Is my plumbing wrong
Hello! I am doing some home improvement that involves moving a radiator and here I am down the rabbit hole.
SO I noticed the following in my basement.
Green is coming from the boiler. Red is going towards some radiators I am diagnosing and the line does not get hot. Blue is…. connected to a drain line? (see below)
This isn't correct right?
Over to the right side of the picture above (out of frame) is a pipe that is connected to this same drain AND runs to a radiator. The other side of this same radiator is connected to the red line from the first picture. This means BOTH sides of this radiator are connected to the steam line and I see NO traps. Can someone please help me lol.
Comments
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Is there a vent on the radiator? Photo of the rad please.
Second, is that 3/4 copper line supposed to be your steam main?
Third, can you post some pictures of your boiler and the near boiler piping?
Need some photos from further away as blue looks like a drip and red would be a feed.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
To me this looks like a Union Elbow from a Trane Vapor System. They are usually found at the return side of the radiators, they have orifices .
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
1 -
Okay I have took some pictures.
- The radiator in question.
- It is in a built in cabinet thing so these are the best pics I can get. You'll have to take my word for it being a two-pipe system with no vent.
- It is in a built in cabinet thing so these are the best pics I can get. You'll have to take my word for it being a two-pipe system with no vent.
2. Yes that copper is the feed. IDK what designates a "main" but it is near the end of the supply line and does come from the boiler.
3.
4. Further away
I will attach 2. One that is annotated to match my pics above and one that is not. The new line (orange) is the drain line from the radiator in question. It connects to the blue line. Green is steam line from boiler.
0 - The radiator in question.
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I did not know how to reply as I am new to the forum. But I have answered your questions in a comment.
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Based on my research I know vapor systems are supposed to have the big cast iron chamber thing. I do not have that so I do not belive it is a vapor system.
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Don't worry about the elbow.
The orange line should be connected to a return line that is not directly connected to the steam supply. Where does the pipe the "orange" line connects to go? I see one side with the vent and vertical drip, how about the other end?
Is there a steam trap opposite the valve on the radiator?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Two pipe system, what is on the return side of your radiators. A picture of any of them.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
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I will once again attach two pictures, one drawn on and one not.
The red line is the same line as above. It is cold while the boiler is running. it runs straight up through the floor at the edge of the picture. The orange line is also pictured and is at the drip side of the radiator. This gets hot to the touch (i suspect due to the blue line). I cannot get a good pic of the other side of the radiator due to it being in a built-in enclosure. Perhaps I will find a selfie stick or something so I can reach, but I cannot do it at the moment.
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Here is one from moments ago… it contains nothing. Many are like this and some don't even have valves.
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Where does the other end of the orange line end up?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Where are you located?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
" Red is going towards some radiators I am diagnosing and the line does not get hot "
Did the radiators you are diagnosing ever work correctly ?
IMO there are many things that are not correct or at best very odd with your system.
One example; The one of possibly two main vents (two mains at the boiler) should not be puking and staining the wall.
The steam should leave the boiler through the larger insulated pipes and go to each radiator. The way it looks the radiator's condensate should return to the boiler through the un-insulated copper pipes.
There should be a means of limiting or restricting the steam from getting into the returns. Just an elbow at the condensate end of the radiator may not work so good. Since if steam gets into the returns it may trap air in some parts of the system and the part with the trapped air will not heat properly.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
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Running a system without traps is doable, but the supply to the rads and pressures need to be carefully managed. Hence the "where are you located" question. Looks like a number of things have been done incorrectly with the piping that'd need to be addressed.
Is it just the one rad, or are there system wide problems?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
One end connects to the blue line, the other end is the drip tube for a radiator.
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Lansing, MI
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The latter, there are quite a few with no traps. Some with no valves, some with valves that are stuck. I simplified it down for this question but this line in question had another radiator in it (set up in parallel, same source/drip tube) that stopped working and caused a pip to burst over the winter in my garage. I removed it while I am repairing the damage (you can actually see the capped lines in one of the pictures above). I think I am in for alot of work over the summer. I think I want to install valves and traps for each radiator. I want to insolate my source tubes.
