I need a new tank due to rot. Is Roth the way to go?
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"Oil will not rot out a steel oil tank but water will" ….. Someone once told me …
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I am curious: How expensive is an ultrasonic tank inspection, and how reliable is it to detect a pinhole?
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I honestly have no idea what an ultrasonic inspection costs — it's part of the deal with my oil company.
However. It is not intended to find a pinhole leak — and it won't. What it does, and all it does, is measure the thickness of the steel. The idea is that for a leak — such as a pinhole — to develop, the steel must be significantly wasted (thinned) by corrosion over a significant area. If you happen to measure at a VERY thin spot, then maybe it will be a pinhole shortly. But you don't want to get anywhere near there — and 50% wastage is taken as a pretty good guess.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
I would think since water is heavier than oil the water is on the tank bottom. Some time back they switched from end outlet tanks to bottom outlet 275s.
In addition to that the tank is supposed to be pitched low on the outlet end so even though most of the water in a tank comes from condensation there should be very little water.
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▲▲▲▲ Another reason for not drawing from the top of the tank.
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I have heard about this trick, slightly elevating the "rear" legs. So this would cause any water to collect close to the spigot? The theory being, that the water gets piped into the oil feed, and thus not accumulate? Would the burner be able to handle being fed some water?
I expect the burner would lock out. OTOH using an emulsifier additive, and evenly distributing the emulsified water in the entirety of the tank content, I can imagine that may work… The additive I have on hand (Hotshot) actually contains an emulsifier.
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As to some very informative comments above, I too have an indoor 10 gauge 275 oil tank that's approx. 50 or more years old with bottom outlet and tank pitched low on outlet end. My quality oil company does Not provide ultrasounds. However, no sign of any leaking at the moment. When asked, the oil company told me the oil tank - though 275 -will only be filled to about 240 gallons for purposes of creating necessary space and I'm on "slow-fill". I do keep the steam boiler on during the summer - as did the previous owners - but turn down the temp. guage from 160 to 120, even though no heat is required; this was recommended for some unknown reason. I probably keep the tank about 1/2 full in summer. Oil filter changes 2x per year
Not that this enlightens the pros, just sayin
Regards,
RTW
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Roth Does not have a 30 year million dollar warranty. They have a 30 year warranty against defects in material and workmanship. and a million dollar warranty for to years to cleanup a spill resulting from a defect in material and workmanship. and they never had to pay for a cleanup since the inner tank never leaks in the first ten years as a result of a defect in material and workmanship. (As far as I know to date).
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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The tank does not leak, until it does. Do you plan on waiting until then? At that point, if you are lucky, it is a pinhole, and you notice it. Maybe you can put a Rectorseal patch on it, and informally clean up the small amount that leaked, no record of the incident. That is your best case scenario. The patch then buys you enough time to line up a replacement. A worse scenario is a non-trivial leak, either because you do not notice it immediately, or it is a bigger hole. There is really no way to anticipate which way it will go.
What is the possible upside to waiting? Maybe, you get more time out of your current tank. What will be your trigger to start thinking about replacement? Most likely, a leak. Possibly, trying to sell the house and a prospective buyer asking for the tank to be replaced ?
A slow fill or partial fill are strictly feel-good measures, and do not really protect you in a meaningful way. Do the people who advise you on taking these half measures offer to cover the cleanup, if it leaks anyway? I did not think so. Let me try to outline the kind of exposure you currently risking:A house that has a record of environmental cleanup will become a difficult sell, and I predict will take a significant hit on its equity. Be aware, that once you report an oil leak to any authority (e.g. local fire department) you may lose the discretion you may have had, on which way the cleanup will go.
Your home insurance company and mortgage provider may find out about your leak. It is not impossible the house insurance will get cancelled proactively because "the underwriter decided not to have anything to do with you, they are worried about their interest in your house". Having no homeowners policy, you will be in violation of your mortgage agreement…which usually requires you to maintain such.
It is not as far fetched as it sounds, I speak from personal experience. At one time I had a termite problem, and simply asked my homeowners provider if if was covered under my policy. Next thing I know, I get a letter from them "it came to our attention…" and threatening to yank my policy unless I remedied the issue pronto.I would consider start working on a tank replacement on my terms to avoid this kind of exposure. The tank lasted longer than they usually do. I hazard a guess, if you give the matter some thought, you probably would not want this potential problem hanging over your head.
