Seeking Engineer for Off-Grid Religious Facility Heating in the Mountain States
My architecture firm is currently designing a new religious facility in one of the Mountain States where the client has specified no electricity usage in the building. We're seeking a consulting engineer who can help us explore and design heating systems using wood-fired boilers or furnaces. Does anyone know of an engineer or engineering firm interested in collaborating on this unique project?
Thank you all!
Comments
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No, I don't know anyone. But let me ask for clarification of anyone who might be interested — and make a comment or two.
The clarification: no electricity usage in the building, or no electricity usage on site? Makes a difference. If there is no electricity on site, you are looking at purely gravity driven flow and hand firing of any boiler or furnace… and all mechanical controls.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Presumable this is in an area without code enforcement? The IRC requires electricity.
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Leaves you with steam or gravity hot water. There are a number of hand fired boilers out there.
How big is the proposed facility? Steam may be more cost effective over GHW.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Is the restriction "no electricity", or "no utility power"? The construction cost of a hot water system using simple electromechanical controls and an ECM circulator pump powered with batteries charged by a small solar array would be considerably less than the construction cost of a system that operates only by gravity. Gravity circulation requires larger pipes or ductwork, and the design and construction skills are no longer standard in the trade.
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Bburd0 -
That's why steam came to mind. Especially if it's no electricity at all. Smaller piping.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
@delcrossv in theory steam would be an economical way to get the job done… But where will the builder find qualified steamfitters who can install that system properly at a reasonable cost in "the mountain states"?
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Bburd0 -
Hand fired steam boilers are, of course, perfectly possible — had them for years! Still do, on some heritage trains. But… either you have rather simple mechanical draught controls or you have a fireman. And the draught controls are not all that easy to find these days, since I doubt that anyone has made them for a century or so…
Another question. How big is this structure? Or is it multiple buildings?
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Might be worth looking over at coalpail..com Someone may be making/refurbing them .
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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Hmm. Good question. But, with piping sizes from an old manual and remembering pitch etc, I'd think it would be "doable". Gravity Hot Water would have it's own issues, maybe more these days.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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Also, are you planning on insuring this building? Around me insurance companies won't insure a building unless it has a thermostatic-controlled heating system, and won't insure anything that burns solid fuel (wood or coal).
Being off-grid is a romantic notion but there are a lot of practical details to work through.
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I immediately thought of a post apocalypse compound with very few parts. Efficiency takes a back seat to simplicity, durability and ease of repair. Steam vs gravity in a no parts store world. The sun and wood.
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Honestly a Passive-haus design may be easier.
Super thick walls Top notch euro tilt/ swing windows.
Barely need to heat it w/ much at all…. maybe just some candles.
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can you narrow down the state?
Rader Engineering in Avon Colorado does interesting work like that
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Hello Jamie,
Thank you for your interest and thoughtful questions.
There will be electricity available on site; however, the client has provided specific instructions that they will not use it within their main building. This aligns with their religious charism, which is similar to that of the Amish (though they are not Amish). As a result, they are seeking a purely gravity-driven flow system with hand firing. They are aware of the challenges this presents and do not expect modern temperature control—internal temperatures of around 50°F in the dead of winter would be acceptable to them.
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Based on our preliminary research it seems that this will be the best options. However, we were wondering if a gravity furnace(s) would also be something worth considering. Are there any reasons why a furnace wouldn't work?
The facility will consist of two main buildings, each around 11,000SF.
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Wild guess..Creston Colorado...We installed and maintain a couple Solar intergrated Heating systems in that area.PE us if that is the area.
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Yes, we will be considering very thick, highly insulated walls. The Euro tilt windows I am aware of are Zola, Innotech, EuroLine, WASCO and EAS. Are there any others that should be considered?
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hot_rod
Thank you for the recommendation. I need to be mindful of the Client's desire for anonymity, but it appears that Rader Engineering would be able to consult with us on the project given the project location. I will reach out to them and see if they have any interest.
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I am happy to propose some compromises to the client, I'm grateful for the suggestions. The client would not like to have any electricity powering anything in their main buildings.
I will certainly need assistance with developing the heating options, and presenting the implications of one system over another. Understood on the issues with this being a non-standard request by the client; all my research led me here, and this seems that the HeatingHelp community would be one of the only out there to steer me in the right direction.
Since the client will be heating with wood, should a gravity furnace be considered as well as steam and hot water?
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Thank you for the comment. Would a Solar Integrated Heating System require pumps?
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Not that GHW wouldn't work, just that the pipe sizes are larger (more expense) and even more attention needs to paid to proper pitch and sizing. Given your building sizes I'd suggest 1 pipe steam.
Gravity hot air rarely works well unless you're talking about a small house, I wouldn't recommend it.
RTK may have linear actuators you'd need for pressure driven draft control.
Hurst boiler makes hand fired boilers in your size range
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
So candles for lighting in the main building? Or is it day time use only?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Not a heating pro, just a homeowner/mechanical engineer.
I will ask a question for the pros to weigh in on. Would gravity hot water not be the simplest option from a control point of view? With a steam system, you have no heat unless you get the water temp up to 212, and then you have the usual problems with venting, etc.
Seems to me a gravity hot water system would be more forgiving, since you can get heat from water at almost any temperature, so your supply water temp can vary widely and you don't have to be as fussy. Also, with the large water volume that you would have for such a large building, you have a large thermal storage mass in that water that can release its heat gradually over many hours, unlike steam that has essentially no thermal mass except the radiators and pipes.
And you have no vents to worry about, no balancing, no water hammer, no searching for the improperly pitched pipe that's causing trouble.
