Thin Tube Steam/Hot water in Barre VT
Hello all –
So thankful this forum exists.
I've got single piped thin tube radiators I think are currently hot water. Boiler will need replacing. I'm hoping to find someone local to Barre VT that can help me with this sytem.
Any guidance or leads woulds be most welcome. So far I'm beyond the service range of those I've found.
Be well. May fun find you.
Comments
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try @Tom_133 . I think he's in that area. Click on the name to send him a message.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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@CMartinBarreVT , if there is only one pipe connected to the radiator, and an air vent on the other end, it's one-pipe steam.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
@Jamie Hall Woah! You're quick! Thanks. Will follow up with @Tom_133 🙌
@Steamhead I'm pretty sure I don't see vents, but I' looking at pictures at the moment, noy the actual system. So I'm concluding, 70% sure, it's Hot Water.
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Vermont is difficult. If you can't find anyone stop at FW Webb in Barre. (they are a supply house) Ask them to recommend some GOOD contractors
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Post some pics.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting2 -
Well my guess it was Hot Water was wrong. It's clearly steam. It works. Started making heat at the rads 20 minutes after turning it on. And rads got too hot to touch when left on for another 20.
Vents look 'new'. Not all are the same I think.
The no venting the hour I had it running.
Not that I want to break something that's working. .…But I hear so much about how nice 2 pipe steam is…. The day dreamer wonders if rads have to be moved to make room for insulation to be installed anyway…. Is two pipe reasonable at that point?
Can't wait to hear the comments.
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No, Fix what you have. it would cost a fortune to make it two pipe and you will need a new boiler in the future.
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You could make it 2 pipe but it would be a big job, a lot more than just moving some radiators a few inches. it wouldn't be worth it unless you had a good reason to do it.
the near boiler piping looks pretty close although a little odd, it is hard to see, it is probably close enough, especially on 1 pipe.
the biggest issue is the moisture in the basement and the rust on the boiler and what appears to be asbestos in poor condition with something over it.
make sure there aren't corroded and leaking returns out on the wet basement floor.
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Don't think about going to two pipe. One pipe is a little trickier to get everything working well — but it does work perfectly well.
The two key things are venting — particularly mains — and getting all the pipe pitches correct or at least reasonable. From the time frame you are mentioning, I'm thinking that some main venting either isn't adequate — or isn't there at all. For radiators, the name of the game is getting each one heating the space the way you want it — and it's much better to start by slowing spaces which are getting too warm.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Thanks for your comments. Exactly what I needed.
If you guys like the header enough to not touch it, it sounds like rust is my main enemy. Everything seems to be working fine.
Lighting.… 🫣😆
Yeah.... I had a weak headlight with a floppy strap beating me up. I'm not sure who won.
Lesson to all you kids out there.… Check head light elastic BEFORE you go in the abandoned creepy basement with possible low ceiling asbestos and raccoon tracks all over the floor.
I have no ideas how to deal with the moisture/spring stream running through the basement without cutting all the piping pouring a little slab and reinstalling.
.…Which I have zero intention of doing. That's for when the boiler needs to be replaced.
Any moisture rust ideas?
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From the time frame you are mentioning, I'm thinking that some main venting either isn't adequate — or isn't there at all. For radiators, the name of the game is getting each one heating the space the way you want it — and it's much better to start by slowing spaces which are getting too warm.
What symptom are we talking about the 20 mins it took to get heat or me only running it an hour?
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20 minutes to get heat.
i don't think the boiler replacement is far off with all that moisture.
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i don't think the boiler replacement is far off with all that moisture.
Agreed. On my radar.
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20 mins to get heat:
I set a timer and did other check-house-falling-down things. At 20 mins I found rads warm. I didn't check before and didn't look at boiler. I heard boiler fire when thermostat call was changed.
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I think you need a sump pump.
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How will a sump pump take care of raccoons?
😜
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No comment about the cemented hatch? What is that hatch?
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i kind of lumped the inspection door and hanger iron and furnace cement in with the corrosion.
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Mostly looks like normal fiberglass insulation to me. If pipes were never painted they will rust after 100 years. Their exteriors don't mean much relative to state of system or boiler. What if any are the heating issues you are currently having? Can certainly help with your venting and balancing issues if you have any... You can do a leak test (fill till water in boiler comes up the riser) on the boiler to see if it is leaking. If it isn't it may be fine for a while.
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Well I just found out this Peerless is 17 years old. Ouch. That's a painful guage on the water situation down in that basement. 🫣😬
Shouldn't the life of one of these boilers be 30 – 40 years if treated right?
@dabrakeman This is a home purchase situation. It may be running perfectly fine but they do have 3 other heaters in the house. A rennai, a gas ambiance stove and a wood stove. I'm a steam newbie. My grandmother's house has steam but I've never been responsible for it.
My first order of business if this goes through is poly on the floor, a moisture solution for the walls and sump pump in time for spring runoff.
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Painting cast iron makes senst to me.
How often should painting cast iron be done? Is it a 'by eye' thing when they start to look a little baked or rusted?
