Looking for advice on balancing the system in my house to to help with heat and clanging

ecrofirt

Hi all! I stumble across this forum all the time so I thought I might as well come here to ask my questions.

I've got a small home from about 1950, converted from coal to oil many years back. I've got a Weil McLain 68 (468) boiler, which if I understand correctly has a 12.4 gallon capacity. I've got an image attached to this post that shows the entire setup.

I don't know the proper terminology so I apologize, but the house has 3 main 'runs' of steam mains. They are as follows:

• Run 1: 44ft @ 2 inches, which if I did my math correctly is about .96 cu. ft of air.
• Run 2: 24ft @ 2 inches, which is about .53 cu. ft.
• Run 3: 24ft, comprised of 8ft @ 2 inches and 16ft @ 1.25 inches. I believe that should be .31 cu. ft.

I'm looking for some advice on setting this up as best I can. I'm looking to vent the mains fast, and I especially want to make sure Run 3, where my kids' bedrooms are, is getting adequate heat.

So far this year I have:

• Flushed the boiler, added Rectorseal 8-way, let it run for a week or two, and repeated the process. I've done this 3x. I had dramatic improvement with the first flush and treatment. I had been getting a lot of surging and generally poor performance. Things went well for a few days after that first flush, but then it got wonky. I suspect a lot of sludge came down to the boiler. Things cleared up pretty well after the second flush.
• Replaced the old, worn out Hoffman main vent on Run 2 with a single Gorton #1.
• Replaced the old, worn out Hoffman main vent on Run 3 with dual Gorton #1s. This was before I'd done the math on the air. My thought process was to get air out of the steam main on Run 3 as quickly as possible. My son's room is where Rad 3-1 is, and it's the coldest room in the house despite being the closest radiator to the boiler. This change definitely got steam through Run 3 very quickly.
• Replaced the radiator air vents on Rad 3-1 and 3-2 with Gorton #6s.
• Lowered my pressuretrol as low as it'll go. Cut-in is about .5 and it cuts out at 2psi.
• The boiler started surging again. I think this may have been due to some oils introduced from the piping when I hooked up the new main vents. Skimmed the boiler for a few hours, completely flushed it, filled it again and treated it with 8-way again. No more surging.
• Replaced the air valve on Rad 1-2 with a Gorton #5. I previously had what I think was the wrong kind of vent on it, for a convector.

Here's where I'm at now. I'm getting a bit of clanging/water hammer now that I didn't have before. My initial thought was that sludge started to partially block a pipe, and it's creating a spot where water is pooling. I don't know if that's the case.

My son's room, Rad 3-1, is still cold. His radiator doesn't heat well, and there's some vacuum going on there. I suspect there may be a blockage in either his radiator or the 9 feet of pipe leading to it from the main. When I was first diagnosing things I could feel heat get about halfway down that 9 feet, at which point it was like it hit a wall and the pipe went cold. I've got more success with heat going to his radiator now, but the radiator itself is very slow to heat. When the weather is warmer I'm going to disconnect his radiator, flush it out, and replace the old valve with a new one.

My pressure still goes up to about 2PSI, which is causing some short cycling. When the pressure gets that high, the 2x Gorton #1s at the end of Run 3 start steaming — they clearly don't like the pressure that high. If I've read things well enough, this also sounds like it's basically back pressure, from something else venting more slowly than it could be.

I'm not sure what I should be doing with vents on the mains. Run 1 is the longest, and has almost 1cu. ft of air. I'm guessing I could use another #1 on it, but I'm not super clear on how to gauge exactly how much I should be adding. The 'Balancing steam systems' chart indicates that a single #1 can vent .7 cu / minute at 3oz of pressure. Adding a second one seems like it would definitely impact things as it would provide me with twice the venting capacity while the air capacity (.96 cu ft) isn't increasing. Same thing with Run #2, though that's about half the distance.

I wanted to ask the experts before I started spending more money. I know that one of the first things I need to do is get some additional insulation on my pipes, and that may make all the difference in the world. Based on what I've provided, what's the most logical move forward?

Thanks so much! I feel like the dad in "A Christmas Story", tinkering in the basement all the time. I've had a blast learning so much!

Long Beach Ed

Can you provide a photo of the boiler header and the piping connection for that runout to Radiator 3-1?

It seems your principal problem now is the poor operation of that Radiator 3-1 .

There is no plugging of your steam pipes.

The 9-foot long 1-1/4" runout to your 16-section problem radiator is marginal, and will require good piping elsewhere. A large vent on this radiator will encourage steam flow but quickly produce lots of condensate. A slow vent will reduce condensate flow but retard heating that radiator. Experiment with that. A larger runout will be more forgiving. Steam flow is fighting condensate. There may be ways to improve this without changing that piping.

A slower vent on Radiator 3-2 may encourage a more balanced flow toward Radiator 3-1.

Let us know what steam return you have in the vicinity of that radiator or steam main.

Reducing your steam pressure to no more than 1-1/2 pounds should help performance. That should be a goal.

You mention that your boiler is cycling on pressure. It should not be doing that unless it's very cold outside, returning from a setback or very oversized. Have you calculated the proper size of the boiler vs. what you have?

Generally you can improve system performance by using a single brand of radiator vents that share the same characteristics. Mixing vents from various suppliers often retards performance.

Nice diagrams and good work!

LRCCBJ

Run 1 is the longest, and has almost 1cu. ft of air. I'm guessing I could use another #1 on it, but I'm not super clear on how to gauge exactly how much I should be adding. The 'Balancing steam systems' chart indicates that a single #1 can vent .7 cu / minute at 3oz of pressure. Adding a second one seems like it would definitely impact things as it would provide me with twice the venting capacity while the air capacity (.96 cu ft) isn't increasing

Measure the time it takes for steam to go from the header to the end of Run 1. Put your hand on the header………..start the clock when your hand comes off the header.