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@mrcoder I’m not dealing with a leak thankfully but the situations like the one you talked about have crossed my mind and are why I’m thinking of going to Roth. I have a couple steel 275s with the oldest nearing 30 years old and I’m getting quotes to replace.
I saw earlier up you mentioned you have 2 x 400s. I could probably get away with a single 400 but my tanks already have separate fills and a common vent that are up to code, so I’m trying to figure out right now if it’s worth having the two 275s. My reasons for a single 400 would be taking up less space, less suction line connections, and there’s only a small difference in capacity between 2 275 and a 400. But I’m wondering how you have liked your setup with the 2 400s? Did you end up going with overhead lines?
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Yes , the tank needs to be pitch down to the valve . A 1/4" pitch works best , A 1" difference between leg lengths will give you that . I recommend 12" and 13" legs , high enough to pipe in a filter or add an accessible drain if going top feed . The higher the better for outside to prevent collection of leaves and trash which can rot the tank from the outside .. The outside tank oil line should not have water traps in its bend where water can collect and freeze .. Use floor flanges ..
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The 500 gallon Highland Fuel Hopper or Petro Hopper would be excellent replacement for your existing tanks as they are a round tank within a tank with a 2 inch fill fitting vent.
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The single 400 will be obviously cheaper than 2x275. My reason for going with 2x tanks: I use a bit less than 800 gallons total yearly, so I can get by with filling up once or twice per year, timing the purchase when the oil is cheapest. One disadvantage of the 400 Gallon Roth tanks: If you want to use an Ultrasonic tank level monitor, it will not work on the 400-s, because of a reinforcing internal beam that will be in the way.
If you go with Roth, I have never heard one plumbed with a bottom feed, I think it would be difficult to modify it for that, and I expect this would void the warranty. As it is shipped, it has a seamless internal and external containment vessel, this integrity would need to be compromised by drilling into both vessels for a gravity feed.
My overhead supply is set up with the current overhead Roth feed kits, 1/2" copper (straight) pickup pipes run into a Y joint. From the Y joint, a single 3/8" line runs into a Tigerloop. Not too many connections, and most of those are flare. If those are done with care, air leaks should not be an issue. The only weak point I have is the flex tubes that connect the tigerloop to the pump. Here, a high quality pipe dope needs to be used ( Gasoila soft set Ptfe or EK, or similar), and it is critical that the Tigerloop side needs to be tightened first, to avoid twisting the lines. I mention this because after a few years I had trouble with this (the nuts loosened up because of the line trying to un-twist itself) , I went through several months of stress and expense troubleshooting the resulting air leaks and lockouts.1 -
Appreciate "mrcoder" advice and well explained. Are indoor 10 guage tanks still made in USA and available? My thought is still to monitor tank since 10 gauge steel made back in the day - before controlled obsolesce was common - seems bullet proof if properly installed. My 50 + year old American Standard boiler operates flawlessly and I understand from this site the new stuff has a little bit better life span than the average dishwasher or refrigerator made today ; both in boilers and oil tanks
My local oil company does not provide ultrasound testing - I asked so I could evaluate any weak spots and have to do further research. If tank tests well, then maybe its a keeper
Many thanks,
RTW
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There are also heating oil additive treatments in a bottle, some of which claim to "disperse" water. Don't know whether or not they actually work, but I figure it's worth spending $15 a year on the chance that they do, especially since we got two new tanks a few years ago at significant expense, and I'd like them to last as long as possible.
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@mrcoder thanks for the insight! Good to know about making the TigerLoop connections first.
I certainly wouldn’t use any non top feed configuration, the reason I was asking about an overhead line is because I’ve seen some installations where the line is run from the top of the tank, down to the floor and then along the floor.
Right now my supply lines (3 burners) are run along the floor and are sleeved and encased in mortar, so they meet local code. Since TigerLoops are needed anyway, I was inclined to go with brand new oil lines run overhead but one contractor had offered the possibility of reusing the existing supply lines, so that’s why I was curious about your experience. I’m not sure if reliability is improved at all by keeping the existing non overhead setup.0 -
I had my supply lines run encased in cement on the floor originally. When my contractor did the Roth installation, they removed the old lines, and run new lines overhead. I did not ask at the time, but my impression was that running the lines overhead was preferable for some reason. Maybe someone here has better information why that may be.
