And now, back to Steam Heat - S. Milne

Steamhead

is pretty slick! I'll have to remember that one.

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ScottMP

Old steam heat

I thought you guys would like to see some old steam piping. This is a system we are quoting to replace. We are trying to be pro-active here and change the system before it decides to fail. These pictures are the house trap and vent. Notice how the fittings have been painted. The new hoffman vents are for a vapor/vacum system which this is. Hopefully I'll have shot of the new boiler.

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Unknown

I like those jobs....

that one reminds me of the early ones, but has the return trap on it, too. Some good relative pages are pp 229-246 and on 270. (http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-3)

To think that a vaporstat prevents the water from staying in the pipes every bit as well as those components. (Of course, you KNOW that I would leave them right there, they are beautifully piped and do nothing till the pressure gets too high.)...Noel

Online Sheriff \"Murph\"

you'll do fine

on this one, no soldering, so you can just screw up the fittings however you can!!

Steamhead

That's a Hoffman \"Controlled Heat\" Vapor System

you can see the Hoffman name on the Return Trap. It probably has radiator traps piped between the ends of the steam mains and dry returns. These are your "main vents". If the steam distribution is sluggish, these traps are probably bad.

There should be no steam at all in the dry return. If there is, you have a bad trap somewhere. If the traps have never been serviced since the system was installed, it would be a good idea to do them all now. No need to replace the entire trap unit- just get new innards.

When burning oil or gas, you don't need vacuum vents. I like to use Gorton #2 vents on this type of system, as they vent about 4 times as fast as Hoffman #75 or #76 vents do.

Vapor systems were top-of-the-line in their day, and are still some of the best systems out there if properly maintained.

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Dan Foley1

Gorton Vents

Steamhead,

Where do you get Gorton vents? I can't seem to find anyone in the DC area who stocks them. -DF

Mark Eatherton1

Why do you think that they painted

the fittings? Wish I had that kind of time to spend on a job. I could polish the copper pipes, paint the black ones gold and black and circle my gages in red!

Some things are a picture in beauty. This one is.

To the archives with this!!

ME

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ScottMP

painting

Yea , that allways blow me away, that they would have the time to paint the fittings. Now we know what the apprentice did back then. I have actually seen jobs where the rim of the soil pipe was painted gold.

Steamhead I know this will kill you, but will probable remove the house trap since will need to install a boiler feed tank on this. About two years ago I replaced all the crossover traps and insulated the mains, as the insulation had been removed year ago.

Scott

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Unknown

OOHhh

WHY would you put a PUMP on that one?

ScottMP

Pump

We are going to replace the boiler and due to the lower water content of the new boiler I THOUGHT it was a good idea. Tell me why it is'nt ? I respect you and steamhead a great deal, so your opinion matters. Tell me more.

Scott

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Steamhead

You don't need a pump

just make sure that the system is vented properly, and that the new boiler has a Vaporstat instead of a pressuretrol. This way, the steam will distribute quickly, and won't be compressed by too much pressure.

Remember, water expands 1700 times as it turns to steam. That's more than enough to fill that system with steam, even with a newer low-content boiler.

The Return Trap (you call it a house trap) should stay right where it is. Technically you don't need it since the Vaporstat manages the pressure so it doesn't get too high. But since it's there, it's best to leave it in place as a backup.

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Steamhead

Gorton vents

Try this link-

http://www.gorton-valves.com

They can tell you where to get their gear, and if no one in your area carries it they will sell to you direct.

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Unknown

OK

I'd like to compare it to a waste pipe system in a 70 year old house. Gravity got the stuff out all those years. Why would a pump make things better?

The water can come back gravity until the water in the return rises to the point that the return gets horizontal. That's when the floats in the vent trap and in the return trap start doing thier thing, with the check valves dancing along with the tune. (I'm thinking raggae)That happened when the coal fire got away.

The vaporstat gives reliable enough control that all of that can be prevented. The water never touches the floats. I even set the water level visually, with a clear hose on the boiler drain, as in a manometer. Long before the old 30# gauge starts to tremble, the hose water level rises. See photo. The vaporstat adjusts the height of the water and is really constant. I've done this, Scott, and pulled OUT the pumps to make it quiet. I'm 100% in agreement with all of Steamhead's post, too. The man amazes me.

Think of the cost savings.....

Ok, the picture now.

