Is my plumbing wrong

delcrossv

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1849355#Comment_1849355

If it does have reverse pitch, a loop seal that short still won't work. And the dry return would have to be below the main for it to act as a drip.

As is, with those pressuretrol settings, it's just a short circuit between the main and dry return.

I'll bet this was installed as a "fix" for trap 1, instead of actually fixing the trap.

109A_5

That loop seal would work fine on my system (2" WC max) except it looks like it would partially flood the larger pipe. And if there is no differential pressure if the other trap is stuck open the loop seal will fill up since there is no differential pressure to push the condensate out.

Also the pressuretrol does not force the pressure to go to the setting. If the boiler is properly sized the pressuretrol may never trip, even when set at a minimum. With this thread I don't think the boiler size and the EDR was ever determined, so who knows.

And yes, that system looks like a whole series of patches to attempt to fix some dysfunction without a real good plan.

delcrossv

If there's no differential pressure between the main and dry return, nothing will work anyway. 😉

Agreed, at very low pressure, loop seals can be shorter, but I don't think that's what we're seeing here.

The air vents on the rads indicates previous attempts to make the system work without understanding what they're dealing with.

It seems it's sorta working as some kind of 2 pipe air vent setup. Might be easiest to complete going in that direction and drip all the rad returns. 🤔

j1smi48

Here is a tour of the steam main in question.

https://youtu.be/yYuJZVXl1Ys?si=fn8zQN0bAhAQ1B9e

j1smi48

Here is a video of my ptrols

https://youtu.be/iB8HZKsJJxU?si=3XbkaCZCGD2AwIPQ

109A_5

As much as the videos did help understand the system layout, you did not point out where the radiators that do not heat are connected into the system.

delcrossv

Agreed, if you could point those out.

Are they on the branch with the loop seal?

The videos were very helpful.

109A_5

As you probably understand from past comments your system appears to have multiple issues. Sadly to add to that list (per the video) the Copper pipe that you call a Main is significantly smaller than the normal sized Main it connects to. The 'Copper Main' pipe size that feeds 4 ? radiators may be insufficient for that load, also since it is not insulated that is not helping any, since that will create more condensate in the main to deal with and less steam getting to the radiators.

Also I would verify the pipe pitch is correct so the condensate drains correctly and does not restrict the steam path or an air venting path.

With the amount of staining on the wall, the other vents and the Boiler's sight glass the system seems excessively contaminated, the return condensate level may be too high (slow wet returns) and the system pressure may be too high also.

j1smi48

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1849785#Comment_1849785

The radiators that feed off this pipe I am pointing at do not heat correctly. I think it is likely due to the trap failing and just sending all the heat into the dry return.

j1smi48

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1849790#Comment_1849790

I definitely agree with your points here. Thank you for your insight! I think my next question is the loop seal.

plumbj

Hi there

Take out the loop seal—your main should drain solely through trap 1 for proper flow and venting. 

delcrossv

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1849850#Comment_1849850

Agree on losing the loop seal, but that's a lot to ask of that 1 inch pipe. Better to replace the loop seal with a second trap.

@j1smi48 Does the main with the loop seal pitch toward the seal? Or back towards the boiler? Also, what size is the tee that the copper "main" starts from? Is it larger and reduced with a bushing? At 0.45 in your vid.

Lastly, where is the dry return for the radiators fed by this pipe?

109A_5

Since the radiators that don't heat correctly are past this 90 elbow I'll mention it again. To me this looks like a Union Elbow from a Trane Vapor System. They are usually found at the return side of the radiators, they have orifices, one for air and one for condensate.

The Orifice will restrict the flow of steam. It looks like someone intentionally put this part there, why didn't they just use a regular 90 and while there were at it simply use a copper one. It also would not surprise me if there is condensate siting in the pipe to the right of your finger depending on the orientation of the orifice. Maybe they drilled out the Orifice. The orifice would be in the spud part not in the 90. Maybe the 90 was a remnant from the original system and dilapidated pipes were replaces with copper. Maybe the Orifices have started to plug up with the excessive contamination in the system. If it was me I'd open up that union and take a look.

Also the two radiators to the Left, the ones that don't heat properly, where is the return for them ?

109A_5

If that loop seal is at the low part of that part of that Main, I would leave it, however I would modify it. If it does not impact the dry return pitch too much I would lower the dry return and /or raise the end of the main so condensate does not sit in the end of that part of the main.

Also make the loop seal go down almost to the floor unless you know the boiler pressure will not go over about 10 Oz.

delcrossv

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1849906#Comment_1849906

How would you vent the air from that branch then? Add a vent? Or send all the air to trap 1?

109A_5

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1849922#Comment_1849922

Why bother ? Since (unless I missed it) there are no radiators from where the smaller 'Copper Main' connects into the larger normal Main to where the loop seal is, you don't need steam there, It is like a dead end street with no houses that still needs storm sewers so the unused street won't flood allowing the water to migrate out into the other connecting street.

Now if you want to also put a steam trap there or an additional vent to enhance overall system venting (which the system probably needs) I am fine with that too.

I would not just remove the loop seal as others suggested, unless that section of the Main is pitched to drain away from the newly made dead end (basically counter flow). Since there is no other drips to a wet return in that area where is the condensate in the Main going to go ? All the way back to the boiler through the Main. The normal Main would be 1/3 ish full of condensate by the time it would drain into the smaller 'Copper Main'.

It is hard to tell but the Main looks like it fairly level and I believe it was intended to be parallel flow. So you need to deal with the condensate at that part of the system and not allow steam to enter the dry return.

EDIT: Presently the Loop Seal vents no air, unless the steam pressure is high enough to push it through the loop seal, maybe by design ? It definitely would not vent any air if removed.

Vent #3 in the pictures looks like a radiator vent anyways, not a main vent.

delcrossv

I recall there's a couple of rads before the tee at least. If the copper branch were larger I'd be more comfortable with everything venting through trap 1. In that case, yeah, loop it to the floor and call it good.

:" Presently the Loop Seal vents no air, unless the steam pressure is high enough to push it through the loop seal, maybe by design ? It definitely would not vent any air if removed."

If it did that, it'd put steam in the dry return. I'm thinking more a goof than design. Correctly done, it would be a condensate drip only. As you note, it wouldn't vent air.

109A_5

Maybe it is just a Watts Radiator Union Elbow. Don't know why they would use it there, they are expensive.

delcrossv

Still curious about that tee and the missing dry return.