Go down to the end of Run 1. Put your hand on the main. Stop the clock when your hand comes off the main.

What vent are you using on the 3-1 rad? Since the piping to it is marginal, the vent must be huge or the steam will just head over to 3-2 where the venting is better. Why would the steam make a right turn to go down 9 feet of 1.25" when it can easily head down towards 3-2 with the twin #1's right there? You might even need to remove one of the twins to get the steam to cooperate regarding the 3-1.

Jamie Hall

As the folks have noted, the piping to your son's radiator is marginal in size. It's also long. This makes it all the more important that it be absolutely straight from one end to the other, and that it have adequate pitch — it must slopw back to the main, and I'd want an inch or two in that length if I could get it. That may be where your hammering is coming from, especially at the beginning of a run as the pipe is heating up.

ecrofirt

Thank you for the quick reply! I've attached some photos that will help visualize everything. In the head-on shot, you be looking (from left to right) at runs 3, 2, and 1. There were some questions on the returns as well. To answer those: They're all 1.25" and they're pictured in the first photo. Against the back wall, at the top is the return for #3, with the return for #1 directly below that. The return for #2 is running right down the top center of the picture. There's a Hartford loop behind the boiler below the new "stop leak" feature I put in until the weather gets a bit warmer (the tomato sauce can addressing the slow leak I noticed on the water pipe).

I'm not sure how to calculate the boiler size I should have for the house, but I'd be happy to do so.

I've ended up with a mismash of radiator vents over the years, mainly due to being unhappy with purchases for one reason or another. Rads 3-1 and 3-2 were replaced this winter with Gorton #6s. 3-1 was a varivalve (opened fully), and 3-2 had a Gorton on it, but I don't remember what size it was. I noticed that one was failing to seal on occasion (likely due to the pressure and I didn't realize). In the diagram in the first post I've got a key for the air valves that are on each radiator. Generally I'm incredibly happy with Gorton and will likely replace out with Gortons as things fail. I replaced a sticky Hoffman 40 on Rad 1-3 this year, and I was initially going to put a Gorton on there. I've seen a lot of folks talk about how much they like the Ventrite #1, so I went with that one. So far, it's much quieter than its Hoffman #1A on Rad 2-2.

Another quick comment on Rad 3-1: The varivalve I recently removed from the radiator was installed a few years ago, replacing a similar one that was quite old. Open fully as it was, it should've been venting pretty easily I would think But my son's room actually seems to get a little warmer now than it used to. The radiator previously didn't start getting any warmth until the boiler was about a minute away from shutting off for hitting its target temp. At that point, as you can imagine, it never had much of a chance to get warm at all. His room has been mostly heated by residual heat and a space heater. After the swap out on the main from a stuck Hoffman to the 2x Gorton #1s and the #6 on his radiator, there was some improvement, though not as much as I'd have hoped.

@LRCCBJ, when I do the hot hand test, what would my ideal time be? I'm assuming I'll be worse than that time. If that's the case, I take it I'd want to add at least another #1 on to the main?

ecrofirt

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1844343#Comment_1844343

Thanks for the quick response Jamie. Over the course of that 9 foot pipe there's a 2.5 inch drop to the 45-degree elbow coming off the 2x1.25x2 T on the main.

And I should clarify a bit, I'm sorry.
After adding in the new main venting on runs 2 and 3, I'm noticing the hammer in my living room, which is where Rad 1-3 is. It's occasionally also on Rad 2-2 behind me. It's not excessive or non-stop, but it also didn't happen until I added venting.

I also wanted to make a quick note on the vacuum: I noticed vacuum on Rad 3-1. I attributed it to a potential blockage somewhere, something causing the steam to condense. It sort of huffs and puffs. It was very noticeable with the older Varivalve. I think there may also be a little bit of it on Rad 1-3 in my living room, but it's tough to tell. There's definitely a lot of air escaping that valve, but it seems to suck in a match flame a little bit every now and again.

LRCCBJ

@LRCCBJ, when I do the hot hand test, what would my ideal time be? I'm assuming I'll be worse than that time. If that's the case, I take it I'd want to add at least another #1 on to the main?

The "ideal" time would be something close to three minutes. However, this time does depend on the temperature of the piping when you do the test. If it is insulated, the piping might start at 140F or so and you should make the 3 minute time. If it is uninsulated and the piping is room temperature, the time is significantly more……………could be up to 7 minutes. If longer, more venting is needed.

If I were doing it, I would not add another #1. I would add a #1 vent right at the valve for 3-1. Get the main to give up steam to 3-1 rather than proceed down to 3-2. I'd probably steal one of the #1's from 3-2 and put it at the valve for 3-1. Some creative plumbing required at 3-1 to get it done but you must have considerably more venting on 3-1 if you want to get it to work.

ALSO: Get down in that crawl space and INSULATE that 9' run to 3-1. It will help dramatically.

Long Beach Ed

You have significant piping problems with your boiler which may restrict what you can achieve with venting.

I'll try to get you better heating on Radiator 3-1:

Try putting a slow (Hoffman) vent on 3-2 and see if that forces 3-1 to heat.

(There is no blockage in your 1-1/4" pipe. The panting vent is from bodacious condensate forming waves in the small, long runout by the fast venting. You can try increasing the pitch in that runout by lifting radiator 3-1 an inch or so…)

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Then if that helps:

I would switch the two main vents from Main #3 to Main #2.