ScottMP

Please help

O.K. why then do'es every one tell me that the boiler will flood from the condensate returning after a call for heat. The way it is explain to me is the water content in the new boiler is smaller and as the system fills it will add more water to the system and then be over filled at the end of the call ???

Steam head, want to make a trip to the North Shore of Boston. Fried clams, cold beer, and lots of old Steam. No burgers in sauce.. just lots of butter.

I will Archive what you both have given and design the new boiler as you described. Thanks so much ... the wall, what a place.

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Unknown

If he won't

I will!

Unknown

Lost Art Companion

has a good description of how it works on page 132. There never is much water in the system, unless the pressure gets away. Then it only is in the returns (at first). If the pressuretrol is left on the boiler, I can understand having trouble controlling the water level, and putting in a pump. It just isn't nessesary, with a vaporstat. Noel

ScottMP

lost art companion

Noel I did'nt pick up on the companion at first. I pulled out LAOSH and said " Noel is nuts this is what we are talking about". . I should have known better. Thanks pal.

Let Me know when you are in the area again.

Scott

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[Deleted User]

you know you really just want that return trap

for you office museum......lol

George Carey_2

boiler feed tank

Scott,

The reason you might consider a boiler feed tank has to do with the water content of the residential replacement steam boiler vs. the system's time lag. Regarding the pressure issue, using a vaporstat can and will control the level at which the returning condensate needs to back up, above the boiler's water line, to overcome the boiler's operating pressure. The concern is when the boiler comes on, it produces steam which heads out to the system. Once there it gives up its latent heat, turns back to condensate and gravity drains back to the boiler.(Approx. 1/2 gpm per 1000 EDR) Problems can arise if the time lag of the returning condensate exceeds the water content of the new boiler, causing the water feeder to be over-active and eventually flood the boiler. Typically, in these older "mansions",when the boiler is replaced, the homeowners expect the "new" system to work without a hitch. There are times when the new boiler's water content works perfectly well with the existing system's return rate, HOWEVER, there are also plenty of jobs where that is simply not the case. I have found it easier to explain all of this up front before the new boiler goes. A majority of the time, they opt for the feed tank because it takes all the guess work out of whether their system's time lag will work with the new boiler.

ScottMP

Wall conversation

Thanks for speaking up George this is just what the wall is all about. Not many places( maybe none ) where we can discuss the finer points of old steam systems and learn so much.

George this is just what I have allways heard about large systems, when replacing the boilers.

Steamhead and Noel, do you feel diferently about this if the system is a older larger home ? I know that I have not mentioned ( nor have I measured yet ) the connected load. The logic makes sense when thinking baout the smalleer water content of new boilers. This would be a Burnham steam boiler. Glenn Stanton... do you have an opinion here.

"Bring out your dead .. "

Scott

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Steamhead

September

is when Mad Dog is scheduled to fire up his NEW steam system. You can bet I'll head up that way then- think about attending the startup also, Scott. When have you seen someone install a new steam system?

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Steamhead

You could do the same thing

by installing a slightly bigger boiler and down-firing it to match the load. Still a lot cheaper than a pump.

Noel has a LOT of experience with de-pumping Vapor systems (he's pretty amazing too), and his never ran out of boiler water. I don't remember exactly but I believe the boilers he worked with were pretty closely matched to the radiation load- right, Noel?

Scott, if you're worried about time lag you can measure this with the old boiler (assuming it still runs). If you find a real long lag, find the cause (maybe a bad trap or clogged return) and fix it. Most of the condensate in a Vapor system comes back thru the dry return, and unlike wet returns these are rarely clogged.

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ScottMP

Thanks

For all the info. Yea, I know Noel is very well versed in Steam. We met last summer and I have been reading his post for quite some time. He has a wealth of knowledge on this stuff and from reading your post over the years I know you do also. I could'nt recieve this type of help anywhere else.

Hello Dan.... whats your thought on this. Condesate pump or not ????

Scott

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DanHolohan

I'd be reluctant

to put a feed pump in a house. I think that if the pipes are well insulated and the traps are working and the returns are clear then the return trap can get the job done. If it's working, that is. If it's not, there's another alternative. "Jammer Don" Conyngham of Eastern Penn Supply has his contractors rip the guts out of the receiver and keep the casting. Then he has them install a probe-type low-water cutoff in the receiver. This is wired to a switching relay, which is wired to two small solenoid valves - one in the steam line (normally closed) to the receiver and the other to the equalizing line (normally open) that goes back to the dry return. It works like a charm, and for a lot less money than a feed pump and the extra traps that you need once you add the feed pump.

