Furnace playing games
Hello,
New here, and hoping for some help. Any/all will be appreciated.
I have a "new out of the box" (older system). Armstrong horizontal mount forced air w/Beckett oil burner. I'm pretty familiar with the system and have done the research to feel confident servicing it myself. Seems all techs around here are young and do not know anything about this furnace.
Problem…Everything works fine for a day, days, weeks, then all starts playing a mind game. Most the time will reach set temp, but then there's times where it seems to short cycle getting farther and farther away from set temp.. If I turn breaker off (cut power to unit), then turn back on, most of the time, it will cycle. Again, maybe reaching temp., maybe not. Temp set at 68, this morning wouldn't get above 60. Now set at 70, and holding strong (after doing nothing but turning breaker off and on). Recent issue, that seemed to have started this was, dead birds in exhaust flue. Cleaned everything, vacuumed, and fought the "short cycle" for long enough to check everything. Electrodes, CAD eye, limit switch, nozzle, filters, etc.. While reaching for a tool, brushed the reset switch, which wasn't poped, and suddenly all started working as should. Messed around with the switch some, and all was working well for a week+. Now Im back to, sometimes runs fine and holds temp., sometimes not. Does run and keep some heat when acting up, but will not reach temp.. For an unknown reason, seems to love holding 70, but not lower setting. Also, have a new thermostat that I installed while trying to troubleshoot issue. Flame looks nice, and all runs perfect as the burn goes, just have this issue with sometimes holds temp., sometimes not.
Im now thinking the issue may be in the ignition primary. One on unit is a R8184 G 1032, which appears to be "old school". I do have a new R7284U, which I believe will work. If this may be the issue, I can swap out, but just slightly on the novice side of the settings that can be made with this newer primary.
Would greatly appreciate any input. Thank you.
Comments
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You are focused on the room temperature. The focus needs to be on the burner.
When the room won't reach temperature, do you go down and observe the furnace? Is it running or has the primary shut it down? If it is the primary, you'd need to press the reset button on the primary, at which point it would immediately start. You would then observe it for at least 10 minutes to see if it will continue to run or shut down again due to the primary.
The above is necessary before we can go further.
The R7284U is a much better unit than the R8184 (which is probably original).
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Check you wiring. Check your neutrals. Check all the wire nuts. Sounds like a wiring issue to me.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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I have not had to press the reset at all during any of these "act ups". It has not popped. I only mentioned that as I just slightly brushed it at one point and seemed to make all work fine. Almost as brushing is just wiggled it enough to make a needed contact…???
Yes, I can control power to furnace while in basement working on it. So, yes, there when it starts up and runs. All seems good with a clean burn.
I am focused on both, as I do want room temp., while trying to figure out why unit dosent run long enough (at times) to achieve this.
This is an old furnace, but taken out of box as new just 3 years ago. I needed to replace my old, and found someone with the same unit sitting in back of his warehouse. Simple plug and play as that went. R8184 is original.
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sorry, furnace does shut down prior to reaching temp..
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I agree with Grallert. You have a wiring problem and something is loose. Take off the R8184 and rewire it from scratch with all new connections. Or, install the 7284U since you have it doing nothing. The problem is not likely to be the R8184 itself but you never know.
If the 8184 did NOT shutdown on safety, you have eliminated all combustion issues that might have been present.
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LRCCBJ - unit will cycle again on its own, but temp on thermostat is way below the temp calling for heat. Shuts down as what I would almost think as an "overheat" in normal situations. Kind of like a short cycle. Nothing pops as a reset would go.
Grallert - Yes, this is my next mission prior to changing primary. I've done a "quick" look, but not through.
Changing the primary seems simple enough, Im just hesitant on the settings that can be made during set-up. The delay times.
Thank you both!!
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Electrical issues can always be "mind blowing" especially with automotive. Im just baffled as to why a hard time keeping at least 60 this morning (as with other times) while thermostat set at 68. This was from 4-5:30 AM. then set thermostat to 70, breaker turned off and on, and has held 70 since.
I appreciate you both taking some time to respond. HAHA…Ive been on the verge of thinking I was loosing my mind.
