Replacing 30 year old Vesta oil boiler….

HoboGirl

My 30 year old Vesta has been reliable (It is the original one, when I built the house in 1995), but I think it’s time to replace it before it goes bad in the middle of winter. My husband and I are 75 and we would like to stay in this house for at least another 10 years, and I’m also thinking about the future resale of the property. I replaced the roof a couple of years ago for 37K and I replaced my air conditioning seven years ago for 15 K, and replacing the heating system would not only give us a peace of mind, for our remaining time in the house, but it would also be a good selling point.

We also burn wood, in an EPA rated Jotul F500 v3 Oslo, which has reduced my fuel oil consumption from 900 gallons a year down to less than 300 ….as we have tons of dead ash trees here, but my husband may not always be able to keep up with cutting wood in the future.

I’ve had three different contractors out here to give me bids and what’s upsetting is that it seems like you have to really almost have a degree in heating to able to tell whether they’re telling you the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Some mention having the chimney certified prior to installing and some don’t, some say replace the fuel oil lines between the tank and the unit and some say they don’t have to, some mention having to have a permit and some saying well we may not ask for one or whatever…. I mean, geez.

So I’m employing a lot of caveat emptor, and running down every lead that I can for corroborating information…..but it’s exhausting. I do have one contractor that is being straighter with me and more comprehensive, mentioning more things than the other guys….So at this point, I’m giving him more consideration, just based on what I consider to be the honest and straightforward information I’m getting from him. This was also the contractor that I ended up selecting for my AC install back in 2018.

I had one guy talk to me and push pretty hard on a propane replacement, which I have really never thought of considering, but after gathering all the information, including having to put those tanks in a very inauspicious place on the property, that would distract from its appearance, I’m really leaning towards just replacing my fuel oil system.

The model that seems most attractive to me is the Burnham MPO-IQ, with outside reset, as I think I’ll get the best possible efficiency out of that model.

Two out of three of the contractors told me that I should also replace my indirect water tank. I currently have an Amtrol Boilermate 41 gal. One guy is suggesting a Burnham, which has some kind of a stone liner, and the other guy is suggesting a brand that has a stainless steel liner, which has a lifetime warranty, though I don’t recall the brand name at this point.

Two out of the three contractors looked at my oil tank and told me it’s fine. They examined it closely and there’s no signs that it needs to be replaced and the third guy said I should replace it just because it’s 30 years old. We do have a dehumidifier downstairs and my basement is very dry. All the contractors could’ve told me I needed to replace my oil tank and I wouldn’t have known any differently, so I feel that the fact that two out of the three saying that it was safe to keep my oil tank for the foreseeable future was a pretty good bet for me to keep it, for now.

So, here’s my question or, maybe, here’s what I’m thinking about doing and tell me whether you think this is the right way to go.

I do think I’m gonna go with the MPO-IQ, outside reset, and the indirect tank, the stainless steel lined one, because I like the idea of a lifetime warranty. I think that would be a good selling point, too. And I’m going to keep my current fuel oil tank at this point, figuring that if I need to replace that down the road, that’s $5000 I don’t need to spend right now.

So just looking for input, or maybe validation, that I’m making the right choices here. We are retired and it’s gonna likely cost me close to $xxK for the choices I’m making here (haven’t received all the bids yet) not including the fuel oil tank. And, too, my husband was in the military (regular Army in Vietnam, enlisting as a 17 year old, and 20 years in the PA National Guard), so I’m hoping that a military discount could help offset some of the costs here but who knows….

Any input is appreciated.

Jamie Hall

The boiler you are thinking of is a very good boiler. Normally I would say that the first thing one should do is determine the actual heat loss of the house and also the type and amount of radiation to properly size a boiler, and I'm a little concerned that that may be a bigger boiler than you need. But otherwise the general plan you seem to have in mind should work well for you.

That said, particularly with the newer boilers, it is essential that the contractor really knows what he or she is doing. They are not just a matter of dropping it off the truck and attaching a couple of fittings. To get the kind of efficiency and satisfaction of which they are capable, some time and expertise is required — so pick your contractor well (if you tell us where you are, we may know someone…).

