My steam boiler water got a little contaminated, so what can we learn?

ethicalpaul

My boiler started surging a little bit, I think because I accidentally contaminated it after one of my experiments, so I took advantage of that to make a video showing my attempts to get things back to normal.

I also use the minimal surging to talk about the question of "what is wet steam" so see what you think:

https://youtu.be/QH__rUjmzz8

mattmia2

vacation?

ethicalpaul

No, I recorded and edited this last weekend, but my vacation does start today! Wait till you see my next couple videos…things are getting interesting over here

EBEBRATT-Ed

I watched it earlier. Those sight glasses really tell the story. Amazing

Paul messed with his boiler and now has to fix it LOL. That will keep you busy on vacation.

mattmia2

was that radiator new? if it is i'm guessing that is where the oil came from, not so much the fittings or dope.

phones have all sorts of noise reduction built in, that isn't helping you pick up the sound of the surging. sometimes if you dig deep enough you can turn it off.

mattmia2

you need a twitch stream of your boiler.

that is more or less the cleanest basement anyone ever posts here

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878197#Comment_1878197

I think you're right about the radiator. I remembered that after I made the video. And I think what happened was that the oil mixed with my alkaline 8-way-treated water and made soap. This is what was making the bubbles and explained why skimming didn't remove it. Anyway that's my current theory

But it cleared right up after I drained it.

In editing I boosted the sections in the video where I held up the phone and you can hear it. Thanks for watching!

Precaud

Interesting video, as always.

Why not put the water level back where it belongs? I find your premise for running it high questionable. In every other respect I can think of, folks here strongly advise users to follow the manufacturer's instructions, they know what they're doing, right? Why would it be different for water level? Don't you think the upper inside of the chamber(s) is getting constantly bathed in boiling H2O?

My boiler developed a hole in the top of one section from being run for decades at the minimum water level, using the LWCO's level as the operating level. Except for regular blowdowns, noone told me (or the previous owner) how to operate it, or what the correct water level is on the sight glass. Or that it was up to us to monitor and maintain it.

mattmia2

you need to pour what you drained off in to a separation funnel:

https://youtu.be/cp2cxd67K-M?t=1446

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878202#Comment_1878202

it could have been mixed in from the surging too(and possibly combined with the detergent), if you let it settle for an hour or so then heated it to just below boiling you might have got a layer of oil out.

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878203#Comment_1878203

Thanks for watching and for the question!

Sometimes they know what they're doing, but I feel there are times when things can be done differently. The reasons I like to run my water level are first because I want to keep the tops of the sections cooler. Second, because then more of the heat from the combustion gases is transferred (this is a side effect of having the tops of the sections cooler). There is more transfer of heat when there is a greater temperature differential.

And yes I think the upper inside of the sections is getting constantly bathed in boiling water…that is the point. When it's dry it gets too hot, which as you stated resulted in a hole in the top of your boiler. So my question is why aren't you running your water level higher?

It may be because when you run it higher you are more likely to have carryover. But I can see if I have carryover and then do something about it.

So that is the answer to the question of why do I run my water level higher than recommended!

mattmia2

the manual is a compromise of multiple factors, some of which may not apply to your situation. among other things they are probably trying to cover les than ideal near boiler piping. probably the conditions it was tested under for the various certifications and it was probably somewhat arbitrarily picked.

Precaud

"And yes I think the upper inside of the sections is getting constantly bathed in boiling water…that is the point."

So if the point of a higher water level is for the upper surface to run "cooler", that would be measurable, yes? An infrared thermometer should be able to pick it up. My bet is, once the water is boiling and steam is being produced, there will not be any difference.

"So my question is why aren't you running your water level higher?"

Mine has been at the recommended water level (it's clearly marked on the front of the boiler) once the mistake was understood.

ethicalpaul

It may be measurable but I’d have to remove the jacket I think. For me it’s obvious enough without measuring and since I feel it causes no harm I’m good with it.

It sounds like we both agree that lower isn’t good and this is why I don’t like people relying on auto-feeders. They spend too much time at lower levels

Precaud

It sounds like we both agree that lower isn’t good and this is why I don’t like people relying on auto-feeders. They spend too much time at lower levels

Totally agree with that.

Perr_y32

This is a good example of why steam water quality matters. Even small contamination changes surface tension and causes surging, which leads to wet steam and uneven heat. The takeaway is simple, avoid additives unless required, skim slowly and thoroughly, and give the boiler time to stabilize after any work. Clear water and calm waterline matter more than most people think.

ethicalpaul

I agree with you except the additive part. I don’t use additives to correct water quality, but I use them to greatly reduce corrosion.

It was just the smallest amount of (probably) oil this time and the effect was considerable

patrykrebisz

in one of your previous videos you had great success with Squick. any reason not to go that route first?

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878281#Comment_1878281

if you watched the video, he did.

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878281#Comment_1878281

yes I did try some, but I didn’t put very much in. Also I don’t know how completely it removes oil…it may be that the amount of surging in the video is about as low as you can get with Squick, I don’t know

EBEBRATT-Ed

I think @ethicalpaul sabotaged his own boiler so he would have something to do on vacation to keep busy.