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Seriously, if the furnace shuts down, it cannot bring the house up to 70°F. Nothing baffling about that.
The issue is simply why the furnace randomly shuts down. That's usually wiring, unless the 'stat is defective………….and you already ruled that out.
You want to talk about baffling……………changing a ceiling fixture in an old house…………..disconnect the line from the switch………….and shock myself with the opposite line. How's that possible? Well, when you switch the neutral…………that's what you get!!
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The R8184G could have bad contacts. If it wasn't in safety, but just lightly tapping it by coincidence started the burner, I'd say that's likely the case.
The R7284U is an easy upgrade. Just make sure you program it for no pre or post purge if there's no oil delay valve.
And FYI, oil burner service is not DIY. "The flame looks good" doesn't cut it.
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HVACNUT- I fully understand this is not DIY. My old oil guy was from a family ran business and an old timer who knew these older systems. Ran with basic tools and kept things running. They/he closed the doors years ago, and area took over by a more "commercial" type company with all younger (id guess in 20's) techs. I got tired of paying for multiple visits and problem not solved until 3 or more visits/bills. So doing research, both Beckett and Honeywell have alot of great info to read, and I did ALOT of reading. Yes, you need some basic concept to start, but there is alot of great information out there. My grandfather was also in HVCC, and did learn alot of "old school" from him. Today, and todays systems are ALOT different is some ways. All have basic things to check, besides flame. Draft, smoke, correct Ohms, and flue heat to check to be sure a furnace is running correctly and efficiently. All somewhat specialized tools to do so, with knowledge to use them. With my system, everything is well within the parameters to look for, just not mentioned. The only thing I didnt check was smoke.
I would NOT recommend anyone going at there system DIY without any knowledge. You Tube videos dont cut it. Some are good, but also have alot of not so good ones. Make you know enough to be dangerous.
In my case, system was running fine all day with thermo set at 70. kept house between 69 - 71 all day. At a point, I shut system down and went through wiring. Didnt see anything that fully stuck out as an obvious problem. Re-did all connections using dielectric grease. All is running again, at this time. We will see if it all stays good or not. If nogo after some time, I will opt to change primary. Every time I have done something, all will run fine for quite a few cycles, but eventually get to the point that wouldn't keep house heat up to temp set.
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HVACNUT is on it. Replace the bad primary control.
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All ran perfect all day, keeping house at 70. Of course issues arise when time to relax and sleep come.
I plan on making it through the night, and changing out primary 1st thing in daylight. My cellar access is out at back of house.
Im an "analog man", not keen on digital. "old school". Going with replacing the old R8184 with newer R7284 primary has left me with a few questions. I got wiring down pat, which has seemed to be an issue with few. I'm good there. Researching both furnace and burner, Im left with a couple…."I don't knows".
valve on delay - I believe 0
Ignition (lock out) time - 15 sec.?
Burner off delay - 0 ?
TT configured on - yes?
spark in on delay - no?
spark during run - yes, as following all I know for sure is the old primary is an intermittent system. I have seen yes, and no for this, but in my case going with yes.
Thanks in advance for any / all replies.
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spark during run - yes, as following all I know for sure is the old primary is an intermittent system. I have seen yes, and no for this, but in my case going with yes.
You don't need to be wedded to the old control. It cannot smack you with any judgment during the divorce.😁
The 7284 can be run as interrupted. Why do you need the spark output after the burner fires? In fact, there are some arguments that the combustion is slightly improved without the spark sitting directly in front of the nozzle.
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what really mess's with me is, it does run and heat. Will do so at demand from thermostat most of the time. As said, ran fine all day today. Now, I can almost guarantee, it will keep kicking on to keep house temp at 53 min., even though thermo set at 70. Haven't had ANY lock outs. I can seem to kick it on, from within the house, by turning breaker to it off and on. I really hope its all in the primary.
Worst part, and most mind baffling, is, every time I do something, system runs as should for a good amount of time. Acts up at worst times, usually night.
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Would you please stop fretting about it……………..just move forward in a methodical way and eliminate it.
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If valve on delay 0, burner off delay 0, as it should be without a delay oil valve, then "spark in on delay" correctly won't be an option. Spark during run, NO.
