One Pipe system issue

bohair

This one pipe system currently has a vacuum break and air vent located about 12” above the gate valve on the return, and the goes into a f&t trap with air vent as the last picture shows we then go into the receiver and introduce the air vent again no Hartford loop. Any input on what’s wrong here?

mattmia2

I have many questions….

bohair

bohair

I’ve determined the vacuum break and end of line main vent need removed and the trap at the “ receiver” needs installed in place where the current vent and vacuum break is to continue with the gilford loop, or remove the trap and vacuum break size the right air vent and bring the Hartford loop back. This is my first time with single pipe system and looking for any direction or option I’m not aware of.

109A_5

Well is there something wrong here ?

What are you actually trying to fix ?

Where is the water coming from ?

Does it work ?

I believe this is the functional equivalent of the Hartford loop.

Jamie Hall

I wonder if there was a way to make it more complicated…

To begin with, why is there a receiver at all? And what controls the pump from the receiver to the boiler, since I take it there is one?

If the vent is anything other than a Hoffman 76, you shouldn't need the breaker at all — and if it is a 76, it's the wrong vent for a one pipe system.

I guess I'm confused…

109A_5

If it was a Weil-McLain, it may actually be installed per the manual. However I think it is a Utica and (so far) I can't find comparable recommendations in a Utica I/O manual.

bohair

as of now everyone with experience has they same response it seems. Why make it so complicated, it seems to over fill the receiver in colder temps, it’s been installed like this for 3 years and from what I’m being told by the post master it’s been a head ache since it’s been put in. The water from city is also shared in the receiver with its own mechanical float. The vent is a 15 and vacuum is 62 trap is FT air vent Armstrong 15B. I wanna go back with Hartford loop and just use the tank for low water.

bohair

Utica and I have talked and the Lwco McDonnell miller acts as feed pump/primary lwco, just seems from all my research that the current set up will be problematic and not as this was designed in 1930.

mattmia2

it is possible that the amount of steam and condensate in the system makes the water level in the boiler too low when it reaches equilibrium. the original boiler would have held a lot more water. if yo have emitters below the boiler yo need some way to lift the condensate although that doesn't look like the case here since i only see a single return up high which seems likely to be incorrect unless there really is only one main and no drips. what is more likely is someone added the condensate tank trying to solve some problem that it doesn't solve.

bohair

My main question is how this trap with air vent needs a vacuum break and air vent before it located 4’ on the top of the end of line? Currently the trap stays open and floods the recover

bohair

IMG_1193.png

I have a loop that runs the perimeter of the basement 1 single pipe, serving basement and 1st floor, all radiators in basement are on the ceiling and 1 floor look like this.

Jamie Hall

The trap stays open and floods the receiver". Um… well… where does the trap get all that water from?

I'll agree that if the receiver tank — which is probably not needed — is vented to the atmosphere then the F&T from the steam main extension is needed, since that steam main extension is at boiler pressure, not atmospheric. And at the risk of antagonising some folks, this is one occasion when the clear distinction between a dry return and a steam main extension is absolutely mandatory.

Are you somewhere where we can find a real steam guy to come and take a look at that system? There are enough parts there which don't belong and are piped oddly that it really needs someone to stand there and figure out what the heck is going on…

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1850365#Comment_1850365

So much so that i thought it was a vapor system that someone butchered until i looked closely.

mattmia2

the steam traps job is to trap steam. it keeps steam from going in to the tank. the tank is flooding for some other reason, probably because of the water that is being thrown or pushed out of the boiler or the condensate that is being retained somewhere that someone installed the tank instead of fixing.

the water gets thrown or pushed out of the boiler or retained, this causes the water level to be low in the boiler. the pump feeds the boiler. this causes the tank to be low so the valve on the tank adds water to the tank. after the boiler stops the water comes back from wherever it was retained and floods the tank.

most likely you need to figure out the issue the tank was erroneously installed to solve.

how stable is the water level in the boiler when it is steaming?

109A_5

" Why make it so complicated, it seems to over fill the receiver in colder temps, "

It is complicated, since it may need to be like described in the Weil-McLain document posted above, but if you don't do the due diligence you are guessing and it may not need to be as complicated.

Also what actually determines the city water contribution level, all I see is a pressure regulator ? I would set that level as low as possible, but keep the pump safe. A time delay may help too.

It overflows only when cold out since there is more water / steam out in the system so the make up water system thinks there is a low water event and adds water to the system, then when the call stops all the water comes back and over flows the tank.

You need enough water to fill the radiation when cold out and manage it properly so there is no low water event during normal steaming and does not overflow anything when the call for heat ends.

mattmia2

that header is wrong too, it will pull the sections of the boiler apart over time, it needs some threaded swing joints or some sort of other give to allow the header and the boiler to expand and contract at different rates.

i'm not sure if the flanges are enough.

Steamhead

This is a Utica J-series boiler. It's currently in version JF, and the manual is here:

https://uticaboilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/240013851-Generic-Comm-Steam-Water-IOM-Rev-B.pdf

mattmia2

I see a pipe with a pressure reducing valve in to the condensate tank but I don't see a valve on that pipe or anything that looks like a float switch on the tank or wiring coming from the tank. what controls the makeup water?

bohair

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1850391#Comment_1850391

There is a ball float inside the receiver/condensate tank that opens a mechanical valve when water level gets low and put city water in,

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1850406#Comment_1850406

make sure that isn't leaking when it is off.

a one pipe steam system that isn't leaking should require a few gallons of makeup water or less a month.

adding makeup water and dumping it constantly like is currently happening is going to kill the boiler.

you could try turning off the makeup water and watching the level in the tank and the boiler and see what happens.