worry about the missing check valves if the Return Trap is gone. The Vaporstat will manage the pressure so it will never be high enough to keep the water from returning.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

DanHolohan

Sure

as long as it works! ;-)

Dave_23

Striking out on parts

I've called every heating and cooling company in Southeast Michigan looking for the following: L408A1132 vaporstat, 0-15 oz pressure gauge and Gorton #2 vents.

Nobody carries these items or will order them for me. However, One guy would reluctantly order the vaporstat.

I've referenced the yellow pages and my Construction Buyers Guide with no luck on a source.

Anyone know of a one stop shop for these items? I can't believe I've come this far only to hit a dead end on parts.
-Dave

Dave_23

Striking out on parts

I've called every heating and cooling company in Southeast Michigan looking for the following: L408A1132 vaporstat, 0-15 oz pressure gauge and Gorton #2 vents.

Nobody carries these items or will order them for me. However, One guy would reluctantly order the vaporstat.

I've referenced the yellow pages and my Construction Buyers Guide with no luck on a source.

Anyone know of a one stop shop for these items? I can't believe I've come this far only to hit a dead end on parts. -Dave

DanHolohan

Maybe

Bill W. from Honeywell will be able to help.

BillW@honeywell

Vaporstat

Sorry you are getting the run around. The Vaporstats are from our commercial Flame Safeguard division, and are restricted to Flame Safeguard Distributors. In Michigan,we have four...Muskegon,Fitzpatrick Electrical Supply,616 722 6621, Beheler/Young in Grand Rapids 616 531 1453, Cochrane in Livonia. 734 466 9899 or Wolf & Brinker in Kalamazoo at 616 343 2567. The part number is valid, and it is a stock item. My counterpart in your area is Brenda Lucas, you can call her at 614 717 2210. I hope you are a contractor, because Flame Safeguard parts are not available to homeowners, and that may be a reason why they are unable to order the product.

Steamhead

Gorton Vents

You can call Gorton at 908-276-1323 - they're in New Jersey. Ask for Ken Kunz and tell him I sent you. If no one in your area carries their gear, they will sell you what you need direct.

Gorton's web site is www.gorton-valves.com .

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Dave_23

Thanks!

Gorton #2's, Vaporstat and Weiss pressure gauge are on their way. I'll let you know how it goes in a week or two.
-Dave

tp tunstall

trane b-1

if you decide to change the internals, be careful, they made a variety of b-1 replacements over the years. integral seats, removeable seats, belllowws attached to the cover etc... always a good idea to have your steam traps working properly...

Dave_23

Gauge/Vaporstat installation practices

How would you recommend arranging and piping the following three items: Vaporstat, back-mount oz/in gauge and back-mount 30 PSI gauge.

I have one tap and pigtail on my boiler to use for this purpose.

It was suggested that code requires I maintain my stock 30 PSI gauge since my blowoff safety valve is rated at 15 PSI. Otherwise, I'd just swap the oz gauge for the PSI gauge and swap the vaporstat for the pressuretrol (easiest/quickest, but may be a safety/code violation in Michigan).

BillW@honeywell

Installation

Go to http://hbctechlit.honeywell.com and download installation instructions. I'm in New Jersey, I have no idea what Michigan's codes are...SE can you help?

Dave_23

Instructions

Bill,
I've tried with three different web browsers and the installatino Adobe Acrobat file that loads isn't complete.

What I'm looking for is a recommended piping arrangement, off the boiler pigtail, to accomodate two 2-1/2" gauges and a vaporstat that doesn't impair the performance of any of the above, especially the vaporstat.
-Dave

Unknown

Dave

You can put a brass tee on the pigtail in an arrangement that won't hold water except where the loop in the pigtail is. You can put more than one in if you need to. The gauges won't effect the operation of the vaporstat.

Noel

Dave_23

Piping

My sense from your response is to "stack" another T onto the pigtail gauge end for the second gauge. (and short nipple if required to clear the diaphram on the vaporstat)

Correct?

Unknown

yes

.

Dave_23

Results and findings

Folks,
I placed an ounce gauge and vaporstat on my trane system Z (modified for natural gas fired boiler). It turns out that the system operates/peaks at about 1.6 ounces/sq. in.

Interestingly, this is enough pressure to heat all radiators evenly and quickly.

However, the vaporstat is only capable of serving as a safety device. It doesn't have the differential adjustment range to be useful at such low pressures. (I have it set as follows: Main=4.0 oz, Diff=2.0 oz). Frankly, I'm not sure it's even worth interrupting the boiler's firing within a system that operates at 1.6 oz/sq. in.

Dan and Steam, do you still feel I should replace my three Hoffman #76's main vents with Gorton #2's?

-Dave

Dave_23

Trane system upgrades - results

Folks,

I placed an ounce gauge and vaporstat on my trane system Z (modified for natural gas fired boiler). It turns out that the system operates/peaks at about 1.6 ounces/sq. in.

Interestingly, this is enough pressure to heat all radiators evenly and quickly.

However, the vaporstat is only capable of serving as a safety device. It doesn't have the differential adjustment range to be useful at such low pressures. (I have it set as follows: Main=4.0 oz, Diff=2.0 oz). Frankly, I'm not sure it's even worth interrupting the boiler's firing within a system that operates at 1.6 oz/sq. in.

Dan and Steam, do you still feel I should replace my three Hoffman #76's main vents with Gorton #2's?

-Dave

Dave_23

Trane near boiler piping photos

Here are some picture of my near boiler piping showing the recent addition of WM boiler, vaporstat, Gorton #2's, etc. Please excuse the insulation. It's a work in progress.

Note that in the current configuration, my Trane system has been modified for natural gas. There is no vacuum damper assembly or check valves.

When operating at full steam, the pressure is 1.0 oz. and all rads (12 total) heat quietly and evenly.

Steamhead

If everything heats up on an ounce

you can't get any better! Reuben Trane is surely smiling on you from Heaven.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

PAUL_13

LWCO

I HAVE A CLEVERBROOKS STEAM BOILER AT A HIGHSCHOOL THAT ONCE A DAY GOES DOWN ON LW AND SET OFF THE ALARM I'VE CHECK THE FOLLOWING WATER PH ' PRIMING & SURGING 'STEAM TRAPS ' CAVITATING FEED PUMP 'FEED VALVE' ALL SEEM OK' I MUST BE MISSING SOMETHING NEED SOME INPUT (help) THANKS