I think my MAIN question….. should the blue pipe be connecting to that drip tube. If not, I will take it out and cap the open ports.0 -
They did get warm; however I think that is because steam was being forced up the drip tube (orange line). This was not correct and I think eventually caused a blockage.
The staining of the wall was from a failed vent that has since been replaced, I just didny clean up.
The copper pipes are actually connected to the valve side of the radiators which makes me think they are the sourec. Should they be innsolated… yes.
I agree. it needs traps.0 -
Follow the lines starting from your boiler and make a diagram. Each supply line from the boiler should only attach to one side of any given radiator. The end of each supply line should have a steam vent and then should drop down into a wet return. Each supply line should have constant pitch from a high side at the boiler to a low side where it drops down into the wet return.
The dry returns should come off the opposite side of each radiator, attach together and also drop into a wet return. The dry return should have constant pitch from the furthest radiator all the way back to the drop into the wet return. Each dry return should have a vent as well where the dry return drops down into the wet return. You'll also need a valve on the input side of each radiator and a radiator trap on the dry return side of each radiator.
Those copper supplies will all need to be insulated.
You'll really need a diagram to develop a game plan for fixing this.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
I will make a diagram. In the meantime "each supply line should have a steam vent and then should drop down into a wet return" surprises me. I think this is the crux of my confusion. Should it be a steam vent or a seam trap?
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And Lansing MI is in kind of a desert for steam…
And oh brother has it been knuckleheaded! It's going to be really hard, by remote viewing here, to figure out what's correct and what isn't.
To even begin to start, we really need that diagram. This will help you, too, @j1smi48 . Start at the boiler. The two big, insulated lines going up from the boiler are your steam mains. There will be branches from them, and each radiator should be served at the valve end by one of those branches. The diagram needs to show all those pipes, and how big they are and what they are made of.
Then from the other end of each radiator there will be a return pipe. Those will join together and, eventually, make it back to the boiler. Again, how big are they? What are they made of?
Then there may be other pipes which go vertically, perhaps down to the floor level, and they may connect either to a return at one end or to a main. Ditto as above. None of them should be the only way out of a radiator, but if they are we need to know that.
We need to know where any valves or other fittings are… and what they look like.
You mention that it is your impression that a vapour steam system — "Based on my research I know vapor systems are supposed to have the big cast iron chamber thing. I do not have that so I do not belive it is a vapor system. " That is just not true. Some vapour systems do — some don't.
One other comment: steam systems are systems. You can't analyse them successfully one component at a time.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Aah. Let me be more specific. Each steam MAIN needs venting. Branches going to the individual radiators are vented through the radiator, the rads steam trap and into the dry return.
You didn't mention any traps at the far end of your mains crossing over to your dry returns.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
From my research I see that one-pipe systems need a vent right before the drop to a wet return.
For two-pipe you need a trap between the supply and dry return, but you still need this vent at the dry return. Do you need a vent BEFORE the trap as well? If so, can you find me some documentation for this as I am coming up short on this.0 -
You can do it a number of ways.
- Crossover trap to dry return and vent dry return
- Vent on main+ drip into wet return ,dry returns get separate vents
- Loop seal to dry return with either a vent on main or a thermostatic trap to dry return and dry return gets vented, or
- Float and thermostatic trap
What's there now? Easiest to continue with the same method.
No matter how it's done, air has to be vented from the mains, the rads and the dry returns.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Okay I have made a diagram! It is basic as I found it basic to color coordinate everything with size,material, and what it is. So I can change colors depending on the subject matter. For now, this is what I have:
Note the steam trap between the main and the dry return. It could be this trap has failed, resulting in steam going up the dry return to another radiator.