"Sorry honey I can't go Christmas Shopping I have to fix the boiler"

ethicalpaul

It's not a bad theory, but in fact, it's been doing this since last spring and I've been procrastinating dealing with it for months!!

mattmia2

i waited until today to go grocery shopping for the final stuff for xmas because it was 15 with a dusting of snow yesterday…

Precaud

Well at least he's getting to use his boiler… It's been so warm and sunny here (15-20º above normal all month), mine comes on maybe 1 or 2 cycles per day (before sunrise), some days not at all. The passive solar brings it up to 75+ during the day and that's often enough to carry it through. The only way I get my boiler fix is to come to the Steam Room ! 😀 😛

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878365#Comment_1878365

oh I’ve been running it like this, but yes it’s colder in Michigan than NJ but we’ve had snow and everything!

109A_5

@Precaud Maybe measure the exhaust gas temperature at different water levels. If the boiler water at a higher level absorbs more of the heat from the burner the exhaust gas temperature may be lower and the metal at the top of the heat exchanger may be cooler.

patrykrebisz

in one of your other videos you show workings of Squick. i think it would be a perfect case to test it out by using the "right" amount (since you plan to replace the oily water anyway).

showing sightglass when you see the header madness would be helpful. it seems the water level in yours only dances by about 1/2in and yet the result is the reverse waterfall…

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878406#Comment_1878406

even better, just do a combustion gas analysis on each level. I have an analyzer and forgot I was going to do this 😂

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878407#Comment_1878407

I did show the gauge glass. We can see the water level isn’t going to move much because the water isn’t getting to the header or main.

in one of my early videos with my old boiler we see what happens with full on surging with carryover. Boiler water fills the main and the water level dives to the bottom of the gauge glass. At that time I only had a sight glass on my end-of-main drip but it showed what was happening

I’m not that interested in Squick to dump a whole can into my boiler. It’s an interesting product but skimming is better IMO

Precaud

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1878420#Comment_1878420

If the aim is to show it is more efficient, you need to include gas consumption too.
In the 80's there was a wood stove testing facility here, right across the street from my then-business. His setup was quite complex to measure combustion & heater efficiency.

ethicalpaul

I don’t think anything I do to the water will affect gas consumption. The burners sit well below the water, blissfully ignorant of what I’m doing in the boiler.

Precaud

How much more water is in the overfilled vs normal load? The energy to boil the diffference has to come from somewhere.

Pardon my skepticism, but unlesss everything else remains constant, going by "feel" will be fun and rewarding but isn't conclusive. To produce a quantifiable result for small changes like this would take measurements averaged over time and pretty rigorous control of the many extraneous variables.

Another ? I have; how much of your experiment depends on having a drop header?

ethicalpaul

oh I see what you mean. That can be determined by run time, I don’t need to measure the gas consumption. The gas use will be constant during the run time.

This isn’t really an experiment I’m interested in. I am not running my water level higher to save gas, I’m running it higher primarily to keep my sections cooler in order to make my boiler last longer than me. I stated that in the video I think.

Another variable that makes it hard for me to gauge gas use is my two hot water loops running off this boiler. They “steal” heat from the water, and coincidentally having more water in the boiler provides more of a buffer for those loops.

In my boiler it is about a gallon per inch on the gauge glass so I’m running maybe two extra gallons.

The drop header does not affect fuel use or efficiency in any significant way. I know people and books state that dryer steam is more “efficient” but I disagree with that.

mattmia2

my guess would be you will transfer slightly more energy to the water because the transfer to a liquid is far better than to a gas(although there is a lot of splashing even in a well behave boiler) but you will have slightly more standby loss from heating that extra water and losing it to the basement. my guess would be changes in weather cause far more losses than any gains or losses in changing the water line slightly

you need a camera in one of the tapings above the water line to see what is happening there next.

ethicalpaul

my guess would be you will transfer slightly more energy to the water because the transfer to a liquid is far better than to a gas(although there is a lot of splashing even in a well behave boiler)

I agree with you and I am very ok with the splashing—that will put a film of liquid water on the interior of the castings which will easily convert to steam taking heat away.

but you will have slightly more standby loss from heating that extra water and losing it to the basement.

That's OK, remember I am pumping that hot water upstairs to my bathroom floor and living room floor.

my guess would be changes in weather cause far more losses than any gains or losses in changing the water line slightly

Yep I agree with you here also which is why I'm not concerned with fuel usage when it comes to this water line issue.

you need a camera in one of the tapings above the water line to see what is happening there next.

I know! I've seen some commercial boiler videos that featured the interior.

Eastman

Have you ever looked into boiling chips? They are like little stones that promote boiling apparently.

ethicalpaul

Sounds like snake oil, do you have a link to these chips? To my understanding water has no trouble boiling at 212 (at my elevation). In fact, it's a legal obligation!

109A_5

I think the boiling chips would minimize the behavior that @ethicalpaul actually desires.

mattmia2

it provides a site for the boiling to begin. probably does noting in a rough cast iron casting. in a glass beaker the water can become superheated then all suddenly flash boil at once when a shock or some other disturbance gives it a place to start. in chem labs they will put little glass beads in the bottom of a beaker to keep that from happening. it can happen in smooth polished stainless pans too although not very common. it is common if you microwave water in a smooth glass or ceramic vessel then as soon as you try to ick it up the superheated water gets shocked and it suddenly all boils at once on your hands

ethicalpaul

Ahh thanks @mattmia2 I'm familiar with that phenomenon. I agree in a boiler there are lots of rough surfaces for the boiling to start.

I think the boiling chips would minimize the behavior that @ethicalpaul actually desires.

No, I am OK with normal boiling in my boiler

Eastman

@ethicalpaul

I agree, they do sound like snake oil, but they are legit as described by @mattmia2. And I doubt they would do anything in a steam boiler. I just thought they might be something you'd want to keep in mind if you're looking for stuff to experiment with.