The hardest part for you is going to be getting all the wires in the junction box and tightening the screws without pinching the wires. Be careful here. They give you wire nuts and pigtails. Make good splices.
*Before you turn the power on, remove the cad cell eye from the burner. Close everything up and start it. Make sure the safety works and shuts off the burner within 15 seconds. Now pop the eye back in.
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Ptoblem solved….I believe so far …..10hrs into it.
i did opt out on replacing the primary with the digital R7284U, and went with R8184 G 4009. Why???. I'm in an area prone to loosing power, and couldn't find any definite information on what happens to the digital if this occurs. I did gather enough to believe that it will have to be reset manually when power comes back on. Not sure what happens with the 4009, but my old model 1032 would still keep going. I don't have faith in digital. Too far in the "boonies", and too much to loose if heat don't stay in the house, even if power only out for 1hr or less. I cant always run home and reset.
If someone has better to say about "digital", Ill listen. If not, so be it, what works for me, works for me.
Thanks for the input I got…..HVACNUT, techforlife.
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Almost forgot LRCCBJ also. Thanks for input.
I have a house full of previously neglected Cane Corsos. Another reason for not wanting a "stranger" to stop by. I've worked on this particular system for the past 20yrs., since mom and pop oil company went out. Never came across a problem as such. Most techs don't know the system at all, let alone what to do when face to face with a Corso that has attitude with human issues…haha.
Dogs are great, furnace running great, appreciate all the input you guys gave.
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Most techs don't know the system at all,
The ongoing sad story everywhere………………………………
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Glad we could help you remotely, if I saw those dogs I would drive away quickly. After so many years I am a human who has attitude with DOG issues...haha.
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The R8184G is antiquated technology. You will regret using that control when it prematurely wears out the electrodes and igniter. No oil burner should be operating with that control these days.
You have nothing to fear from the R7284U, unless you enjoy working on the oil burner when the R8184 wears out the ignition components. If the power goes out it doesn't lose any programming. These controls have been around a long time now, they are proven to be rock solid. Set it up for 15 second trial for ignition, this is much safer than the 45 second trial for ignition you have with the R8184. TT configured on? Probably no on a furnace. The thermostat wires probably go directly to the TT terminals on the primary control.
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@SuperTech says: "The R8184G is antiquated technology. You will regret using that control when it prematurely wears out the electrodes and igniter. No oil burner should be operating with that control these days. "
This.
We have numerous customers in the "boonies" with electronic primaries and don't have trouble with them. If you're wary, get a spare control and program it for your burner.
"Spark during Run" is a NO. You don't need it. The only reason the old control left the spark on was because it was cheaper to make them that way- you didn't need the second relay.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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From info Ive gathered through the manual, and research, Im led to believe if my power goes out, upon turning back on, the R7284U will have to be reset manually. Meaning, from what I believe, if I am not home the furnace will not heat until I go in basement and reset a lock-out.
If this is wrong, awesome!!. I would rather go with the R7284U as it also keeps a history. I do know the R8184 does not go into lock out. Honestly I have no problem replacing ignition components, which I do as preventative maintenance yearly, but if the R7284U will save some and not lock out during power failure…Ill take your word. Power on, heat back on…much better than coming home to frozen pipes or dogs.
Yes, thermostat wires direct to TT terminals. System is OLD, but fairly new out of box. Replaced OLD with exact same unit about 3 years ago. All parts obsolete now, but "upgrades" are out there. Takes a bit of research to find them at times. I ain't no spring chicken myself, but country boys don't die.
HAHA…and dogs, are good dogs. I just work with rescue and try to get "un-adoptable" dogs to where they can be adopted. Most live there life with me.
thanks for input.
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"The R8184G is antiquated technology" …..They say ya cant teach a new dog new tricks, but I know for fact ya can. Just have to be more stubborn than the old dog…HAHA
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typo….old dog
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" Im led to believe if my power goes out, upon turning back on, the R7284U will have to be reset manually. "
How or where was this inferred ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Manual with the R7284U.