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you have to fix the moisture from the outside. if it doesn't have drain tile it has to be graded to keep the water away from the foundation. if the water table really is near the basement floor then you need to remove it with a sump pump. make sure it isn't a clogged sewer that is backing up in to the basement too. you are just going to cause more problems if you try to stop it after it is in the walls and floor.
30 years is a somewhat early failure. many can last 60+ years. my guess is some of the hardware seized up and broke from all the moisture.
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you have to fix the moisture from the outside. if it doesn't have drain tile it has to be graded to keep the water away from the foundation.
.…you are just going to cause more problems if you try to stop it after it is in the walls and floor.…
I totally agree and get that. Although: What's a drain tile?
Wow 60 years!
Ok.… two dangerous questions:
Moving THIS Peerless boiler upstairs to a utility closet might be a possibility. (I can already hear the mumbling….) I'm just saying it might be possible in dire circumstances, if needed and no ther alternative was 'flying'. I'm not saying I believe it would make it in usuable conditon up the basement stairs….
Question 1: Would you move it?
Question 2: Favorite steam boilers for living space utility room?
The existing runs on oil from a newish tank standing in the basement. Propane possible. But I sure prefer the BTUs of oil.
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The existing Peerless is 16 years old.
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Oops... I keep forgetting to mention stuff...
And vapor control in the basement would be first priority regardless where the boiler is. Heating all that vapor coming from the basement isn't efficient or on my 'fun list'.
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Drain tile now is perforated plastic pipe that is run around the footing and to a sewer, sump pump, or open drain if grade allow that collects the water that comes from the surface or ground and collects near the foundation and directs it elsewhere. Originally it was short sections of clay pipe laid together with open joints that carried water away from the foundation.
The boiler needs to be below the emitters so the condensate can flow back in to it, you can't put it on the 1st floor(at least not without modifying the system so heavily that installing hot water wouldn't be more cost effective).
You can probably put the boiler on a pedestal in the basement but you need to be careful of some dimensions to the main and with the returns though the mains are usually the main concern with raising the water line. You can solve the main height issue with a drop header if it even is an issue.
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Drain tile: Huh. I've never heard it called that before. Cool little history lesson there. 😁
Now I understand better about steam and pitch and not being able to move the boiler to the first floor. Makes sense.
I thought raising the boiler onto a pedastal would be equal to the trouble of moving the boiler to the first floor. I gotta do something painful to get a vapor barrier under the boiler. Doing everywhere but under the boiler isn't going to save it.
But it sounds like the pedastal is slightly less work and cost. Thanks. Now I know better what kind of hole I'm getting in.
Thanks @mattmia2
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You have to get rid of the water, just sealing it up against the wall/floor is going to cause severe mold problems and cause the masonry to crumble.
Many boilers need to be on a noncombustible base so you can't put plastic under it without protecting it. Many boilers also need the bottom of the boiler sealed to draft properly. Check the manual.
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Yeah. I guess some home owners would think plastic.
Not me. I don't know everything but I've been on the educating side of avoiding unreal damage cause by poor understanding of vapor in new building technologies.
Apparently houses this age were parged with haudralic lime plaster as a vapor 'barrier'. I'm about to learn more about it now from some lime guys and a house preservarionist.
I'm hoping that plaster might allow me to parge the inside–which you can get away with if it's breathable the right way... as opposed to plastic based sealers.
Obviously we want that vapor barrier on the outside of the foundation regardless what it is.
Obviously I don't want to pay to dig out the rubble foundation and seal it. 😁 But it might come to that. 😬🫣
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You have to keep the water from getting there in the first place, you can't seal a rubble foundation, you can't seal a modern foundation. the lime mortar is soft so it moves with the stones, but it is just mostly cosmetic and does a little holding the stones together.
I would suspect the sewer long before I would suspect surface/ground water.
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Thanks @mattmia2
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The comments on handling water in the "basement" (quotes are because it is more or an underground something or other I don't have a word for!) are right on.
I once knew a house which was on a bit of a hillside near a stream in Vermont. In fact, I lived in it. All field stone foundation. In the spring, when groundwater was high, the uphill side of the foundation wall simply was a waterfall. Free running water (not bad quality, either).
There are only two possible ways to handle that.
The first, and much the most expensive, is to dig all around the foundation and install drain tile in a big trench, with adequate capacity to handle the flow (you may need 6 or 8 inch perforated pipe, and the backfill will need to be 1 1/2 inch to 2" graded stone). Assuming the foundation doesn't collapse when you dig the trench, and you can get the pipe to daylight well below the basement level, that works.
The other — and much the cheaper and less invasive — is to figure out how to live with the water. Let it come in one side and arrange for it to drain out the other freely. Place equipment so that it doesn't get actively wet, and arrange for adequate ventilation so you don't have damp problems.
A sump pump to handle small amounts of seepage which doesn't get too high is… ok. Until the power goes out.