Room temp control can be as simple as TRV's on the radiators, and then it doesn't matter what the water supply temp is. You just fire up the wood boiler in the morning, get it hot enough for a reasonable supply water temp, and let it gravity circulate with the radiator TRV's doing the local temperature control. Then add wood to the boiler periodically throughout the day.
Am I missing something?
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Whale oil works much better than candles. There's a reason it conquered the world.
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gravity water with the walls as thermal batteries and emitters.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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You need something to absorb the heat when the fire is blazing and all the TRV's are turned off. It also has to release the heat when all the TRV's are turned on. And it has to work passively.
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Things have progressed a little
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Big buffer tank at the far end of the supply loop, on the floor above the boiler, with no valves. So even if all the radiator TRV's are closed, the buffer tank will still allow gravity circulation and absorb excess BTU's until the boiler cools down.
Then maybe an HX loop inside the BBT to release the stored BTU's, also by gravity hot water, into upper floor rads on TRV's.
Without any electrical/electronic controls whatseoever, any hot water or steam system is going to need a human to provide some degree of input control, mainly by regulating the rate of wood input into the boiler, and controlling the firing rate via air shutters. The system needs only enough buffer to handle the max BTU output from several hours of inattention until the fire dies out. The main virtue of the hot water system is that the boiler fire can be kept relatively low and steady throughout the day, which makes it easier to regulate, vs steam where you need to generate at least 212 F.
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Begone with that sorcery!
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a solid fueled boiler without any electronics will take a full time operator. Adjusting the fire to the changing loads on the building, watching weather forecasts, over heat loop management, etc
Are there any non electric wood burners that meet the EPA requirements ?
Seems like you need a fan forced gasification type to comply.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I don't believe gravity hot air would be practical in this situation. You have two 11,000 square-foot buildings. The few gravity furnaces still manufactured are sized for single-family homes as far as I know. You would need multiple furnaces and chimneys in each building.
Hot water and steam systems are more adaptable to larger buildings, and larger solid fuel fired boilers are still manufactured.
You may have another challenge heating the ventilation air needed for adequate indoor air quality per ASHRAE 62. Religious buildings generally include a place of assembly with a large population.—
Bburd
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Are there any non electric wood burners that meet the EPA requirements ?
Looks like it.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
I don't know if it's mentioned or asked, but is this thing going to make domestic hot water as well? A whole added issue. As far as heating I would think a very high mass emitter like a masonry heater with a gravity boiler loop and one or two or more wood fire boxes and flues. The mass acting as a massive thermal battery charged with the boiler or the fire boxes or both. This could potentially make and store domestic hot water as well.
That's my hair brained idea.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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50 boiler hp, the smallest size is 1.6 million btu/hr! Maybe they will add a gravity snowmelt system.
Although there will be an altitude derate if it is in the mountains of Colorado.
Start gathering up that beetle kill pine to feed the beast :)
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
Actually it could be a good option for a small district system to supply their additional buildings. Or with a large buffer tank.
Personally I'd design a large drainback solar thermal with wood back up. They are in a good location for ST, lots of clear sunny days.
With enough storage 100% ST is possible.
This building in Switzerland had enough surplus to pipe some "free" heat to the neighbors. About 54,000 gallons to carry the building heat and DHW year around. The locals raised and lowered that tank into the ground by hand!
I suppose their budget will determine how creative they will get.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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Does the engineer have to be licensed in the state?
Has the building site an adjacent space somewhat lower?
I know that a century ago buildings were steam heated with an external "boiler house".
Some of the boilers were kettle type. Feed water was collected snow.
Wood was seasoned for over a year. Many cords under lean to.
Coal is preferable. Especially furnace coal. But thermal coal is still better than gleaning wood.
It is better to overheat buildings than to let a solid fuel boiler go cold.
My experience with off grid is that folks end up hauling in propane;kerosene; & heating fuel.
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It helps if you have someone in the community who is a professional arborist. There's an off-grid community out in central MA consisting of a main gathering building for community, plus several surrounding residences. One of the community founders is a guy who is a professional arborist, so his job is cutting trees. Last time I visited several years ago, I saw his huge 3-sided wood drying sheds. I think he had something like 10 cords drying at any given time. They heated the main building with wood stoves.
He told me he dried his wood for something like 4-5 years, at which point it was so dry you could light a large chunk of oak with a match. I watched incredulous as he loaded a large wood stove with this dried oak, then lit it with one match. No kindling, no paper, no sticks.
So if you have at least one guy who is a professional tree cutter/splitter/stacker/drier/stove maintainer, then you can heat large buildings with wood. If you don't, then you have to pay someone else to truck the wood in, but you still have to dry it, haul it inside periodically, stoke the stoves/boilers, etc yourself.
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Have you been to Colorado lately? Plenty of dead dry, standing beetle kill pine yours for the taking. They bulldoze it into pipes to burn to lessen the fire danger in the forests. Not the best firewood for btu content, but the price is right.
Having heated with wood for almost 30 years now, it is far from free heat. Gathering, splitting, hauling, storing, ash removal, chimney sweeping, all takes time an fuel to accomplish.
The best deal in Missouri is when the tree companies cleared the power lines near you property. They would drop the wood off at your door to lessen their truck time to haul it away. Same with loads of chips, how many can you take was the reply when you asked them.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
@hot_rod I lived in Denver from 1995 to 1999 and spent a lot of time in the mountains. Beetle kill was starting to be a thing, but it hadn't ramped up yet. When I went back a few years ago I was shocked at how bad the beetle infestation had gotten. Very sad.
My teenage years were spent with my Dad cutting, chopping, drying, and hauling "free" firewood, and keeping our two wood stoves running. As you say, it was not free! Unfortunately no utility companies ever did me any favors…
I still love a nice wood fire, but only if someone else has supplied the wood!
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