Commercial Dishwasher for a Church
The church I attend has a 50+ year old Hobart dishwasher AM9T2. The local Hobart service company will not work on it because of its age. I have been troubleshooting what I can since 2009, so the Trustees can replace it in an orderly manner.
They have failed, primarily because I have been successful in dealing with each problem.
The church used to use the dishwasher frequently, but that has changed and it is used less than 6 times a year.
This past week, at a trustees meeting one of the people on the committee for dinners made the bold, but proper, statement that she would not do another dinner unless there is a new dishwasher. Good for her!
Troubles primarily are a result of scale buildup inside the booster heater effectively reducing the T/P valve setpoint, such that the valve actuates and spills water on the floor. When the valve was removed years ago, the temperature sensor could not move. The sensor in a new valve could, so I "assume" the buildup reduced the amount of thermal expansion resulting in lowering the setpoint.
Recently that happened again so I replaced the valve only to have it actuate during another dinner less than a week later. We temporarily reduced the booster heater thermostat setting so the valve wouldn't actuate and monitored the hot rinse temperature to be safe. While doing that I noticed the hot rinse flow rate was slow because the hot water in the heater several feet away never made it to the dishwasher during the time span for the hot rinse.
Years ago the flow rate had reduced and I was able to restore it by disconnecting the heater and using a copper wire to ream the openings in the inlet tube for the incoming water. It solved the flow problem.
So, now the trustees are looking to have a replacement installed by some time in May.
Does anyone have any suggestions on a replacement brand?
Comments
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I am guessing that a replacement booster is an expensive item. If that is the case and this dish washer is only used about 6 times a year, why not just use disposable paper products. Use and throw away. That is what they did at our church since they could not justify the expense.
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Hobart kind of invented them or bought the company that did and is the standard. I suspect you will be disappointed with whatever you replace it with. Why not just descale it with acid and put a scale treatment cartridge on the inlet? Any commercial appliance not used for several months is going to have problems.
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It's been a tossup for the reasons you mention. One option is to eliminate it and convert the space into a large washing station. The arrangement already has a deep sink for removing most of anything on the dishes, so the water and drain connections are available.
The other is there has been a tremendous amount of work to update/upgrade the overall facility including other rooms, heating system, the kitchen and the dinosaur in the kitchen seems out of place. Besides, I have not had to work on any of the electrical equipment, only the hot water flow path (i.e., heater, regulator, hot rinse solenoid valve, backflow preventer), all plumbing work.
In these days, the people doing the dinners are aging, many early baby boomers like me and older. Younger people just aren't available/interested…that's reality.
Can you recommend a scale treatment cartridge? I am preparing an end-of-life handout to help guide them.
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If it were me, I would think about having a pair of large capacity home dishwashers like the Whirlpool ECO series before investing in a single commercial dishwasher. These units are 24 inches wide and have a three rack system for dishes, pots and utensils. They are on sale at Lowes for $649.00
If church is using commercial soap and sanitizers in bulk with an autofill system then I guess you could look at the Eurodib/Lamber commercial dishwasher at Lowes they are currently $3,899.00 with a $49.00 rebate. According to their literature, this single rack dishwasher will wash thirty racks per hour.
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Good comment. I found a web site that provided advice on what type to use for different applications. One choice is a commercial undercounter machine. It was mentioned at the trustees meeting and a trustee mentioned that a lot (really, all) of the dishwashers are "old" and lifting a rack would be a problem for them.
But I will pass it on.
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Our church has a commercial dishwasher that we have given up on (we now wash dishes by hand). We have been led to believe that a home-type dishwasher may be unapproved - perhaps because the wash temperature is not high enough? Comments?
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I have used descaler on old Hobart units and some times it can cause more damage. If you decide to use it consider it as a last resort before the replacement.
The idea that @leonz mentions above is probably the way to go. Replacing that old commercial unit, the Whirlpool ECO should be fine. Especially the way you are intending to use it. And you won't need to have anyone picking up racks.
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Here they want 160*. Residential won’t cut it.
even a residential water heater is not allowed in commercial buildings.0 -
Not only sanitation but there is a world of difference between the effectiveness of cleaning and cycle time of a commercial vs residential dishwasher.
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Im pretty sure with a 120 deg water supply a 140 deg. temp will work. What temp. above 140 "is" required?
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here 160* minimum for commercial.
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The dishwasher we have has an approximately one minute cycle, about 48 seconds wash around 140F and 12 seconds hot rinse at 180F minimum. Any residential dishwasher can't come close.
Assume a 200 person dinner and a rack capability of 8 rows of 2 plates means 200/16 = 12.5, say 13 cycles just for plates, then add in other dishware for small plates, cups, glasses and silverware and you have at least triple . That's around 40 cycles, but with dinners having slow starts and finishes, there is a concentration in the middle with potential difficulty keeping up, even with enough total dishware and silverware. That also does not include trays when they are used with 8 in a rack, adding another 200/8 = 25 cycles. These numbers don't seem awful, but managing the space for all that material, both incoming/prepping and drying adds up.
