Downspout drains underground under brick patio — no backup, but no water at exit either
Hey all.
I’m having issues with one of my downspouts. The downspout goes into the ground and goes across my patio underneath a brick patio — so I can’t actually see what’s going on under there.
I ran water into the downspout for about 5 minutes. It didn’t back up at all, but I also noticed that nothing came out of the exit where the pipe is supposed to discharge.
So now I’m trying to figure out what that means. My only guess is that there’s a break or separation somewhere underground, and the water is leaking into the soil or foundation (I see moisture intrusion in my tile and hardwood in the room next to that downspout, which is what prompted me to go investigating in the first place). I don't think it's clogged because if it were, then I should surely see water backup at the entrance of the downspout
I’m considering running a camera or snake through it, but open to ideas. I'll either have to buy a borescope to do this or call in a power rodding plumber on monday...
Edit: Here's a pic of the relevant area of my property:
the red star on the far right is the discharge location
the yellow arrow points to another downspout where I ran water but was able to observe
the red arrow points to the downspout in question where I ran water but was not able to observe water existing at the discharge (red star).
before anyone asks, I don't think there's any other possible above ground discharge point for this downspout. idk if it's possible for me to be connected to the underground sewer directly though...
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Comments
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I would also suspect a break underground. I think you're on the right track with the borescope
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you could shove a sewer rod or cable in it and see what happens too, if it comes out the other end or if it stops somewhere or if a lot goes somewhere else.
if you have well draining soil the hose may not be enough water to saturate wherever the leak is and come out the other end. depending on where the leak ism that may or may not be a problem.
it may connect in to the drain tile around the foundation.
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4" pipe? How long of a run. A few years back we strapped a phone in video mode on an RC model and ran it up some irrigation piping. I think it was 10" diameter however.
Most all sewer cleaners have sewer cameras these days.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
i bought like a $30 night vision security camera from harbor freight that came with like a 50' cable and duct taped it to a sewer rod.
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I could go to a hidden drywell too. Camera'ing it is a good idea. Mad Dog
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If your basement walls are cinder block they will leak water and really make things messy. Have a sewer cleaner come in and send their camera down the pipe to see what is going on as it will become very, very, very expensive repair project if there is no sump pump as the water will percolate through a cinder block wall.
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The one on the left (red arrow) may be piped to a dry well and not piped to the drain on the right (yellow arrow)
For your own peace of mind, using a camera is a good idea.
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If the camera doesn’t help, they also make non toxic tracer dye. Municipal sewer might give you some.
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Thanks for all the comments guys.
I got this borescope today but haven't had the time to use it yet. Hopefully it'll work.
I wanted to add a few other details. So when I blasted water into the downspout on the left side (the red arrow one), I had my friend put his ears on the downspout on the right one (the yellow one) and he could hear water flowing. This seems to suggest that the 2 downspouts are connected on the same network (as expected), so I think that might rule out the dry well idea? If they weren't connected on the same network, then I don't think he'd be able to hear anything.
Another clarification is that part of the house between the red and yellow downspouts is the sunroom. It's an addition built in 1986. It was built on top of a concrete slab so there's no basement underneath. I'm seeing some water intrusion in that room unfortunately that appears to be coming from the ground. That's what sent me on this scooby doo mission in the first place… Below's a pic of water damage in that room and also another angle of the downspout (in this pic, the downspout marked with the red arrow is the one on the right):
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Do you have willow trees near the home? They may have broken through the pipe joints or perforations.
With the exposed damage you may very well end up removing the bricks to find it if the pavers were not mudded in place.
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I don't think I have any willow trees, but I have LOTS of trees as you can see in your pic.
Are willow trees particularly distructive? Just curious why you mentioned willow trees in particular
I actually took some pavers in the area off and it looks like it's just sitting on earth. I don't see any mortar underneath0 -
Willows are the masters of pipe and foundation destruction where water is concerned, I have 12 foot diameter willow trees that have damaged my sand filter septic system and I have to spend $5,000.00 to get rid of them.
Both Hardwood and softwood trees will seek water and can have surface roots. That is a reason you see a great deal of sidewalk damage as the roots are reaching for the rain gutters.
When arborists plant hardwood trees instead of slow growing Blue Phitzer Junipers or Yews that can be shaped in raised beds you see a great deal of sidewalk damage.
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Ah I see, thanks for explaining. I know I have some pine trees in the yard. There are some other trees and idk the name of them.