Whether the line is run overhead or on the floor does not really make a difference reliability-wise. It makes some difference if the setup is gravity fed, or suction induced. If correctly done, a suction induced "overhead feed" works just fine, but it is sensitive to poorly done connections, ie. air leaks. Because you have a few inches of negative pressure on the line all the time, a loose or cracked flare joint may let in enough air to cause "loss of prime", and nuisance burner lockouts.
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Hello oil2025,
The RACOR 500FG Turbine fuel filter will remove the water as it enters the filter housing by centrifuging the water and dirt out of the oil flow where it passes through the stationary centrifuge vanes and impacts the walls of the clear poly carbonate bowl base and then the dirt and water drop to the bottom of the sediment bowl and the dirt and water can be drained without losing the prime or becoming air locked. The 500FG filter cartridges are rated for 10,000 gallons of filtration between filter cartridge changes.
I neglected to mention in my last post that the petrometer fuel gauge system can be installed remotely or outside with the petro hopper or fuel hopper to keep track of the tanks oil level.
A highland petro hopper or fuel hopper can be purchased with a tank mounted fuel level gauge as well if desired. There are enough top tapping's in these tanks to allow for a 2 pipe system.
The 500FG Turbine fuel filter will filter 60 gallons of fuel per hour during continuous use for you with your three burner system eliminating 3 separate filters.
The 3 fuel filter cartridge micron rating sizes used in the RACOR 500FG turbine series fuel filters are 2 micron, 10 micron and 30 micron filtration.
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I was looking around for pricing, and further info on Racor. Sounds interesting but my first impression is that it is primarily for diesel fuel systems for boating and trucking, maybe for larger systems for rental properties,
priced accordingly.Is there any experience/feedback with their low end systems actually being used for single home heating systems? I imagine, it might make sense if it was not too outrageously priced.
I expect, if any additives with water emulsifiers are in use, the water separator would not work, as the water would be then present as tiny droplets, and would refuse to settle out.
The water would have to be de-emulsified first, right?Does it also get rid of air in the line, like the Tigerloop does?
The "3 filters" means it is available with a 2, 10 or 30 micron filter option, correct?0 -
Mrcoder, you have to decide whether you want to spend good money for a RACOR 500FG fuel filter and its worldwide proven dependability and reliability.
If you do not want to spend good money for a world proven dependable fuel filter system that can be used for home heating fuel it is only as good the piping that feeds the fuel to the filter that is up to you. If your feed piping is the weak link you need to fix or replace it with better piping.
Now for more detail;
Paragraph 1;
You can use a RACOR 500FG fuel filter for kerosene without hesitation or worry. All it requires is the drop in filter cartridge and 2 o-ring's one for the metal lid and the other for the T handle that closes the lid air tight.
I have a RACOR 500FG with 10 micron filters mounted on my dual fuel coal stoker boiler.
Prior to purchasing my dual fuel coal stoker boiler I used the RACOR 500FG as a kerosene filter system for my Buderus LOGANA G205 oil fired boiler with its 30 year old Riello burner which I no longer use as I could no longer buy parts for.
I stopped burning kerosene 8 years ago because suburban propain let me run out of fuel 4 years in a row.
When I can no longer manage burning coal anymore I will start burning oil again as by that time I will have to replace the existing 35 year old Highland oval 275 gallon tank with a round Highland petrohopper as the existing tank has been empty for almost 9 years.
I replaced my filter twice because the oil tech they(suburban) sent almost broke the threaded gasketed lid and T handle 500FG filter body because he was not paying attention to how it was removed BY HIM.
Paragraph 2;
The water droplets will settle out just like they do diesel fuel.
The fuel is pulled through the filter housing by the oil/fuel pump just like the oil burner pump.
The stationary turbine blades centrifuge the oil and water as it enters the fuel filter and the water will be expelled outward and impact the polycarbonate bowl and just fall by gravity to the bottom of the bowl above the manual drain.
Paragraph 3;
The water droplets impact the polycarbonate bowl and just trickle down to the bottom of the bowl.
