Need second opinion on this Boiler install. Photos included

edwardpitzul

After a lot of research we finally hired a local company to install our boiler. We did the radiant floor tubing ourselves, after watching a lot of DIY videos but we are first timers. On the original quote we wanted a combi boiler to do the domestic water for a loft on the second floor of the shop. Which we originally talked to the company and they said that would be a good idea. Upon arrival and starting the job, the owner said that it would be more efficient to do a solo not combi boiler, and do domestic water separate on a electric heater. Which we agreed on but the quote we paid for was for a combi. He told us that the because he has to run a gas line that was inside it would wash the cost of the downgraded equipment. Which again we were fine with it but it wasn’t was we expected but followed along cause they are the professionals. After the gas line was installed to the boiler by him, the inspector came out to do a pressure test and mention that we also needed a pressure test on the radiant tubbing and the tech said that he could help us out with that, fast forward to the job is now done and ready for final inspection and water connected and system running. We are not happy with 2 things! The first is that the expansion tank is on the floor and would like to move it higher by the boiler, tech says that’s how he’s been installing them for years and that it’s to heavy and can get water logged if installed off the ground. The second is that the water pressure test wasn’t done, he said that he was out responsibility and not a part of the contract. I understand but why would he install the unit knowing that it would need a pressure test eventually. He said he could do it but would have to charge us a service fee for coming out. Our cost for this job is almost $ going to them. We paid them half up front and now they billed us for final payment. Please help with how I should handle this situation? Thank you

LRCCBJ

There is no issue with the tank sitting on the floor. Just forget about that. It works perfectly fine sitting right where it is.

Regarding the cost of the pressure test………………legally it depends on the contract you have with him. If it specifies (as it should) that the boiler will be fully approved by all authorities having jurisdiction, then you are not responsible for the additional cost. If it fails to state same, he has somewhat of an argument.

But, I would seriously doubt he will challenge a non-payment for the cost of this test and I would probably withhold that amount from the final payment.

However, depending on the cost of this payment, you do risk alienating him and that won't bode well for you if you need repairs and maintenance on this unit down the road. All mod-cons DO NEED attention periodically…………..some more than others. Be sure you don't need him in the future if you decide to withhold the cost of the pressure test.

edwardpitzul

@LRCCBJ Thank you for responding. Just really wanted the tank moved it’s wobbling on the floor and also no access for installing flooring, it’s in the way.

LRCCBJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1844341#Comment_1844341

Understood. That's personal choice. Speak nicely to the installing contractor…………he won't do it for free.

edwardpitzul

@LRCCBJ totally agree. Just was thinking that the tech would wanna make his customers happy

EBEBRATT-Ed

Since you installed the tubing, he feels it is not part of his job. That should have been settled before the job started.

clammy

where is the condensate neutralizer ?

Tom_133

Can that boiler be installed into a header like that without hydronic separation? Or am I not seeing the closely spaced tees?

LRCCBJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1844386#Comment_1844386

20-30 years ago, many (most) small businesses would bend over backwards for a customer. They would go out of their way, at their own time and expense, to make a customer happy. That was the most important thing for them.

Today, nobody gives a sht about anything but profit (if a company) or doing less work (if an employee). I cannot tell you how many times I need to contact an individual at a company………….usually with e-mail………..and the response is……………NOTHING. It's about 85%. No response whatsoever to the query. That does not make me happy.

How many companies sell a cheap product that won't last more than three years and yet they tout it as the best thing available on the market? They make it in China for $6.00 and they sell it here for $29.99. Does that deception make a customer happy?

With regard to installing and repairing boilers, the bar is so low and the capability so limited that none of them care about keeping a customer happy………………where else you going to go? Get in………..get the money………..get out. We have seen unlimited situations on this website where the tech goes in, fails to fix the problem, charges the customer, then returns again, fails to fix the problem………..and charges them AGAIN. How can any customer be happy with this business model?

clammy

Looks like no p/s pump direct piped and i fail to see a backflow preventer also i see a tekmar control on the side .I'm kinda wondering its purpose if its a outdoor reset because most mod cons have them built in unless its a wireless type ods in which case did someone forget to run the wire and install that instead if so i think using the ods that can w the unit and running wires instead of spending more and using a 3rd party control but maybe I'm wrong .

edwardpitzul

@EBEBRATT-Ed i agree should been better communications, but we don’t know much about boilers and didn’t know until the inspector came out and said something and now I’m stuck, cause he went on with the installation.

edwardpitzul

@clammy thank you for bringing this up? Their has to be a condensation neutralizer? I do see a pipe outside with water some condensation coming out of it? Where would that have to be installed?

edwardpitzul

@Tom_133 can you explain a little in depth? I don’t know much about this.

hot_rod

If the system is not dropping pressure, then the tubing should be solid. He has isolation valves on the manifolds so a pressure test would be a simple 15 miunute task. A pressure gauge could connect to the side port on this valve to pressurize just the loops.

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An isolation valve and union is on the expansion tank, so that would be an easy lift. It has tabs to be mounted on the floor. Those can be bent to take the wobble out.

You need at least 6 gpm for that many loops. If the pump can provide that and the boilers minimum flow, P/S may not be required. The installation manual would give you that piping option information.

I'd like to see a vertical air separator under the boiler, unless there is one inside the boiler?

There could be gallons of condensate coming out, so it needs to be drained away from the building and not able to freeze.

All in all it is not a bad installation.

edwardpitzul

@hot_rod thank so much for your knowledge and pointers. Doesn’t seem like the company wants to move the exapasion tank for me, don’t know how to approach this especially after how much money I spent on this project.

How would I know if the pump can provide that 6 bpm?

I see there’s a pipe outside the building that water is dripping out, assuming that the condensation drain..

Even if I need a air separator I don’t think they would install it as I can even get him to move the expansion tank or do a pressure test.. Thoughts?

hot_rod

The manual suggest primary secondary, however they do show an option to pipe it exactly like you have. The flow required is based on which model boiler you have? Here is the example for the small 86,000. And I think your system and piping piping would meet the minimum they ask for.

If it has been running for awhile and not going into a lock out error on the screen, you are probably okay fine. Maybe others here have experience with that specific boiler.

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That looks like a side connection expansion tank. It has a threaded union connection so pex could be adapted right there and pipe the tank wherever you prefer it. Or a more involved change would require re piping copper tube. I'm not sure if these changes are something you want to attempt?

I cant imagine more than an hour to move the tank.

Some codes require the condensate be treated before discharge. It just depends on where that water is ending up. It needs to drain away from the building.

Here is what the 2021 IMC code shows for condensate removal. It does mention discharge to grade outdoors. Boiler condensate will be a low ph until it contacts the ground and neautrilizes. So it may not be good for the lawn or flowerbeds unless they like acidic soil :)

It may need a condensate pump if there is no drain neareby. And a condensate neautralizer.

I would imagine the UMC or other codes are similar.

edwardpitzul

@hot_rod Thank you again for all the knowledge. We have the solo 110. And even if I need condensation pump and neutralizer. Just don’t think they will fix that unless the county inspector says so.

hot_rod

My mod cons when I lived in the country in Missouri all drained outside. If it is code compliant and has a means to soak away all winter.

The condensate ends up in the great outdoors regardless of being a drain to a septic or public sewer system, after all :) It just takes a few more processes to get there.

My roof gutters also managed to move a lot of water away from the buildings, it can be done with condensate.

A few jobs came across here where the condensate pump blasted the water outside the building as an option.

edwardpitzul

@clammy tekmar has a wire that goes outside, assuming that’s the reset? You think I need a p/s pump?