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would be 0 voltage. May be in how its read. Has it been proven?. I know a lot of cases, a few hrs may not hurt, but I tend to be a tad different situation. If Im without heat for 4+ hrs., may be in trouble. I work usually 1hr from home, but at times much further. We can loose power here for some time…..run off generator.
Id just want a "sure thing" situation.Know when power comes back on, heat comes back on.
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I could not find anything about a power failure requiring a manual reset or even causing a Hard or Restricted Lockout.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
You can test the r7284u for lock out on a power failure simply by turning it off at the emergency switch. But the issue is usually caused by an erratic reconnect of the power lines causing the relay to chatter. This has been my rural power experience for what it's worth.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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If the power goes out, it's the same thing that happens when I shut off the system to work on it. When I turn the switch back on I don't have to do anything with the control. I don't know where you got the idea you would have to reset the primary control.
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Install an RA117A. Auto reset AND interrupted ignition. Win win. 👍
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You're joking, of course…………
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
I figured since he's going backwards in time and technology, why stop there? If you're gonna do it, do it.
Its ok. Even after 27 years, my wife still can't tell when I'm serious or joking.
And shouldn't all primary controls have a 15 second safety in 2025? Why is the R8184G still available? And we read here recently the RA117A is just now being discontinued. That's crazy to me.
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I really want to know why the R8184G is still available. I tossed one yesterday that had killed a fairly new 51771U electronic igniter. Replaced the igniter, electrodes and installed a Carlin 70200.
The odd thing is that boiler was originally equipped with a Genisys and clean cut pump. Some Super Tech ripped out the pump and installed a A2VA-7116 and R8148G when the boiler was locking out on safety. I found the real problem was the power venter was never setup properly and the draft over fire was -13" before I reduced it to -.02". Nobody could figure out why that boiler was sooting up for years …lol
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Probably the same reason the RA117 was only recently discontinued- they still sell a lot of them. If it sells, they will keep making it.
Unless the burner or boiler will be replaced soon, I replace every R8184 I find, and add a delay valve as well.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
damnnn….didn't know this would turn out as it has.
first, the entire "new out of the box" unit is "back in time". It replaced the old unit (as an exact match) which lasted (with minimal maintenance) for 30+ years, and Im sorry, but things these days are not made with the pride they used to. The old unit wasn't bad, but fan bearings slowly going, so decided to replace. I run into this recent issue never experienced, and dint really understand why it was working as it was. I go with "antique" primary to fix issue. So why not re-equip old stuff with old technology?. they work together. Old furnace was bullet proof for the most part, as I would think same thing, but newer out of box would be same. Do you even see Armstrong vertical mount forced air oil burning furnaces anymore?? It works, easy to work on, and reliable for a good portion of its life.
My issue ended up being purely electrical, as something in the primary was failing and not being anywhere near constant, so drove me nuts. I just wanted a little input, as any tech that was around that can work on the system is either dead or retired. I've researched, and worked on this specific unit for the past 26 years. As a homeowner, that's what I do. Heck, I work on my own cars, wire my own home, build my own additions, etc.. "Jack of all, master of some".
Second, Im a welder by skill (36years+), Union Ironworker by trade (26+- years). Now I sit in an office estimating jobs because my body is broken. If I were to get on a welders "help discussion board", I would help out the best I could without being sarcastic. Blue collar workers are a dieing breed. I don't get on the boards, because I never have time, or else I would love to help someone out. You want "hands on teaching?"…Im game.
I don't see it as "going backwards", Im staying in the era when things were mostly made U.S.A., and with pride.
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Good grief guys, if it's fixed, well good. Maybe getting too technical with a homeowner. Let it go.
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@JWeis I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or judgemental about your repairs. I'm just trying to explain to you how the R8184 is highly inferior to the R7284U. I apologize if my posts seemed that way. You have a lot to gain and nothing to lose by installing the R7284U. A shorter trial for ignition makes the burner safer to operate, interrupted ignition will save your ignition components from unnecessary wear and tear. And the built in diagnostic features will help make troubleshooting the burner a lot easier in the future.
By the way I work on plenty of Armstrong furnaces like yours.
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This. Also, Code has changed since that furnace was made. The 15-second trial for ignition is required now.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0
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