Unfortunately, I have a couple trees growing right next to the property (one of them is right by that french door to the left of the pic in the OP. that particular tree is literally within a foot of the foundation)…I was considering getting them removed but some people told me that whatever damage they've caused to the foundation has already been done and removing them might actually make things worse
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I had my masonary guy come take a look and he said he wouldn't be surprised if the pipe under the patio broke given it's one of those corrugated perforated drainage pipes. He recommended replacing it with PVC if I do find it's defective.
I'm planning on using my borescope this afternoon to see what's happening.0 -
Cut the trees down and burn out the stumps with a big bag of matchlight charcoal if you cannot remove them with a stump grinder or excavator. You will not know if the basement wall is damaged unless you have a wall failure.
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Ok some other updates from today:
- I used the endoscope/borescope I got from Amazon (this one
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I couldn't thread through much. Maybe got 3'-4' and couldn't get it to move forward, so not much to learn there - My masonry guy from earlier today suggested blasting water for a good 30min (a few days ago, I only did it for 5min or so) to see if I start seeing water at the discharge, and indeed I did after probably 15-20min. This probably raises more questions than it resolved however… e.g., how in the world does it take that long for the water to reach the discharge?? fwiw when I ran water in to the downspout on the right side (the yellow one), it took less than 30 seconds for me to start seeing water coming out of the discharge.
the straight line distance between the red and yellow marked down spouts is about 15' and presumably it's a pretty straight section of pipe connecting the 2 downspouts below ground, so I don't know how in the world it takes so much longer for the water in the red downspout to reach that discharge….. i suppose there could be a clog, but then again, it should probably take 5-10min to fill that entire network of pipes with water, not 15-20min. i still thinks there's probably a leak somewhere underground.
1 - I used the endoscope/borescope I got from Amazon (this one
)
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A sewer cleaner with a jetter is another option. They have reverse heads that blast water back out as it runs in
If you have access to a pressure washer get a head like this, and run it in
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
you might need to attach some sort of almost ball shaped guide an inch or 2 in diameter just behind the camera on that borescope to let it ride over the corrugations instead of jam and wedge in to them.
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I actually bought this pressure washer on sale last week: https://www.bestbuy.com/product/greenworks-pro-electric-pressure-washer-up-to-2300-psi-at-1-2-gpm-green/BL6VJXCP3C
I've never used one before and haven't opened it yet. I was going to return it because I read bad things about green works after buying it. Maybe I'll keep it and try it on the downspout. But how does the water jet navigate turns though?
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I did think of something along those lines, like drilling a hole in a tennis ball and attaching the camera through it. Is there a specific tool for this purpose? I tried googling what you suggested and didn't see anything that I'd think would work.
Ultimately, I still have a hard time seeing how this thing is going to manage to turn corners.
Also, I mispoke in last night's comment. I scoped from the floor drain actually (the one next to the downspout and right in front of the door). I haven't tried any of the 2 labeled downspouts but I imagine I will have the same issue trying to turn corners, especailly when it hits the ground. My scope kept getting stuck. I imagine specialized plumbers will have much more expensive equipment that can navigate corners or a maze-like network with ease?In the afternoon/evening, I'm going to try blasting water again and see if it gets to the discharge faster than yesterday. If it does, then I think the network is less blocked than it was yesterday. At this point, I think it's likely there there's a leak AND a (partial) blockage.
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You obviously have root damage from ingress if you cannot pass the borescope through it.
Before you go any further you should invest in a good sewer tape from a plumbing supply company and zipo tie the end of the sewer tape behind the camera head and every 5 feet after that and then pass it through the piping if possible as the sewer tape will provide you with the fulcrum/stiffness needed to push the camera cable through it UNLESS and only unless the drain pipe is totally blocked like mine were.
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The interior of the pipe is perforated. That's the main reason why it's getting stuck unfortunately.
But I probably do have root damage somewhere and that's probably what's causing a leak.
Will the method you suggested also work for navigating corners? I have a hard time seeing how this thing is going to be able to turn corners. One of the reasons why I decided to go from the floor drain instead of the downspout is so that I don't have to turn the 90 degree corner one it goes into the ground.
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It will navigate the corners it just takes patience to push it through by using the sewer tape attached to it as the sewer tape is stiffer than the fiber optic cable. You just have to be sure that you have a zip tie every five feet to assure it stays rigid.
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Are you sure there are fittings in the line? Sometimes that corrugated pipe bends enough that ells are not needed
They have jetters that fit in 1-1/2” pipe and turn around fittings.
