Residential Steam Boiler Replacement - Questions
Hi guys!
I’m a newbie to steam heating and boilers and I have some questions about replacing a gas fired steam boiler
A few years ago we bought a 4 Family house in Brooklyn, NY. its approx. 3200 sq ft, there’s 2 apartments on each floor and the basement is used for storage. The boiler is almost 40 years old, its a 245K BTU Burnham, (See images below)
I called my tech at the beginning of this season to service the boiler, and he told me that it has a crack and will need to be replaced in the near future. Over the last few months, it has been losing water and constantly needs to be refilled. I asked my tech for a quote for a replacement, which he provided.
Before I go ahead with the replacement, I want to make sure that it will be done correctly the first time around
I have spent some time on this site reading and watching videos and have learned a lot from it, thank you guys!
My questions are;
- Near boiler piping - is a Must, I will make sure that it is included
- Isolation valves to perform a yearly cleaning (King valve, return valve, mud leg drain valve) This isn’t currently included. Do I need this in my system, should I request it?
- Clean and skim. There is no mention of this in his quote. What do you recommend?
- Chimney - the quote says that it doesn’t include Chimney lining or cap. I’m not quiet sure what that is or if I need it.
- Boiler size - the quote is for a 238K Williamson, though the radiators weren’t measured
- What else is important?
Also, I would like to get a quote from another heating company that has experience with steam systems, the “Find a Heating Contractor” tool on the website has many options, are there any specific contractors that you would recommend for my situation?
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond
IK
Comments
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Number 3 and number five are instant disqualifications. Boiler must be skimmed, and the only correct way to size the boiler is by measuring radiators.
Personally, I am not a big fan of king valves. Just one more thing to go wrong. Rather than coming up with all sorts of creative means to pressure bomb the sludge out of the boiler, it is preferable and possible to avoid the sludge in the first place.
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Definitely a good idea to have the chimney inspected and lined if necessary. And to have a chimney Cap added if necessary. But typically that's not the job of the boiler company. Will typically be done as a separate job by a chimney company
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And just to back up a bit. Are you certain that the boiler is actually leaking? Easy way to check is to fill the boiler above the top of the boiler, and see if any water comes leaking down onto the burners
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You might want to think about replacing the wet returns. Not critical or vital but something to consider.
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Need to measure all the radiators for sizing. DO NOT SKIP THAT PART. The contractor is 100% guessing if they don't measure. It's easy to do if you'd like to complete the task on your own, we are happy to help.
Valves, I wouldn't worry about king valves, I'd make sure they included valves at any low point so you can flush things out if needed, I think that is more important.
Skimming is a relatively easy task if you'd like to take it on yourself, what is important is that they install the skim pipe so the skimming can actually happen. That is very important no matter who does the work.
If you have concerns about the chimney, contact a chimney company and have it inspected and see if they recommend having it lined. If I was guessing, they will suggest it needs lined.
Make sure the quote says they will do the piping to manufacturers specification, including proper pipe size. The pipe size is important. The one they quoted needs 3" header, we see on here frequently that they don't like going over 2" piping, don't let that happen. Of course we don't even know if the quoted boiler is the right size.
I am not familiar with NY geography to know 100% which contractors would serve your area, but I'm pretty sure there are several good ones that to Brooklyn. Others may chime in on that.
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Steam Doctor's the doctor; what he says is 100%.
Asking a Brooklyn boiler salesman if you need a boiler is akin to asking a Brooklyn barber if you need a haircut.
If this guy wouldn't size the boiler by measuring the radiators, I wouldn't be sure your boiler's leaking.
How much water are you adding weekly? (How many inches in the sight glass?)
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The good news is that there are a few well respected pro's on this site that service your area. I'm sure they will chime in soon.
100% agree with @STEAM DOCTOR
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It is a Burnham after all
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Also, go to the books store here on this sight and get "we've got steam heat". I think that's the name of the book. You will want to become knowledgeable on you steam system it will save you headaches and money.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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@JohnNY for one.
I don't mind king valves, but more important is easy access to the mudleg.
If your guy gave you a quote without measuring the rads, you can take him right off your list.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.3 -
Everything @KC_Jones said plus do the mamual fill test on your boiler to make sure it is actually the boiler itself that is leaking (not a return line or leaky vents...).
If you have been on this forum you are probably familiar with the radiator edr estimating tables. If not ask. See that 628sqft number on your boiler plate? That should match up to the total edr of your radiators. Ideally it may be 5-10% less. You should do this sizing yourself so you know. Nonetheless, a qualified steam guy would do it anyway rather than just basing off your existing boiler.
