Crane Vapor System ??

EBEBRATT-Ed

My nephew's grandfather had a 1920s house with a vapor system. They also had an addition built in the 50s with HW heat. They used the tankless in the old gas fired vapor steam boiler (originally coal fired) to heat the HW addition which I guess never heated well.

As the grandfather aged (he was in his 90s) he complained of lack of heat in the addition called the "Pine Room".

He had no less than 4 plumbers work on this, and they told him it was air bound but after they bled it and starred at it a while they threw up their hands and left.

They got to me and I went and looked and said its air bound. The old man grumbled and said "that's what they all say". It wasn't air bound. It had a Taco 110 1" supply that split and each side fed only 2 CI rads on each side with a 3/4" return on each side so the pipe is oversized if anything.

I came to the conclusion the 110 didn't have enough head to pump through the large tankless. So I replaced it with a Taco111. This was at least 30 years ago. It worked and I never went back.

Now he passed away and they rented the place. Some plumber replaced the old boiler with a Utica 150,000 input gas HW boiler probably around 2000 and converted the vapor system to hot water so all HW now. The boiler is way oversized if anything.

Fast forward to now

circ pump was leaking so he asked me to look at it. The expansion tank has rust spots, PRV leaking and the boiler needs a new relief valve

The plumber used my 111 pump for the main house and used the 007 that came with the boiler for the "Pine Room". Now that the tankless restriction is gone the 007 does fine for that.

The main house (converted steam) heats but it seems sluggish, so I started looking at that.

Of course the rad capacity is reduced about 40% going from steam to water so that may be part of it. High limit is set to 180, could boost it to 190

I know it was a vapor system but the only evidence in the basement is a loop seal between the supply and return at each end of the main. The plumber removed 1 loop seal and put a ball valve in the other one which is closed

The rads are mostly ARCO (American radiator) with an odd Burnham or two. Because it was vapor it had no air vents, and the "plumber" didn't install any air vents on the rads when converting it to HW. Somehow the air seems to get out but not that that's right.

On each rad is a 90 deg pack less angle valve lever handle (top tapping of rad) and the return low on the opposites side with a 90-degree union 90.

Both the union 90 and the rad valve are CRANE no model #.

So my concerns are:

Maybe inadequate rad capacity from the steam to HW conversion. May have to do a HL and compare it to the rad size.

Lack of air vents on rads

Are their orifices in the Crane graduated valve or the union elbows? I would think there has to be to have kept the steam out of the returns.

Wondering if this is restricting the water flow?

I was supposed to be retired and too old for this and he will probably want to rent it asap (although he has a ton of other work to do in the place, that may by me enough time to plod along). I guess it will give me something to do.

And I haven't even mentioned the 100-year-old wiring

Comments???

Also I would post some pics but never seem to be able to do that on this site. What's the trick?

I can post PDfs but not pics.

Jamie Hall

The Crane valves had orifices calibrated to the radiator to which they were attached. Probably still do… since you have to completely disassemble the valve to remove them…

However, there is the odd chance that with high temperature circulating water they may be more or less in balance with what the heating load is in the space, or at worst with the capacity of the radiator.

So… rather than taking them apart or replacing them, I think I would accept the flow restriction, which will appear as greater head loss in the heating loops.

HOWEVER that makes it even more important than usual that the main circulating pump or pumps for the zone be piped with the expansion tank on the INLET of the pump, and close to it, and that the pressure reducing valve from the domestic system be attached in the same place.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Jamie Hall

Yeah that is a concern of mine as well the circulator location that is. Of course the "plumber" put the circs on the return pumping toward the tank because thats what plumbers do. As you might guess changing that would be a nightmare. If I can wait for the weather to moderate, I will take 1 rad out and drill and tap for the air vent as I doubt, I can get the 1/8" plug out after being used on steam and it is a slotted screwdriver plug (ugh) and check the rad return 90 and the valve out and look at them.

The only good news is there are only 6 rads I have to deal with the graduated valve and vent plugs and 2 rads with only vent plugs to fix as they have standard rad valves I think.

I have a place I can get a pressure gauge on the pump discharge. If I can get a gauge on the pump suction and get an idea of the restriction, then I will see what I have to do. Not real practical to move the circs without ripping the whole job apart. I would like to avoid that.

Ty

mattmia2

maybe try torch and a hand impact driver on the bleeder plugs?

mattmia2

are the crane valves the ones with the orifice that is kind of a thimble that jams in to the valve?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@mattmia2

I haven't seen the inside of the valves yet. Yes maybe an impact will work

mattmia2

i think you need to teach your relative that wants to make money off of this how to take the vapor valves apart and remove the orifice.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Spent some time there this weekend. It heats but is sluggish. I did a radiation survey. As posted above the main house was steam (vapor) converted to hot water and the addition (1950) was always hot water.

And the survey says:

With steam in the main house and 170 deg (average) water in the addition total radiation output was 71,032

With 170 (average) water in everything (today) 59,040

If I up the water temp from 170 average to 180 average 62,331

So while I was there the stats were set at 60 (house vacant). It was maintaining temp but it takes a long time to get there. About 12,000 btu was lost in the steam to water conversion. As mentioned above The first thing I have to do is replace the EX tank, feeder and pressure relief valve , add a balancing valve to one split zone and put coin vents on all the radiation (old steam CI rads) that they never put vents on during the conversion. The rads are all hot except for the split zone that one side lags so adding a balance valve should fix that. So the air from the old steam rads is getting back to the main vent in the basement eventually. And investigate if the vapor valve and return elbows have any orifices in them. Then reevaluate when the venting is fixed. This is one old job that I think maybe slightly under radiated. It is now after the steam -water conversion

Funny surveying the radiation I have 1 Weil McLain rad, 2 ARCO Corto, 3 Burnhams, 3 National radiator and 3 ARCO.

And to top it off with the radiation load above the boiler installed in 1999 Utica MGB 150,000 input. So the heating capacity of that is about115,000