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CGA weil mclain

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  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 7,410
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1887239#Comment_1887239

    Thanks. The manual can be found. But it would just be nice if WM was on the ball with their "Pro Tools" app. I can get all the info I want about a 40 year old boiler, but nothing about a current one. No excuse.

    109A_5
  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34

    according to the documentation a false flame fault requires a manual reset which I have done that. There is another scenario where the system has been running and the thermostat is calling for heat because it has not meet the heat demand, however when the radiator wasn't as hot as it should be. The temp on the boiler has dropped to around 95 F. The boiler is set for 190 and triggers once it goes below 170. This is very odd.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,883

    " The temp on the boiler has dropped to around 95 F. The boiler is set for 190 and triggers once it goes below 170. This is very odd. "

    If no errors are present on the boiler with this scenario I'd verify the boiler is actually getting the call for heat.

    If it is getting a call for heat is it cycling through ignition attempts as the moving water cools down ?

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34

    according to 2 thermostat it is calling for heat. could it be the lwco not detect proper temp?

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,883

    At the control board P3 / C3 connector (Yellow arrow) I would measure the voltages to verify the boiler is actually being commanded on. The wire function designations are at the Red arrow. With a call for heat the voltages should be as stated below.

    C3-1 (R wire) to C3-2 (W wire) = 0 Volts

    C3-1 (R wire) to C3-3 (C wire) = 24 VAC

    C3-2 (W wire) to C3-3 (C wire) = 24 VAC

    If the thermostat / thermostat circuit is intermittent or otherwise defective you can't expect the boiler to come on when expected.

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34
    edited February 12

    My boiler only connected with C3-1 and C3-2. The circulator was on as well. I don't think the circulator could come if heat wasn't called, would it?

    Will find out more tomorrow when the tech comes, hopefully they can figure it out. Had a CGA gold for 20 years never had any issues. I replaced it because we gutted the house last summer.

    The positive things from this whole experience is that I am convince there is a lot of good in this world. you guys are all strangers but so willing to offer advice, help and support. Also I learned a ton about hydronic heating systems and I am no longer afraid.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,883

    Yes if the boiler's circulator, controlled by the boiler's controller is running there probably is a call for heat. Great observation.

    If there is no boiler activity (except the circulator) when their should be, and no alarms except the occasional Flame Fault one possible common denominator is the controller. If it is the controller getting it changed under warranty would save you some $$$.

    I'm assuming your boiler does not supply your DHW (Domestic Hot Water).

    P3 - 3 / C3 - 3 connector circuit is the C wire (may not be used in your situation) but it is a good verification that the 24 VAC does exist and looks good, since C3-1 and C3-2 when the thermostat circuit is closed there will be 0 Volts between C3-1 and C3-2. With no call for heat there should be 24 VAC across C3-1 and C3-2.

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34
    edited February 12

    another interesting observation here, according to the documentation a false flame fault needs a manual reset. This morning it kicked out a false flame fault and I didn't do the manual reset. After sometime it reset itself.

    I think the temp drop off is due to this condition.

  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34
    edited February 13

    a weil mclain tech came and they suggested to add a ground that is connected to the water pipe. they said series 4 is very new and they had similar experience with other customers and adding a ground to the water pipe solved that problem. This sounds like a manufacturer defect. what do you guys think?

    The existing ground was connected to the boiler housing and the boiler has water pipes coming into it. Not sure if those grounds are all connected but let see how it goes.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,883

    The building electrical ground, grounding conductors, cold water pipe, ground rods, neutral etc. should be all bonded together at the Electrical Service equipment. In my opinion adding the ground wire as the Tech suggests will probably do nothing in your case, however you may need to play the game to fulfill a warranty claim.

    False Flame is the control board detecting current via the flame rectification process when a flame logically should not be present. How an additional ground path would eliminate a erroneous or parasitic current in the flame rectification detection path seems very odd to me.

    To me if the boiler was floating in the air, the gas pipe was glass or bottled gas floating with it, and the Hot and Neutral power wires were transformer isolated (no metallic Equipment grounding at all, no bonded Neutral), all the water piping for space heating was floating in the air also, with no water fill connection the flame detection process should still work perfectly, with no false alarms.