I'd avoid a contractor who says you don't need a permit like the plague. I know of very few jurisdictions where you don't, and being willing to suggest slipping by without one does not encourage me…

As to the tank and lines — if the lines don't leak, they're fine, though replacing them is cheap. Your oil company should be able to test the tank for integrity for a nominal price — you really can't tell just by looking (or even tapping!).

The chimney? If you have a wood stove, you also have a chimney sweep I hope. Have him or her look at the chimney and advise you.

HoboGirl

Thank you, Jamie!

Your comment has been very helpful!

Totally agree with you on that permit thing. I was actually stunned that the guy said that to me.

Interestingly, the guy that I trust the most is the only one that actually measured all the rooms. And I’m still waiting for his bid because I think he’s doing the most diligence of all three of them on actually coming up with numbers for me. The house is about 3400 ft.². Three bedrooms 2 1/2 bath with a cat ceiling in the living room, which is where we have the woodstove.

I am in Montgomery County Pennsylvania, the exurbs of Philadelphia

EBEBRATT-Ed

Well from what you have posted and if I understand correctly the contractor you mentioned that is straightforward is the one that did your ac system, so you have a track record with him.

How did he perform on the AC job? All things being = would point me in that direction. The contractor is the most important thing

As far as the indirect tank goes, I am a "run it until it fails". Swapping an indirect is an easy 4–5-hour job. If it was me, I would leave it until it fails. But thats just me.

Going with no HW for a day or so is inconvenient but not the worst thing in the world.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Burnham makes a good boiler, although I have no experience with the one suggested. Make sure you fill out all the warranty paperwork, if any.

You have radiators? Not radiant heating, correct? Whoever you choose, they should follow the recommended piping diagrams in the instructions. Talk to them about this before work is done.

New indirect water heaters often have a lifetime warranty, but usually only to the original homeowner. My favorite indirect is Viessmann.

EdTheHeaterMan

I like the fact that you have a good contractor that has already completed work for you in the past and you were satisfied enough to call them back again. I might call and ask them if they are an Energy Kinetics dealer. Although Burnham makes a good product, the American Made EK products use some energy saving technology that has proven to lower operating costs. The EK boilers can also provide domestic hot water at a lower cost than a propane or electric water heater.

HoboGirl

Thanks Ed, one of the other contractors was recommending the Energy Kinetics EK1T Ascent, and I really kind of liked it, but it doesn’t have an indirect tank. It has a heat exchanger to heat the hot water.

And a couple of the other contractors that were here mentioned that with hard water, which we have (though we do have a water softener and a sulfur filter) those heat exchangers can get quickly blocked up, even with a little bit of sand or something…. so that’s why we ruled out the Ascent…. Plus, it is a steel stove, not a cast-iron one.

HoboGirl

Alan, thanks so much for your input. We do have baseboard radiators, not the old fashioned cast ones. The house was built in 1995 and everything in the house is circa 1995.

I will research Viesmann, so thanks for that guidance. He never did mention a brand name or if he did I was too overwhelmed with all the information to have jotted it down.

I’m pretty much decided to stick with the fuel oil and that’s why I like the MPO-IQ.

I didn’t like how the guy pushed the propane stove so hard, and I think he had kind of a deal going with the propane provider. Always suspicious about those things The more they try to push the more reluctant I get and I’m not even willing to consider iit.

What I don’t like about the whole propane thing is, you know, the propane dealers that I’ve dealt with or that I’ve even talked to seem like slippery snake oil salesmen….The whole idea of ‘renting’ the tanks, and ‘free’ installation IF I buy XX number of gallons of propane per year…and if they put the tank underground, you know, I feel like I’m kind of stuck with them. With fuel oil I can switch who I get my oil from every year, if someone price is better.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@HoboGirl

What you said about propane is true and oil is probably cheaper so this may be a moot point. But you can purchase a propane tank and have an excavating contractor put it in the ground and have a plumber/gasfitter hook it up.

The advantage is then you can by propane from anyone you want.

hot_rod

not much difference between oil and LP as far as dealers “games”

lp like oil used to be all mom and pop shops . Most lp dealers are consolidated now.

If you own your lp tank you can buy from any dealer, anytime.