EDIT: I forgot a vent and I numbered them. The two radiators under the arrow are the ones that don't heat correctly. In fact the return lines get hot, not the feeds.0 -
Do these radiators heat at all ? Which ones were you troubleshooting for no heat ?
What does this Trap look like ?
Is this Trap the one that is pictured above?
What is the height of this loop seal ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Looks like you have some of "all of the above". Thanks for the diagram!
1.I see you drew vents on some rads. Is this correct? Pictures?
2. Reiterating @109A_5 's question. Please post a picture of the loop seal.
3 Please post pictures of the crossover trap.
4. Also need to see the end of dry return vents.
5. Do any of the radiators have traps aside from the one? Or just elbows?
Which rads are not heating?
What is your pressuretrol setting?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Those ones do heat. I have remade the schematic. The ones that don't heat are the two under the arrow. The dry return gets hot, not the feed.
That trap, which I have numbered as trap "2" looks like this.
The other trap you mentioned which I numbered as trap 1 looks like this:
Height of loop is about 1.5 feet.
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- This is one of the vents on the radiators, they all look similar except to one I replaced myself which is an adjustable one.
2. Pic posted, but I'll add it again
3. I am unsure of which tap you meant, but I think you meant the one I designated as "1"
4. Dry run vents
#1 BLURRY :(
#2
#3 NOT LEAKING. That was the prior one that was replaced.
5. I only can see the one trap, everything else is elbows
6. Now annotated by a green arrow in the diagram
7. I don't know how to check this. I know it has something to do with these devices. These are connected together with the same pipe.
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This looks like it is at the end of one of the steam mains, in your diagram it looks like it is in the middle of a steam main.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
#1 is your crossover trap. If it's steam hot on both sides it's failed open. The cap comes off and the cartridge inside gets replaced.
You loop seal doesn't make a lot of sense.
It looks like it's at the end of the main, not the middle. It's also way too short. 16" will seal only 1/2 psi. Anything higher and it'll get blown out into the dry return. Your pressuretrol doesn't even go that low.
It makes more sense to take the dry return straight down to the wet return.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
1 -
Those are your pressuretrols They are both set WAY too high. Take one and unscrew the adjustment on the top until the slider is at the bottom of the scale.
If you open it up by loosening the screw on the front, there is a white wheel inside. The number 1 on the wheel shouuld be facing you.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
» And Lansing MI is in kind of a desert for steam…
Ain't that the truth.
I'm a few hundred yards over the city line in East Lansing.Shoot me a PM and I'll tell you about my experience with local steam contractors.. there is one guy who really knows what he's doing, but by the time I'd found him, I was so deep into the project I just finished it myself.
I wound up paying him a kind of retainer, because when he came to my house to bid the job, he provided some valuable information. I don't know from two-pipe steam, but I'd be shocked if he didn't.
cheers -matt
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#Pigtails
let's get a picture of the looped pipes under the Ptrols,
those are your pigtails, and they look to be steel, which are more prone to clogg than are their brass equivalents,
so while you're in this, check that the pigtails are clear and free breathing all the way back to the boiler steam chest so your Ptrols can "see" the boiler pressure,
known to beat dead horses
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It is in the middle. The steam main continues and feeds like 4 more radiators.
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These both seem to have the exact same source. Is that normal?
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So it drops down into a loop and then feeds 4 more rads from the 3/4 copper?
Can you take a pic from further away? I don't see how that could possibly work.
Nothing past this loop will get steam.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Um… well… that is a mess.
Do you have a copy of The Lost Art of Steam Heating? You need one. Then study it and especially low pressure systems. Before you do much of anything else, other than reducing your steam pressure.
That loop seal is useless. All it is doing — assuming the valve is open — is allowing steam into the dry return…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Ok, reviewed your diagram. That loop seal above needs to go. Your main should be draining through trap 1 only.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
As long as the main is pitched correctly.
Since the copper pipe looks like it is justified to the top part of the larger steel pipe I'm not assuming anything is pitched correctly. Does this larger steel pipe 'T' into the main vertically or horizontally ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0
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