Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

The Result of Using Non Barrier PEX

Ironman
Ironman Member Posts: 7,659
edited February 4 in THE MAIN WALL

For those who still think that it doesn’t make any difference whether you use O2 barrier PEX, look at the rust and sludge in this water.

This is after 8 years and the only iron or steel in the system is the the pumps, two steel headers, and the expansion tank. The rest is copper or non barrier PEX.

This was one of several buckets full and I still haven’t finished flushing it.

Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
Mad Dog_2Intplm.

Comments

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,131

    UGH. Looks like a real mess.

    Intplm.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    you may want to run a cleaner in it for a day? will you add a conditioner when you refill?


    I hope you don’t need to plug anything in😳

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2Mad Dog_2
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,659

    I was gonna ask you what conditioner you recommend?

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,606

    I would recommend replacement of any ferrous materials for Brass,bronze and Stainless steel. A magnetic filtering device which is not made off ferrous materials would be a great addition as well.

    Mad Dog_2Intplm.BruceSteinberg
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    I would run a hydronic cleaner, Fernox, Rhomar, Adey, Axiom. I think they are all similar. Then use that brand conditioner. The conditioners have oxygen scavengers in them to deal with O2 ingress.

    However you need to check it every years or so and probably add a boost of the inhibitors. The inhibitors get "used up" consuming the oxygen.

    Use the test kit from the chemical manufacturer. They all offer test kits.

    The lower the temperature that you run it, the lower the O2 ingress.

    Or isolate everything with non ferrous components as @Derheatmeister suggested.

    Is it a water heater as a heat source? If so it is a glass lined tank so maybe just an Extrol Pro expansion tank and stainless circ? I don't see the steel header?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Mad Dog_2Intplm.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,659
    edited February 5

    Thanks Bob.

    I plan on going back and flushing it until the water runs clear and then using Fernox and flushing again after a couple of weeks.

    Fernox said that they don’t have a conditioner for O2 scavageing. That’s why I was asking about another brand.

    The system was installed eight years ago by others and they gutted all the CI rads and put in Unico AHUs with hot water coils. They ran non barrier PEX to every thing.

    We replaced the leaking storage tank with a SS indirect and that’s when we encountered all the sludge.

    The storage tank was connected to an instantaneous as part of an unnecessary and ill conceived setup.

    We left it where the tankless could pre-load the indirect by changing a couple of valves if needed for a time of heavy usage. Probably won’t ever happen.

    The indirect can be partially seen in front of me.

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    I know the Rhomar products have a O2 scavenger included in the blend. As In recall sodium sulfite.

    The other important ingrediant ia a film provider. After the system is cleaned the 922 or 925 puts a thin coating on the metals. This helps ptotect them from corrosion. Similar to a rust coating on exposed metal, or anodized aluminum.

    You can buy stand alone O2 scavengers, like the OWF manufacturers provide. It may be less $$ but doesn't include the ph buffer, film provider, etc.

    If you have any aluminun in the system it takes a specific conditioner.

    However if the ThermoCon is in the hydronic loop? it will take a lot of cleaner and conditioner.

    The fill water quality is part of the equation also. If it is hard or high TDS, maybe get a DI cartridge to fill through.

    Axiom has a few different cartridge sizes.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Ironman
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,513

    I used to use Fernox a lot... exclusively. Then I noticed the results were less than great.

    Thats when I switched to Rhomar.

    I have had much better results.

    mattmia2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,724

    Neato......Nice clean work. Mad Dog

  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,724

    I call that Red Splunck (HW systems) versus Black Splunck (Steam) . Mad Dog

  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,864

    Such a shame. Mental midgets that say " If water can't get out, how can oxygen get in?" Trust me, it obviously can and it occurs at a molecular level most people don't know exists. Believe it or not, there is actually a water quality standard that numerous well known hydronics experts and companys had an input to. It's titled ANSI Standard H1001.1

    https://iapmo.org/newsroom/press-releases/iapmo-publishes-standard-for-quality-of-heat-transfer-fluids-used-in-hydronics-systems/

    I remember the EARLY arguments between the Chiles Brothers and Wirsbo, about whether it mattered or not. Entran rubber (E2 specifically) had drawings showing the alledged 02 barrier in three different places of the tubing. In reality, it had NONE, and it did a LOT of damage. Got as hard as glass when exposed to temperatures around 180 degrees F.

    Even if you can eliminate all ferrous components, the water quality still needs to be monitored and maintained. This is where the argument of "But it's JUST water…" comes into play. The drinking quality water standards are less stringent than the H1001.1 standards. And as HR noted, the make up water does make a difference. A good hydronic contractor will include pre (cleaning and rinsing) and post (corrosion inhibitors and pH buffers) installation water treatment as a part of their installation package, and will check and augment chemicals as needed during annual maintenance requirements.

    The days of calling the oxides "Black Gold" are long gone. Systems have changed and so have the requirements for maintaining water quality. People that cut corners by using non barrier tubing need to be educated first, and if they refuse to comply (AHJ should be responsible to checking to see what was used) and if it complies then criinal actions need to be taken. Chances of THAT happening are slim to none, so the responsibility falls to the installing contractor to make the right decisions. Maybe some day, we will be graced with having a "hydronic" license, but there will still be people doing dumb things.

    The next scourge we will see (it's already happening) is the influx of chlorides into well water, which causes stainless steel components to fail at an accelerated rate. The chlorides are form the highway department use of magnesium chloride for road de-icing. No cheap solutions for that problem, short of a reverse osmosis water treatment system, or using non stainless steel components (think glass lined steel DHW tanks etc)…

    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    IronmanPC7060
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 2,274

    We don't know what the system was filled with, if it had been flushed to remove all CI residue, if there has been a significant amount of makeup water, or several other factors. I could show you dozens of low temp radiant systems with non-barrier PEX that are clean as a whistle after a decade of service, but could also show dozens of high temp systems with oxygen barrier PEX that look like this. There is a lot more to it than just the oxygen barrier, and I'd be willing to bet this same system would have still been full of yuck if they'd used barrier tubing. Not saying I'd ever intentionally use non-barrier tubing for heating, but it's really not as big of a deal as some of you make it out to be- IF installed properly.

    bjohnhy
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    I think DI cartridges will remove chlorides. I suspect a lot depends on the concentration.

    Purified water is not so expensive to purchase for small residential systems. In 5, 30 or 55 gallon containers.

    I have not used this Axiom product. The kit with the cleaner, conditioner, filter makes sense.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • LMacNevin
    LMacNevin Member Posts: 18

    In case anyone was wondering, the oxygen barrier material used on most, if not all, PEX and PE-RT is the material EVOH, which is also used as an oxygen barrier in food packaging and thousands of other products. A layer thickness of less than 1 mm (0.004") is generally all it takes to make an effective barrier on pipe.

    Not promoting one particular brand of EVOH, but this webpage contains some good technical information about it. https://eval.kuraray.com/products-services/about-eval-evoh/eval-at-a-glance/

    bjohnhy