Don't even think about trying to put waterproofing on either side of the foundation wall. Not only will it inevitably leak, but there is a good chance that the water pressure will crack or even collapse the wall…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
I have a home built in the late 1800's. Fieldstone foundation and a high water table. When I first moved in we'd get multiple leaks into the basement whenever it rained heavy. The previous homeowners poured a slab over the dirt floor and sloped it to drain to one corner of the basement.
There were no gutters and all of the water from the roof drained right next to the foundation and easily made its way inside. Over the years the soil eroded away and created a negative slope towards the foundation, making the problem even worse.
I fixed the soil grading issue and installed gutters making sure the downspout outlet was about 6ft from the house and draining away from the house.
Big improvement. The only time we ever get a hint of water down there is during extended torrential rainfall when the rain is going sideways and running down one side of the house. Even then it is barely a small puddle.
You can't waterproof a fieldstone foundation. The lime mortar needs to breath and moves with the earth. It will deteriorate rapidly if it is sealed over.
I'd avoid putting heavy plastic down on the dirt floor until the water issue is resolved. You will be sealing in the mud, muck and organic materials and it will get nasty under there.
Solve the water problem first. Make sure all rainfall finds its way as far from the foundation as possible and improve the grading to naturally drain runoff away from the house.
And make sure you don't have any sewer flowing back through the soil. I think one of those "Drain Cleaning" companies can do an inspection for you and locate any potential blockages or cracks. Many repairs can be made without digging up the sewer line.
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And regarding your actual boiler. Your basement in particular is a very unforgiving place. The water, humidity, etc. is going to degrade any appliance down there much quicker than a dry, clean basement. You can see some dry-rot on the floor boards and framing in some of your photos. Proof that basements don't like to be wet.
You essentially have an outdoor boiler that is somewhat protected from outdoor temperature swings.
I have one-pipe steam and my boiler is about 40 years old and isn't showing any signs of slowing down. The fact that you are getting heat in 20 minutes is a great sign! Despite this boilers visual condition it seems like it has more service life left in it.
Take care of the water problems and plug up any above-grade cracks or holes in the foundations to try and seal it up a bit better. Put some crushed stone down over the dirt if it makes you feel better.
Have a pro do a thorough inspection, service the safety mechanisms and replace the air vents on the radiators if needed. You'll be surprised how well it heats!
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someone already mentioned this, but flood the boiler(fill it up to the riser out of the top of the boiler) to make sure it isn't leaking above the water line
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Do this while the boiler is cold. Turn off the service switch. Open the feed valve and hold onto the riser above the boiler; turn off the water when the pipe gets cold.
Let it sit for a few hours and look underneath for leaks.
Drain the boiler back down so the water level is normal in the gauge glass before restarting.—
Bburd0 -
The other — and much the cheaper and less invasive — is to figure out how to live with the water. Let it come in one side and arrange for it to drain out the other freely. Place equipment so that it doesn't get actively wet, and arrange for adequate ventilation so you don't have damp problems.
A sump pump to handle small amounts of seepage which doesn't get too high is… ok. Until the power goes out.
Don't even think about trying to put waterproofing on either side of the foundation wall. Not only will it inevitably leak, but there is a good chance that the water pressure will crack or even collapse the wall…
Yeah. I totally agree. And the elevation and stream you've just described IS this house. The historic preservation specialist called this building likely 'perched' either on a bed of clay or rock.
Interestingly the foundation has several large 'mouse hole' spots in the bottom of the foundation wall to allow water to leave. The Preservationist's recommendation: get those basement windows to open, get the drainage around them working and leave widows open to air out the basement.
I'm inclined to agree. That's the right thing for this house. A sump pump ain't gonna be the rock solid solution here.
That only leaves a 1st floor moisture/insulation issue from the basement side. Not sure how I'm going to handle that yet.
Yep, putting that boiler or any replacement on a pedastal is going to be a piping investment…. But it's the only way to go I think.…
I fixed the soil grading issue and installed gutters making sure the downspout outlet was about 6ft from the house and draining away from the house.
Ooo! Yes! I forgot gutters! 🤦♀️ 😜. Such an excellent idea. This house doesn't have them. So glad you mentioned them. That's do-able. I love how you bolded 'away'. 😁🤣
Do this while the boiler is cold. Turn off the service switch. Open the feed valve and hold onto the riser above the boiler; turn off the water when the pipe gets cold.
Let it sit for a few hours and look underneath for leaks.
Drain the boiler back down so the water level is normal in the gauge glass before restarting.
This is above my pay-grade. I'll have my steam guy show me how to do this. Thanks for mentioning. I 'get' the concept and prefer not to be running loose unsupervised. 😁
Thanks for all these great comments. I'm narrowing down what is, an isn't a good idea!
And yeah. I gotta respect the guy that kept this thing running despite the water issue. I haven't seen it yet but I suspect this house is water-fall crazy in spring like @AdmiralYoda 's before the down spouts.
🙌 Thank you every one! Noe I can have better converstions with the steam guy.
This house is empty while going through the sale process. I'm worried no one is there to make sure it doesn't get low on water.... Not sure of I'm being over protective.…
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