    Add the Ground bonding wire, see what happens. Did the Tech specify the two points to be connected and the wire gauge ? If you do it yourself it should not cost much.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34

    the tech did the wiring. looks like the same gauge as the wire for thermostat. he said that is what weil mclain wants to start and we go from there. he also mentioned they just help another customer going through the same situation, where they had replace every electronic parts and adding the ground was the fix.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,883

    Do you live near an AM Radio Broadcast tower ? Anyway, I'm curious if it solves anything. Thermostat wire is pretty wimpy as far as ground bonding is concerned.

    Where is the wire connected to ? The boiler jacket and a cold water pipe. Like the cold water pipe that already goes to the boiler to fill it?

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • 4GenPlumber
    4GenPlumber Member Posts: 115

    WM made me re-ground the jacket of the boiler to supply piping to get a gas valve once. Its kinda there go-to solution. Make sure the tech tests gas pressure though.

  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34
    edited February 14

    the tech added a ground to the same ground that was prewired and connected to the cold water supply line. it is 2 wire combined together so it is pretty thick.

    no i don’t live anywhere near a radio station.

    4genplumber did it work after you installed the ground ?

  • 4GenPlumber
    4GenPlumber Member Posts: 115

    Nope, that was just the hoop I had to jump through to get the gas valve.

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 7,410

    It might need a direct ground to a water pipe. The Beckett AqauaSmart requires it for their LWCO. Its the ground that makes the circuit.

    Screenshot_20260214_072707_Samsung Notes.jpg

    Its Rev. I on these Unity-CI boards. I'll bet a Rev. II is probably not far off.

  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34

    after the ground is added, haven’t noticed any issues. hope this continues.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,883
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1888199#Comment_1888199

    I don't want to sound too negative, I guess I'd say if the added ground wire solves all these nuisance issues. Why not just put it into the manual.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34
    IMG_3294.jpeg

    ground didn’t fixed the problem. this is such an annoying issue. what is next?

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 3,883

    Did the other issue of the boiler not firing when it should go away ?

    Was the power to the boiler and the control board verified good ?

    Flame sensor and wiring inspected, flame rectification current measured ?

    Still an active warranty claim ?

    Anything special when it acts up, time of day,etc. or does it seem totally random.

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1887972#Comment_1887972

    As @4GenPlumber stated it could be a sticking gas valve, it happens.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34
    edited February 17

    it is totally random. the tech recommended to run a ground from boiler room to the meter room which is on different end of the house. i am not sure what else was checked but said that was recommended by WM.

    is there a way to check for earth ground? I see an earth ground connected to the water pipe in the meter room.

    IMG_3295.jpeg
  • tcassano87
    tcassano87 Member Posts: 134

    this is a long thread so not sure if it’s been confirmed or not. But has anyone witnessed there being a flame when there shouldn’t be?

    Or has anyone witnessed the fault happening in real time

  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34

    the issue is very random. I only know about it when the temp in the house has dropped while the thermostat is calling for heat. i.e last night the heat was scheduled to turn off at 11:00PM but the temp started to drop around 10:15, when I checked, sure enough it had the fault.

    Honestly I am not sure what the tech checked because I wasn't there.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,404

    I ran into this once a long time ago. Turned out the pilot valve, part of the "gas valve", wasn't always closing completely, and on the next call it detected a pilot flame out of sequence and wouldn't start. It was almost impossible to see from the front. A new gas valve fixed the problem.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    heathead
  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34
    edited February 19
    IMG_3302.jpeg

    this is super frustrating. it threw a manual limit fault. looks like there is leak from the lwco again even after it was tighten and re-doped. i think i got a lemon here.

    the tech opened the panel and looks like leaks from the lwco

  • loadii
    loadii Member Posts: 34

    now they are going to replace the computer board and the gas valve. they said it is possible that the leaky lwco is from cold start and normal to have condensation. I just don't buy it but that is the process that WM require to go through.

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