Pre buys in the fall are usually the least expensive option, there are many different plans to buy early

I had two 500 gallon and a 300 gallon at my place and could generally make it through a heating season

You need to look at the cost of oil and LP over a 20 year period. The EIA site has that, compare lp at 87-90 efficiency vs oil at 87 or less depending on cycles. With gin tube the mod con could condense oart if the season and get 90%+ efficiency

Lp can run other appliances.

I would not be concerned with HX plugging, all the mod con combis use small plate HX. Descaling if service valves are installed is a 20 minute job.

Oil burners should have yearly service also, so the HX could be on a yearly descale program

That same scale coats the coils in an indirect, by the way.

https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

EdTheHeaterMan

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1860009#Comment_1860009

I wonder if you looked at the System 2000? I believe the Ascent is their lower priced offering in order to compete with the lower cost cast iron boilers with tankless coils. You can get a lower price on a Burnham with a tankless coil for less than the MPO with an indirect. The difference is the control system does not offer the thermal purge features that EK products are known for. That thermal purge along with the much lower water content of the steel boiler, a more efficient design that can not be matched by a cast iron boiler, will end up with the lowest operating cost. And a big plus is that the EK president and some of their tech support frequent this site and offer assistance over and above the other boiler manufacturers. @Roger might even let you know more reasons you might take a second look at EK.

Don't rule out Steel boilers There have been many steel boiler manufacturers that have equipment that have lasted over 50 years on a regular basis, in both commercial and residential situations. I have done maintenance on thousands of different boilers in my 40+ years and can safely say that the EK boilers are one of the easiest boilers to open up for maintenance. And when I did open them up, There was very little that needed to be cleaned.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Nothing wrong with steel boilers at all. Especially on HW

Roger

Thank you for your thoughtful comments, @EdTheHeaterMan , we definitely make a 30+ year boiler that will likely pay for itself in savings if @HoboGirl moves away from burning ash trees in the future. @HoboGirl , you may want to ask your Energy Kinetics dealer for a quote on System 2000 for higher savings with our indirect tank (it has our Sealix coating to operate much better in hard water applications, but also use our scale stopper if you don’t have a water softener in hard water applications). Please PM me or reach out to our customer service team if you’d like more personalized assistance. Thank you for considering Energy Kinetics boilers to reliably heat your home for the next 10+ years!

Best,

Roger

HoboGirl

Regarding the comment on scale coating the coils in an indirect, I’ve had my Amtrol Boilermate for 30 years, and had ZERO problems or issues with it. ZERO.

My question is, should I replace it just because it’s 30 years old? I’ve included some pictures below.

I was also told that I could tell if there were problems within the tank by touching it. That the top and bottom of the external tank should feel the same temperature, and it is cool to the touch everywhere on it.

I have settled on the MPO-IQ 147TB (with outdoor reset) as a replacement for my Vesta….. and I did get two bids from my preferred contractor (the only one that actually measured the rooms/baseboard radiators to see what kind of heat loss I have in the house, and fully disclosed about permitting AND chimney certification), one bid with and one without the replacement for the indirect tank (a Triangle Tube Smart 316 40 gallon) so am wondering if I have to replace the indirect at this point, or if I could turf that expense to a couple of years hence, which would be great for spreading out the expense, since I’m retired and money doesn’t grow on trees?

Any input would be appreciated.

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HoboGirl

One other question I have is:

Is it worth purchasing a 5 yr extended warranty on the new boiler for $499 which would give me an additional four years. If the boiler is new you’re not gonna really need anything much in the first five years anyway are you?

Would it be throwing away money?

There’s a limited lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger, but the other parts and labor is just for one year otherwise.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Ask the contractor to quote on the indirect as a separate item. Cry on his shoulder and tell him money is tight and you want to replace the indirect but maybe do it in a year or 3. You shouldn't need anything for the boiler in the first few years. If it was me I would take my chances.

Unless there is something obvious with the indirect I would run it as is.

In this day and age new isn't always better unfortunately. Since you probably have decent water quality it could last a while.

HoboGirl

Ed,

Thanks…. that’s the direction I’m leaning right now is to just do the bid that doesn’t include the indirect. I can always do that later.

And I’m with you on thinking I’ll just take my chances and not get the extended warranty….

I need a new fridge and that extra $500 will help in that department… it’s 30 years old too!!