My wife is in the the sewer and drain business, I read these industry magazines to see all the unique tools available
They have cameras and jetters on tracks, like a micro bulldozer, those probably walk over corrugations. Maybe not around tight bends
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Got it, thanks. I will give this a try. I'm not entirely sure how this works but probably because I haven't used sewer tape before, but why do you need zip ties if the sewer tape is going to make the camera cord rigid?
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Idk if there are fittings. There are junctions though, probably y-shaped, and something must be there to connect them together?
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Wait, is this the sewer tape? https://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-3-4-in-x-100-ft-E-2731-Drain-Cleaning-Exposed-Sewer-Rod-Flat-Sewer-Tape-w-4-Sided-Spear-Tip-Carrier-62565/202826662
I probably don't need much but still 100 ft for almost $200 seems really expensive. I thought they'd be priced like regular tape lol0 -
You want to make the cable and camera stiffer to assure it does not try to make a U turn in the pipe.
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If you have a real mess of roots and do not want to rip the patio up the next option is to invest in enough ROOTX to kill the roots and dissolve them in the pipe by pouring the powder down the floor drain and pouting 10 gallons of water in after the powder to make the root killing foam and do this every year.
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Thanks. Do you have any suggestions on where to get sewer tape? I'm not sure if I'm looking at the right thing? At $200, I feel like I should probably just get a specialized plumber to come in and do this work for me, but I could invest in stuff for future yearly maintenance.
If there is root damage, then that means getting of the roots will reveal holes in the pipe which will probably need to be replaced…. my masonry guy told me that I should just go with pvc in the future if we do have to tear up that part of the patio to replace the pipe0 -
A sewer tap, even a cable will not do much for roots, just push through.
It needs to have a spinning root cutter head on a sewer cable.
RootX will kill off the roots, but you still need to flush the ball out.
Personally I would get a pro that can identify, fix and offer mitigation options. It needs to be cleaned first, then send a camera in to pinpoint the breaks or other issues.
The can put liners in broken or separated lines now. To avoid any disruption of slabs or buildings.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Any large plumbing supply house will have the sewer tape you need.
Hiring a sewer cleaner to come and scope the piping in the down spouts and the floor drains will be definitive for you to make a decision as to whether the patio has to be ripped out or you can safely use ROOTX.
If your down spouts have a clear end discharge point to a drainage ditch all the better as they can be jet rodded or snaked from the open end but if they are laid in a bed of stone for drainage that is another matter as another decision will have to be made.
The decision being whether a combined sump pit black plastic basin with a sump pump to a ditch is needed to eliminate using the perforated piping entirely but the patio would have to be ripped up to some extent to combine the drain spouts using solid pipe to the solid plastic sump basin with the discharge below the frost line to an open drainage ditch point.
If you have a foundation drain surrounding your home with a clear line of sight drainage point that drains well you can tie in the down spouts in those two drain pipe sections but you will need a backhoe to do the excavation and make it larger enough to allow the work to be done safely using plywood and lumber for shoring but it would be faster to just rip put the patio pavers and then replace it as the dirt would have to be pulled away from the foundation and dumped away from the hole.
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look on ebay for sewer rod/tape and filter for under $75 or so. like 20 years ago I paid like $50 for a 100' 3/4" general homeowner grade rod but the cost of steel and antitrust activity in retail sales has driven the cost of new name brand way up.
also if you want to do digging, you can probably find it for much less used on ebay from people that don't know what it is so it won't say "sewer" or "tape" or "rod" in the listing so you will have to be creative.
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real sewer cameras have a bulbous head on them that will turn the somewhat gradual corners that sewers should have.
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I think I'm going to get a specialized plumber to come in for this as this sounds too complicated for me.
I already have a specialized plumber coming in to clean my main sewer line (access point is in my main basement). They recommended yearly cleaning. Perhaps I can us rootX for this in the future? (this is a separate topic from the outside downspout network)
I'm planning on having this same plumber look at the downspouts during the same appointment.
I took some other pics and videos for clarity:
discharge exit: https://imgur.com/GqEBXok
the yellow labeled downspout on the right side: https://imgur.com/zrUMKbz
the red labeled downspout on left side: https://imgur.com/2DNXQco
another angle of the red labeled downspout and also shows 2 floor drains, 1 in front of door, and another on the right where the hole is: https://imgur.com/nJEgUJZ
close up of drain in front of door: https://imgur.com/tciv0tA
another downspout to the left of the red labeled downspout: https://imgur.com/2OHZiID
here's a video where I walk from the discharge point across the patio: https://imgur.com/ZWOE3gO
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