And now, back to Steam Heat - S. Milne

[Deleted User]

okay , now im getting confused

this whole disscussion stated cause of the ''low water content'' boiler thing. i think...now, am i wrong here... if the square foot edr of the biulding was matched or slightly exceeded by the square foot edr of the replacement boiler, would not the new boiler therefore HAVE to have the required amount of water necessary anyhow?????ohhh, my brains starting to hurt now..

Unknown

It'll be OK

> this whole disscussion stated cause of the ''low

> water content'' boiler thing. i think...now, am i

> wrong here... if the square foot edr of the

> biulding was matched or slightly exceeded by the

> square foot edr of the replacement boiler, would

> not the new boiler therefore HAVE to have the

> required amount of water necessary

> anyhow?????ohhh, my brains starting to hurt now..



Dave has some outstanding ideas; like this one. The thing with steam systems, they work better with the simplest devices. Everything deteriorates over time and the fewer moving parts, the better. He just showed us how to add water right where it is need, at the water line of the boiler. The original disscusion was WHEN do you need extra water. That must involve which boiler model and what size and type system. It is kind of hard to fix the traps and measure the water coming back from them if this project waits till the boiler can't be run. It's 2 projects on the same system, actually. I didn't run without a pump until I was quite sure of what the system did by watching it run.

It talked to me. Not before I had done quite a bit of talking to IT. Now it don't talk so much.

Unknown

It'll be OK

Dave has some outstanding ideas; like this one. The thing with steam systems, they work better with the simplest devices. Everything deteriorates over time and the fewer moving parts, the better. He just showed us how to add water right where it is needed, at the water line of the boiler. The original disscusion was WHEN do you need extra water. That must involve which boiler model and what size and type system. It is kind of hard to fix the traps and measure the water coming back from them if this project waits till the boiler can't be run. It's 2 projects on the same system, actually. I didn't run without a pump until I was quite sure of what the system did by watching it run.

It talked to me. Not before I had done quite a bit of talking to IT. Now it don't talk so much.

Boilerpro

Noel and Gerry, water content of boiler and EDR

A thought, Two sytems with the same EDR using the same boiler, and the same condensate return time One runs out of water the other does not. One system has the old large columnar radiators that hold lots of steam, the other has the newer tube style rads that only hold a little bit o' steam. The boiler must have alot more steam ( and therefore water)out in the system with the columnar radiation to produce the same amount of heat as the newer more compact tube radiators. The columnar system needs more boiler water content than the tube type system. Sound Good?

Boilerpro

Steamhead

Radiator Steam (and Air) Capacities

from Dan's Dead Men's Steam School Workbook (comes with the video) which every Wallhead should have:

Small-tube- .009 cubic feet per square foot EDR;
Large-tube- .013;
Column- .025;
Wall- .028;
Flue- .029 (the real real old ones like those I swapped to Mad Dog).

For the record, I've never had to add a boiler-feed pump yet- even with big old column or flue rads.

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Unknown

I guess we are all

on the same threshold. I'm still in the camp that likes gravity where it will work, which isn't in every case. The other thought process is that every job that gets sold a boiler with a lower water content than what is coming out holds, should get a punp. That is a safe way to do things.

I have had the luxury of dealing with certain vapor systems in depth and Scott's system is one I have dealt with. I hope to sit down with Scott & Co. to talk about this system some more.

Every steam system is as different as the buildings that they are in. This has been a very good post, so far.

Noel

[Deleted User]

this has been a good thread

ive learned alot off this one and if nothing else have been given much to ponder. and now BOILERPRO'S given me more to ponder....like a treadmill for the brain, steam heat is....but im becoming addicted.

DanHolohan

Photos

Guys, I hid the photos so that this great thread would fit better on the screen. Just click on the links and they'll open in a new window. Thanks.

Unknown

quantifying

Using Steamhead's biggest numbers, for flue type radiators, we can multiply out a 50 sq. ft. EDR radiator (by 0.029) and get 1.45 cubic feet of steam in the radiator. Divide that by 1700 to find how much water that is. The condensed water that is in there is the same as on a 50 sq. ft. Thintube radiator. 50 sq. ft. is 50 sq. ft. no matter how far apart the walls are. They condense the same. The small tubed radiator holds 0.45 cubic feet of volume.

