Axeman-Anderson oil fired boiler vs. Burnham oil fired

jaydvid

Hi Everyone, my oil fired Axeman-Anderson Olympia 1 boiler recently failed. The technicain who came to look at it was unable to get it running. It tries to start but after a couple of tries goes into Hard Lockout. I clean it and change the oil filter at the oil tank yearly and the vessel is not leaking at all. The outside is rusty but that's to be expected of a furnace that's at least 34 yrars old. The tech who couldn't get the system running suggested replacing it. I had someone else give me a second opinion and he suggested replacing it with a Burnham oil fired boiler. Does anyone have an opinion on Burnham vs. Axeman Anderson. I know that the Axeman-Anderson is steel rather than cast iron but to me that doesn't seem to make a big difference.

Very interested in your opinions.

Thank you.

Jamie Hall

Much more to the point — what is the make and, if possible, model of the burner and control assembly? It is the burner which isn't firing — not the boiler; the boiler is jut a big hunk of iron.

Your problem isn't the boiler, it's the burner — and we may be able to help with that.

EdTheHeaterMan

The oil burner is the part that is not operating. You may just need a simple part like a ignition electrode assembly, or perhaps the burner fan is so clogged with household lint and pet dander that the air adjustments can no longer be adjusted for proper combustion. 34 years ago, oil burners were pretty much the same ones that are available today. Carlin, Beckett, Wayne, and some others have not changed that much in the last 30+ years. the chassis is still the same, they just add more or better parts to that same burner housing. If you can determine the problem with the burner, you may not need to replace the boiler.

But replacement parts will not cost as much as a new boiler, so maybe someone just wants the big sale. What happens if you get that new Burnham boiler only to find out that the oil line from the tank is plugged. That new boiler will have the same problem as the old one. New and old burners can not operate if the fuel line is plugged. You need to find another service technician. I M H O

Steamhead

@jaydvid , @Jamie Hall and @EdTheHeaterMan are right. There's no reason to replace that boiler. You just need a service company worthy of the name.

That boiler is efficient enough that it's well worth repairing. For those not familiar, here is the brochure (not the manual, as the link would have us think). A-A's site is down at the moment:

https://inspectapedia.com/heat/Axeman-Anderson-Olympia-Boiler-Manual.pdf

Where are you located? We might know someone who can help.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The burner and boiler are not the problem. The problem is the "technician"

First words out of their mouth is "you need a new boiler"

jaydvid

Thank you all for your comments, suggestions and the link to the manual. They are much appreciated. The AA site has been down for a few weeks. The burner is a Beckett probably the original and the model of the boiler is an Olympia 1 OL19.

The igniter was replaced back in December. After that it ran fine all winter until the hard lockout in April.

When the first technician came to look at the boiler it was running at 5-6000 ohms before shutting down. He replaced the electrodes, the nozzle, cleaned the filter on the burner, checked the emissions, which were clean, and checked other settings on the burner. After spending 2+ hours on it, it was still running at 5000 ohms and he offered to replace the whole burner assemble for $$$$ without any guarantee it would fix the issue. I know the oil line is clear because when it first failed I blew the line out from the tank to the burner with an air compressor hoping that would resolve the hard lockout code.

I called Axeman-Anderson and they said they could send me the parts they thought needed replacing for $50. I'm already into this repair for $$$$ so I'm hesitant to spend too much more that could go towards a new boiler.

Do any of you know of any technicians in the RI area who work on Axeman Anderson oil boilers?

EdTheHeaterMan

The 5000 ohms is a problem. You need to be below 1600 ohms for the older primary controls (3 wire gray box) and the newer electronic controls can sense a flame at over 2000 ohms with some adjusting.

My thought is that the flame sensor eye (cad cell eye) needs to be repositioned to "See" the flame better. sometimes that is just a matter of repositioning the cad cell holder to point it at the flame. Sometimes the holes that allow the light from the flame is blocked by something that is easily adjusted. The flame signal form the flame to the cad cell eye just needs to be repositioned, or the wires may be compromised or the actual eye needs to be replaced.

The normal stuff that usually solves the problem has already been done, now you need to look at the Cad Cell, the Cad Cell holder and the wires that connect he cad cell to the primary control.

Can you open the ignition transformer cover and take a picture of the Cad Cell Eye location and what it looks like inside the combustion air tube?

leonz

You don't need a new boiler, you need a new oil company. If your oil company suburban propain?, if so get rid of them, I can personally vouch for thier poor service.