You can't go wrong with a feed pump, of course. It's just that I don't think it's always necessary, especially in a house. Just another guy's opinon.

Unknown

Aww, shucks.

Thanks, fellas. Let me share some thoughts as to why I took out pumps. They caused me trouble in certain cases. They cost a lot to maintain. If the system is holding back water, a pump won't cure that. If the system floods a boiler after it shuts off, it surely is going to fill that little tank. It's smaller. It's got the air vent on it, too. Remember, the OLD vent is gone, now. How is the air going to get through all that water in the tank and vent? Why, MORE PRESSURE, right? We'll BLOW it through. (Why does it sound like someone throwing up when my heat starts in the morning?) Now all that water is on the floor. We can get more NEXT cycle. But the boiler water is nice and steady. 3 pounds is enough pressure to blow through that stack of water in the vent riser. Now we have a system that CAN use a pressuretrol. We can run this 8 ounce system at 48 ounces on, and any differential you want. It won't matter, because when this system tries to get air back in to drain down,, it can't. The vent is flooded. It sounds like a kid playing with a straw in his milk. She's going into a vacuum, every time.

The pipes still make noises. If the water isn't coming back, there is a problem. It isn't in the supplies, because the boiler is piped properly and the pipes are insulated fully, the water is clean and the pressure is low; 1/2 psi. It must be in the radiators or the returns. Shut off all the radiator supply valves and get your traps on the mains to work. The surface of the traps will be about 205° with an infrared temperature gun. Downstream, a foot away in the return piping, the temp will be around 100-120 right when you start up cold, and steam is moving. If it is blowing through, it will be near 200°. Listen at the vent for air to stop moving. Test temps right away. Once it is stable, check your boiler's water line. See all of this in your mind? Now test a radiator trap. Just turn it on and check the trap temp and the return temp. Turn it back off. Do another one. One at a time, you will get an idea of what to order from Lenny. Oh, and check your boiler's water line. I think you'll find the same thing the dead guy knew. That reciever (cast iron ham) IS big enough. Anybody think it isn't? Hoffman probably sized it for them. I'm only speculating here, of course.

If it has steam in the returns when it runs, that steam goes BOTH ways from the bad trap. It heads back up the return and shuts off more traps and prevents air from being there. That condenses and pulls in ..... more steam, and sort of looks like water is slow to come back. More pressure will only back more water out of the boiler. A pump will require more pressure to blow through all that water. That blowing steam gives you nice 200° condensate, so buy LOTS of pump seals. You will need chemicals for ALL THAT NEW WATER. Pull a pump off the tank yearly and haul the rust out. It means a night call if you don't.

I'd fix the traps. I like fixing traps with a ray-gun. I get to go everywhere in all of these old buildings. I learn. I like to share this stuff. I guess you could put a pump in if you want to. The boiler won't flood......

Noel

[Deleted User]

would not a small tank piped into the wet return

act as a resevoir for extra water if the newer less water content boiler was to need it, so that a feed valve would not be called on to feed? wouldn't the tank just act as a fat piece of pipe? and still have the advantage of no moving parts? i would guess it would need an equalizer pipe on it. any thoughts?

Steamhead

It could work that way

and yes, I think you'd need an equalizer to (1) get the air out of the tank on fill-up and (2) allow the level in the tank to drop when needed. I haven't done it like this though- anyone out there ever use a setup like this?

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DanHolohan

I've already

got two! You've got to come and visit someday.

Unknown

the issue

here, is that the tank isn't rated for pressure. It requires an open pipe vent that reaches above the boiler water line.

Other than that, the tank is where the make-up water is brought in. It keeps itself flooded. You could size it bigger for the bad traps, or just fix the traps.

If you fix the traps, the water comes back. Period. All the other stuff is unnecessary, and expensive to maintain.

Here, look at this picture.

Unknown

And this picture

This is the difference. That stuff needed some parts. Often. It made the system noisey, because, in this case, the air had to run UP the high return to get to the tank and vent. The water was trying to go DOWN the high return to get to the end and to the low return. That made it counterflow; and now it was 1 size too small. It was noisey at startup.