I have no idea if a residential dishwasher could handle a water supply temperature of 180F without prematurely affecting components.
Two dishwashers would help a lot, but the sanitary code seems to prohibit it. I did notice there are low temperature dishwashers that deal with sanitation with chemicals, but there are comments about the taste of food when those dishwashers are used.
Keep the dialogue coming.
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I would offer my girlfriend as a dishwasher but I think the commute is a little too far.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@SteamingatMohawk The sanitary code prohibits? I have never heard of that one. At least not in this context. You should be allowed to use the amount of dishwashing machines that you need. As long as they are installed according to building code, the manufacturers suggestions and your areas department of public health or equivalent entity.
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The state and local health codes will require the dishes be sanitized by some sort of certified process in most jurisdictions. household dishwashers won't have that certification. i suppose you could dip them in a sanitizing solution after you take them out of the household dishwasher.
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@Intplm You are correct, I did not clearly state what I meant. I should have said the sanitary code requires certain attributes, which a residential dishwasher may not have. Thanks for keeping me accurate.
As far as the building and sanitary codes are concerned, I looked into the building code and I only found a statement that the dishwasher must meet the sanitary code. The building code seemed to be more interested in the physical facility, including fire protection, like having a suppression system for any stoves/ovens.
As this subject bangs around in my head, I tend to conclude the dishwasher could be "salvaged" (if descaling the heater doesn't work) is to replace the heater for a few $K. I informed the trustees that I was going to descale the heater and already had built and tested a homemade setup that is essentially the same as the tankless water heater descaling kits that are available for a couple hundred $$. My only expense is for two 4 foot clear tubing hoses with hose connections and a hose bib and fittings on the heater outlet. I did not yet buy the Rydlyme recommended by Hatco for the descaling. The trustees told me not to do it.
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It is somewhat interesting that hand washing doesn't have any requirements like the hot rinse or chemical treatment for the low temperature dishwashers. But we all eat food without those requirements at home and who know where else…
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You're not feeding 100's of people in your home. If someone gets a contagious disease it can be traced. Not so easy in a Place of Public Assembly.
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This heater, single or 3 phase?
There are several after-market booster heaters available.
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I apologize for not mentioning this in my initial response but the Lamber organization has a large brood herd of high capacity dish washing systems available for dish washing use. The Lamber Company has reseller representatives in the United States.
Red wine vinegar has a high natural acid content and it probably would aid you in cleaning the new dishwasher in the future.
https.//www.lamber.it
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Here's a thought. If you do plan to replace the dishwasher. Be sure that it meets the National Science Foundation (NSF) certifications. This will help in the distinction between a residential and or a commercially certified appliance and wether or not it applies to and fits your needs.
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I wonder if Hobart really no longer supports it or if the repair company is just trying to sell you something. You could get a used dishwasher that is newer, commercial restaurant equipment is designed to be used and repaired for decades where home appliances have become mostly disposable.
In this case NSF stands for national sanitation foundation. They have many standards. The standard that residential equipment is certified under is probably not the same standard as commercial equipment.
Hand washing does require sanitizing, that is what the 3 compartment sink is all about, the first compartment is wash, 2nd rinse, 3rd sanitize, unless co-op type kitchens fall under a looser standard than commercial restaurants.
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FWIW, our church has a double sink set up, with a separate sanitizer.
We scrape, wash and rinse the dishes, load them into the Hobart style racks, then send them into the sanitizer (with a scoop of powdered disinfectant).
The unit runs at 160 degrees, and cycle time is 8- 10 minutes.
Local health official is satisfied.
Peter
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Hobart
Still supports there older equipment. That appears to be a small unit.
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The model heater is still available. I assume it would be a direct replacement. I have been trading emails with Hatco.
I agree with the comment about the company not wanting to work on it. One of my concerns with working on it is that while doing repair work, there a concern about making things worse. The water lines feeding the dishwasher have some pretty small compression fittings.
I did not know about the three stage requirement.
As I messed around with the most current situation, I finally realized I was dealing with the symptoms and not the cause. I was all set to clean the heater, now that I figured out how to route the water without sending it into the dishwasher itself. But the trustees said not to do it. Also, if it was allowed and didn't work, we could just replace the heater, the only ?? is what collateral damage could be done if the cleaning created other problem(s).
Even then, the kitchen would still have a 50+ year old machine with people older than it operating it.
I have some personal pet phrases…"Ten years from now, what would have been the right answer?" and "Could you be sorry if you did? and Could you be sorry if you didn't?"
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There was a lot less of a make it cheaper push 50 years ago. Commercial equipment is designed to do dozens of loads a day for decades. Corrosion and stuff that can rot will be what might fail. Even renewing all that stuff is likely less expensive than a new machine but you need to fond people that know how to work on it and won't damage things because they don't know how it works.
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