You will be spending money on a new boiler that you do not need. The Axeman family still runs their company and they are very good business people with a strong reputation for quality work, coal stoker boilers, oil boilers and parts.

Try the replacement part and find a new oil company with good burner techs.

EdTheHeaterMan

@jaydvid

Can you take some pictures of the inside of the oil burner with the transformer/cover open? See this illustration for the camera positions

Do not remove the nozzle assembly from the burner (as shown in the lower left). I want to see what the nozzle assembly looks like when you take a photo from that angle. Also the photo of the eye will help to see what I need to look at. Make sure there is enough light to show all the details.

RascalOrnery

For what it's worth, my axeman boiler was built in 1957. Still running, I've met Pete Axeman at the factory and was very impressed with their whole operation. They seem to be known for both quality design and longevity. Every time I've talked to them on the phone they've diagnosed my problem correctly.

Robert_H

What town do you live in? I'm in CT and will be going to providence tomorrow afternoon for a social event. Maybe I can stop by and take a look. Like everyone has said, you don't need a new boiler or more than likely a new burner. For some reason your cad cell is not seeing a good flame. could be the flame, the cad cell, the burner could just be dirty…

Your dealing with a company that doesn't train their techs properly and the techs are afraid to ask for help.

I sent you a PM,

jaydvid

Hi all thanks again for your input. Robert, sorry I didn't get back to this untill after you were in Providence. I have included several pictures which I hope will shed some light on the problem. Funny thing about the cad eye. After the first tech replaced all of the parts and the boiler was still running at 5-6000 ohms we talked about the posibility that the cad eye could be bad. When he replaced it with a new one the furnace wouldn't even fire so he put the old one back in.

EdTheHeaterMan

OK from what I can see, the Eye should be able to see the flame. Just double check that the holes in the static disk plate on the nozzle assembly are not partially blocked by something like lint, dust, or carbon. Also check the hole at the end of the air tube to be sure that is also clear.

There must be a clear line of sight from the Eye location to the Flame in the combustion chamber. If you still get over 4000 ohms (when the wires are not connected to the F F on the primary control) then you may need a replacement Cad Cell Eye. Click to see link to replacement Cad Cell Eye.

EdTheHeaterMan

Follow up:

from your photographs I can see there is some household dust, lint, and/or animal dander inside your burner that may have built up over years of operation. So there is a possibility that the openings illustrated above may be partially blocked. Also there is the possibility that the Eye is defective. They do go bad from time to time. If you can find a local oil burner parts supplier, like RE Michel or Johnstone Supply, they may sell One Eye only. SupplyHouse.com only sells a 5 pack for about $49.00, so the cad cell complete with harness and wire is less expensive, if you go that route.

You must operate the burner with the flame on, then jump the F F terminals to keep the burner operating during the test. then check Ohms from the two disconnected yellow wires. that is the only way to get the Ohms reading for signal strength. I find that a 500 Ohms reading is common with a new Cad Cell. anything lower that 1200 is acceptable. Anything over 1600 is usually interpreted by the primary control as no flame.

You need to get a good flame signal. A new boiler is a very costly fix for the problem. Especially if all you need is little cleaning, or a $16.00 part to get the heat running.

Steamhead

Might be the socket for the CAD cell too- I've seen them go bad.

EBEBRATT-Ed

In the first picture it looks like a burn mark on the cad cell wire. Maybe it got pinched between the transformer and the electrode.

Your technician is an idiot.

How does replacing electrodes improve a cad cell reading? It doesn't. Nozzle ….maybe.

Could be the burner end cone is damaged although if he got a good combustion test probably not.

How do you spend 2 hours on a burner knowing the cad cell reading is high and not get anywhere?