By using an air vent at the right location, everything worked AS DESIGNED. No reinventing is needed.

This was a primative system. It had a vent trap, but no receiver, or return trap. It RELIED on pressure at 8 ounces to keep that vent open.

That's all it asks. That and working traps.

Unknown

This is the vent location.

The returns drop down at this point. The only water to "stay in the system" is in this riser. This is the "B" dimension. It amounts to very little water, unles the water gets up into the float trap.

Unknown

the vent trap

These were used alone like this before the Hoffman Differential loop came out.

Unknown

The steam main

went two ways from the boiler. The High return started at the end of the shorter main and wrapped around the whole building, downhill, to the vent trap and air vent above it. At that point, it dropped down and kept going at the floor level for a second lap around. That came back to the Hartford loop. Here is the end of the short main; and the high end of the high return. Behind the drain line, there...Cool, huh?

Unknown

Those 2 F&T traps are the only traps on the mains.

The low returns stay full and the high returns stay empty. I knew this would work out after I measured the trap height above the boiler water line. Both were 30". Exactly!

Just like it says in the Lost Art.

Sometime we can talk about indirect water heaters on steam boilers.......

[Deleted User]

Noah, i'm a bit confused here, i wasn't

> The low returns stay full and the high returns

> stay empty. I knew this would work out after I

> measured the trap height above the boiler water

> line. Both were 30". Exactly!

>

> Just like it

> says in the Lost Art.

>

> Sometime we can talk

> about indirect water heaters on steam

> boilers.......

[Deleted User]

Noel, i agree on leaving the system gravity, but

i was suggesting IF he's taking out a boiler that has alot of water and putting in a low water content boiler, that WHAT IF a piece of really large pipe was put into the wet return to act as a reservoir so there is extra water for the boiler. and everything else stays the same with the system, but yes the traps all fixed. ive not done this so i was hypothetically wondering if this would work? i'm just curious? i dont have groups of experiance with this type of system so thats why i asked. hope its not a dumb question. any thoughts?

Unknown

Yeah.

Without a pump on it, it would fill to the outlet level of the thing and just sit there. If it was in the wet return, it would add to the water content, but never be empty. It would not help. At a half gallon of condensate per 1,000 feet of EDR, as mentioned earlier, there isn't much water out in the system. That would be from a boiler around 300,000 BTUH input, considering the variables. That's a good sized boiler. A half gallon of water wouldn't drop the water line much.

The old timers did the math for us. I'm only refering to Scott's system, here. Every system is different. Between 1900 and 1950, they varied as much as computers did in the 1980-2002 period.

But these steam systems are still performing.

[Deleted User]

Noel, i think the ''light bulb'' in my head just went on

so if the boiler pressure was exerted down on its water the water in the wet return would not slide into the boiler till enough water returned to ''stack'' up the vertical returns to weigh enough to push it into the boiler. i think. and thats why the tank or fat pipe idea wouldn't work. cause if the water's coming back, it then doesnt matter if there is 10 gallons or 100 gallons in the wet returns. i think....did i get that right Noel?

Unknown

yup

> so if the boiler pressure was exerted down on its

> water the water in the wet return would not slide

> into the boiler till enough water returned to

> ''stack'' up the vertical returns to weigh enough

> to push it into the boiler. i think. and thats

> why the tank or fat pipe idea wouldn't work.

> cause if the water's coming back, it then doesnt

> matter if there is 10 gallons or 100 gallons in

> the wet returns. i think....did i get that right

> Noal?

Unknown

yup

That's it!

Boilerpro

Tanks

Getting in on this conversation late, but Hydrotherm has (or had) a piping layout to use a tank to help low water content boilers not run out of water on systems have alot of steam volume. Basically the bottom of the tank was connected to the bottom of the boiler and the top of the tank to a balance pipe at steam pressure off the boiler (or maybe header). The water level in the tank would move up and down with the water level in the boiler giving you some extra water capacity for the boiler. With this setup the larger the area of the tank is between the opetating water levels, the more water you have to work with. Saw a boiler hooked up with a little 10 gallon water heater like this in a home a few years ago... it ws probably needed because the returns weren't piped right, but that's another story. I plan on using this idea the next time I come across a sysetm that needs a boiler feed pump, but can use gravity to return water to the boiler. I think ther are alot of applications out there for this tank idea.

Boilerpro