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Thank you
That is an interesting point you make, I didnt consider otherwise, based on the amount of water that needs to added and the age of the boiler.
I will try test you mentioned
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I dont have a clear amount but the low water cutoff is kicking in and turning off the boiler, then the automatic feeder kicks and the boiler comes back on a short while later. When I add a few inches of water in the sight glass within a few days its back to the low water cutoff kicking in
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I'm aware that the near boiler piping is crucial, I didnt realize how important it is to measure all the radiators. I'll look around this site to learn how to do that on my own.
I see both @STEAM DOCTOR and @KC_Jones discourage putting in a king valve. How do you avoid a buildup of sludge?
Regarding the skimming, I think I will ask whoever is doing the replacement to take care of that
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I see both @STEAM DOCTOR and @KC_Jones discourage putting in a king valve. How do you avoid a buildup of sludge?
You add a little 8-way product to your boiler water in order to increase the pH which dramatically reduces the amount of corrosion that occurs.
And you absolutely minimize the amount of fresh water entering your boiler (from things such as blow-downs and leaks), but that should go without saying.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I would start with the symptoms and that someone told you it needed to replaced when you call one of the NYC contractors, have them diagnose it first rather than asking for a replacement. It could be a return leaking somewhere where you can't see it or condensate that is delayed in returning to the boiler or water getting thrown in to the mains from the boiler and tripping the lwco.
There can be other places besides the boiler for leaks and there can be system issues that cause the water to leave the boiler and trip the lwco.
If you fill the boiler to the mark on the sight glass while it is off, if you check it over a couple days(or hours if it is leaking a lot) during the off cycle, does the water level fall?
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Hi
I did the test and got confirmation
I opened the water supply to the boiler and watched the level rise in the sight glass. As the level reach the top of the sight glass I heard water dripping and saw it pouring out over the burners
I lowered the water level to the higher black line on the sight glass and fired up the boiler. I went to the roof and saw clouds of steam coming out of the chimney. Within an hour the water level was so low that the LWCO turn off the boiler until the feeder topped it up
Looks like it's time to replace?
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yes, new boiler time.
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I own a 4200 sq ft house that includes a 900 sf apartment. I had our leaky gas-fired steam boiler replaced about 8 years ago after reading lots of advice on this site. The Strictly Steam professionals on HH.com are amazing. When I did the radiation calculation I found that I could cut the size of the boiler by fully one third.
One other thing I've found super useful is a VXT automatic water feeder because it has a water meter and display so you know exactly how much water is going into your boiler over time. This is in place of the usual stock feeder. I didn't want an errant leak to go unnoticed and end up adding lots of oxygen rich make-up water. Finally, I always use one or two Steamaster tablets once a season after refilling after blowing it down. The label on the bottle recommends more tablets but my boiler only takes about 7 gallons of water.
Good luck!
Slant/Fin TR-40 w Carlin EZ-Gas burner. 3" riser into 3" drop header. Two 2.5" mains: 43' and 25' serving 11 radiators w/ EDR of 585. 3200 sq ft 1850s Greek Revival house in Concord NH - 7478 avg degree days.
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you can take the jacket and probably the flue collector off or look up with a camera or mirror to confirm it is leaking somewhere in the heat exchanger, there is a small possibility that a connection of some sort is leaking but if a section or joint between sections is leaking it is unlikely to be worth the labor to repair that if it is even repairable vs replacing the boiler
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Post pics of the front and sides of all your radiators. Measure dimensions: height from floor, width, length along the top not including the thickness of the endcaps, and center-to-center distance between each section. Writing/symbols are helpful to identify manufacturer.
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I'm not sure exactly where the leak is coming from
In this video you can see it pouring out the bottom
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It is very likely a hole rusted in a section. it can't hurt to take the jacket off and confirm that but i'd be surprised if it wasn't.
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Yeah, I started measuring and taking pics of all the rads to calculate EDR
The building has a total of 15 radiators, most are the same type. I'll post here when I have all the measurements and pics
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Can you show all the piping on the boiler, floor to ceiling, all sides?
How about your main steam air vents also?
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I’m a plumber in NYC in queens, see far too often guys around here just go off the size that was originally there. 100% have someone who measures and check all the rads as well as the near boiler piping and the main in the basement before deciding on a size and brand. I install, but personally don’t size them, if you’re looking for a trustworthy company in BK or the general area feel free to message me
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