HVACNUT

Can we see the rest of the boiler?

mattmia2

(granted all of you have had something that should take 15 minutes take 4 hours)

leonz

Your right Matt,

I digress because the following is not plumbing related; I have had drive and driven belt replacements on 2 stage snow blowers that have taken four hours in the field when the single stage snow throwers I had from 1968 until 1995 took 30 minutes because the engines were the simple horizontal crank engines that used simple V belt tension adjustments using acme worms.

jaydvid

Thank you all again for your comments and suggestions. The first thing I tried was blowing out the space under the igniter with compressed air and cleaning the exisitng CAD cell. That seemed to help. The boiler ran for the remainder of the day and overnight but was still running around 4800 ohms. I thought that if cleaning the CAD cell helped, even just a little, that I would try a new one. I found a reasonably priced one on Amazon and installed it. It seemed to make a difference. The boiler ran at around 4000 ohms but went into hard lockout after about 10 minutes. It recycled and tried to start again but went to hard lockout. How sensitive is the the CAD cell to positioning. Does it have to be right on the hole in order to get an acceptable ohm level? Since the two different CAD Cells provide different results I was thinking that maybe the Honeywell controller board has failed. Also, Ed mentioned the black mark on the CAD Cell wire. Could a crimped wire cause higher resistence therefore affecting the reading on the controller? Ican'tunderstand why it runs, albeit not great, with the old CAD cell but fails with the new one. I know the unit is getting a good flow of oil because the technician showed me the flow after he cleaned the filter attached to the burner. As always, any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

mattmia2

you're bypassing the cds cell terminals just for the test and reading the resistance of the cell with an ohmmeter, right?

HVACNUT

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1855727#Comment_1855727

Can we see the rest of the boiler?

EdTheHeaterMan

The oil flow has nothing to do with the flame sensing circuit. So good oil flow from the pump will not be part of diagnosing the flame failure problem as long as there is a steady flame in the combustion chamber.

Think of the flame sensing circuit as a basic circuit that uses the Cadmium Sulfide Cell (Cad Cell) as the on-off switch.  When the light from the flame is exposed to the cadmium sulfide, the resistance to electricity changes and allows the electric current to flow.  You can measure this change in resistance with an ohm meter.  This change in electrical resistance opens the circuit to the safety switch.  With the safety switch activation circuit turned off, the control will not fail on manual reset. The burner continues to operate.  

If the cadmium sulfide does not get enough light, then the safety circuit will stay turned on and the safety switch will trip open and stop the burner from operating.  So with information you can clearly understand that the more light the Cad Cell Eye can “see”  The less chance there is of a flame failure lockout.

This Cad Cell is not an on off switch but changes in increments based on the amount of light the Eye can “see”.  On the older 3 wire protecto-relays the point at which the control must get the signal is 1700 ohms or less. On those analogue controls the safetiming is determined by the amount of time a small resistance heater takes to bend a piece of bi-metal to cause a set of contacts to open.  If there is full power for 45 seconds the contacts will trip open and must be manually reset.  If however the electric current only gets sent for a split second several times a minute the safety heater will not get as hot as fast.  If the call for heat is over before the safety heater gets hot enough to trip the contacts open, then that heater can cool off and start over with the next call for heat.   If the call for heat is longer, then all those split seconds electrical connections add up to heat up the safety heater, then it could trip after operating for 30 minutes or so.   I have experienced just that scenario on more than one occasion when the burner operates properly while you are there, but fails as some other time late at night when no one is looking at it.   I was taught to look at the ohm reading when I came across that problem.  

Here is how I was taught to measure OHMs for the flame signal on a Cad Cell Eye.

Check Oil Primary Relay 

NOTE: You will need an insulated jumper wire with both ends stripped.  

1. Disconnect cad cell leads from F-F or F1-F2 terminals. 
2. Reset the safety switch and set the thermostat to call for heat. 
3. Burner should start. Within the safety switch timing, use insulated wire to jumper F-F or F1-F2 terminals. 
4. Burner should continue to run.  
5. With the Cad Cell wires not connected to the control. Measure the Ohm’s resistance between the two yellow wires.
   1. The measurement should be below 1700 Ohms resistance for the flame signal to be detected by the control
   2. If the measurement is above 1700 Ohms, clean the cad cell with a soft cloth and perform the test again.
   3. If the measurement is above 1700 Ohms then try to reposition the cad cell to get more light exposure from the flame
   4. If the measurement is above 1700 replace the cad cell eye
   5. If the measurement is above 1700 replace the complete cad cell wiring harness 
   6. If the measurement is below 1200, and the control is still shutting down by the safety switch, then the control is defective.  
6. After the safety switch timing, remove the jumper. Burner should shut down in the safety switch timing.  If the operation is not as described, replace the oil primary control.

On the left is how to connect the meter.

On the righe is how to adjust the eye for a better flame signal