I think that there would be 1/1700 of a cubic foot of water more in the flue type radiator.

How's my math. If I'm looking at this wrong, somebody please help me out. My thoughts are that this IS more than double the steam volume in the big radiators than what the small tube radiators can contain. But it still amounts to ounces, not gallons.

Measure each job for water return time and system content and judge each one separately. There really is no blanket rule, unless you want to play it safe and put a pump in on every job.

Boilerpro

Noel, Steam volume of radiators

I think I will try to put my thought another way. A 50 sq ft columnar radiator and a 50 sq ft tube type radiator will produce the same amount of condensate, ONCE BOTH ARE FULL OF STEAM and operating at a steady state. However, the columnar radiator will need to be filled with nearly three times the amount of steam before it reaches full output. This means that the columnar radiator will contain three times the amount of water as the tube type I believe this is were boiler water content comes into play when at looking different systems, besides return time. Think in terms of dynamic conditions, not steady state, and I think you will see what I see.

Another comparison. When balancing a one pipe steam system that has rads of various types, The old columnar rads need bigger air vents than the tube types because they contain more air. In order for the steam to get into these large rads quickly, the air needs to be let out more quickly. Rads that contain more air, contain more steam, and therefore more water, as much as three times as much, according to Steamhead's numbers. New low water content boilers may simple not have enough water to fill all that space in the system, even though they have the btu's to heat all the rads. What do you think?

Boilerpro

Unknown

1 more step.

We are saying the same thing. Do the math. How much more WATER does that extra steam consist of? In a system that is, say, 300,000 BTUH input, How much more water can a collumn radiator system hold than a thin tube system holds?

I've heard twice as much. Maybe more. Is that gallons? Tens of gallons? Ounces? How much water is IN that 300K boiler, to begin with? How MUCH will the waterline drop, due to water volume, but not due to bad traps or high pressure? A pint? A gallon? More? How many inches? Twice as much is not an answer that helps me measure.

When you figure it on paper; measure it in real life and real time, and they match, it is a beautiful thing.

Why are we avoiding the math?

Boilerpro

Noel, your math seems right on, another idea I haven't seen yet

The difference between steam/ condensed water content from tube rads and columnar rads is next to nothing, so we are basically back to return time and stacking water in the return lines as the real factors that effect the boiler water content needs. Just checking the number on stacking water. Assuming two 1 1/4 inch black schedule 40 returns stacking up 28 inches (1 psi) together they contain .37 gallons, which Ibelieve is significant with the little bit of water we have to work with in newer boilers. That idea of putting in big return drips could spell DOOM for many installations. Say, how much water do you have to work with in your boilers? I've calculated this for the Dunkirk Plymouths as best as possible and they give you about 12 to 15 minutes steam time until they are off on low water.

Boilerpro

Unknown

OK

The 300,000 BTUH input gas steam boiler holds 8.4 gallons. Completely full it holds 10.8 gallons. It probably would take in about a gallon or less as the float control cycles, if it were run with a boiler feed tank. The level of the pump control is usually 2" below the normal water level, well above the safety factor. That may be room for a couple of gallons total water that can move around in the system and only show up at the boiler as a couple of inches.

Every system is a little different. There are wide buildings that return slower than tall buildings with the same boiler and type of system. Almost every time, if someone wants a safe guess, the pump will be it.

Some of them don't need a feed tank and pump. That's the part that I enjoy to no end....Noel

ScottMP

O.K. not the end

I just did'nt want this thread to end. But really I thank you all for this discussion. Noel and Steamhead you have given me alot to think about and I know this system will work all the better for everyones input.

Dan ...do I go in the hall of fame for longest thread. Free clam chowda maybe.

Happy Fourth everybody, we started early here.. burgers and dogs with cold beer for the crew.

Scott

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DanHolohan

it's the longest thread

that I've seen. Perhaps this is the immortal one?

Unknown

I hate to let it drop off....

How much water do you think is in the header and equalizer? The risers and the steam space in the boiler? Just what is it that we measure with the gauge glass when the boiler is syeaming? See picture...

Unknown

Here, Scott, is an article on it

http://www.bellgossett.com/Press/TechTalkMay2002.pdf

Unknown

One more time,

someone asked about tanks. This post is a good starting point.