Pagragraph 4; no, it does not remove the air in the fuel oil, an air tight fuel delivery system just as those used on diesel engines avoids that. The tiger loop will still be needed if you have entrained air as a continuous problem but it should be installed before the 500FG fuel filter.
Paragraph 5;
The same single filter canister can be equipped with 2, 10 or 30 Micron filtration cartridges or a larger FG unit can be purchased with multiple filters of the same micron size in one unit.
These filters have been in use for 5+ decades worldwide.
I guess you have to decide what your sanity is worth; my maintenance work with these RACOR fuel filter systems was enough to convince me they were what I wanted and needed for my kerosene heating oil system as suburban propain was not helping me in any case.
You can purchase a RACOR500FG and the needed fittings from an over the road truck repair shop or very large boat service/marine engine service center.
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I was talking about emulsified water. Some oil additives contain surfactants, and/or bivalent additives, which are all designed to keep water in suspension. In such case, the emulsification has to be reversed before coalescing and settling of water can take place. Emulsification is commonly reversed by adding some demulsifier agent. My point was, that some oil additives will interfere with the work of a water separator, so it is best not using oil additives, if a water separator is being used.
Without an emulsifier, condensation water will coalesce, and collect in the bottom of the tank.
For suction fed systems, the suction point is usually a few inches from the tank bottom, and it takes decades to accumulate enough condensation water on the bottom to reach the altitude of the suction line, so I would not expect condensation water being sucked into the burner to be a problem with these.Gravity fed systems are a different story, although it was my impression that oil additives that emulsify the water are a good enough solution for these, esp indoors. I could be totally wrong on this.
My setup is suction fed (overhead line) , so I dont think a water separator makes sense for me. Unless, of course my understanding is not correct. My tanks are still new, but I will check with water indicator paste how much water is accumulating in the bottom one of these days.
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I know you were talking about emulsified water. Diesel fuel is treated with additives, the water is still removed and settled out whether it is in a suction or gravity fed fuel system with a RACOR 500FG turbine filter every time the fuel is pulled or pushed.
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Lets talk about condensation, emulsification, and what emulsified water does to your burner.
Should we use oil additives to disperse any water that forms dues to tank condensation? What if we don't do anything?Condensation is the primary source of water for home heating oil tanks, the water collecting in the bottom of the tank. How much water?
Credit is due to EdTheHeaterMan, who posted typical 275 G outdoor tank condensation rates in the "Tank slope.." thread. For an indoor tank, it will likely be less.Depends on the tank size, shape, and how full it is, but we can say it is on the order of magnitude of 1 tbsp per month per tank, probably less. How much does accumulate if nothing is done, over time? Given that 1G==256 tbsp. accumulation is ~12 tbsp per year, we can say it will take at least 20+some odd years to get to a gallon of water sitting at the bottom of the tank. For a top feed tank, where the intake is 4" from the bottom. In 30 years there will not be enough water in the bottom to reach the intake. So in this case, freezing up, or sucking up water is not going to be an issue. This is an advantage of top feed. Note, the water should be removed in some way, because of algae growth, which causes other problems.
An oil additive, which contains emulsifiers (e.g. hotShot) is put into the tank before fill. Dosage should be based on the expected amount of oil to treat. The initial dose is based on the tank capacity, follow up dose is based on the amount of expected fill.
Putting the additive in first is important because the act of filling the tank agitates the oil in the tank, causing the all water at the bottom to go into suspension. ( given the quantities we are mentioning here).
When the water is in suspension, it is present as stabile, tiny droplets that tend to not settle out. Some additive, and agitation are both needed to help this process. All water that is present at the tank at the time of the fill gets emulsified, so there will be no year-to-year accumulation. The additive contains some biocide, that prevents algae as well..What happens to the droplets of water? Unlike sucking up water per se, the presence of these small number of tiny droplets are not enough to kill the flame. The water droplets, along with the oil, get chopped into really tiny droplets by the nozzle. When the oil droplets burn, the water droplets turn into steam, and get exhausted. The effect is a slight lowering the temperature of the burn. This turns out to be Not A Bad Thing, it actually decreases NoX emissions, and increases the burn efficiency.
Don't take my word for it:
https://pubs.aip.org/aip/acp/article-abstract/3169/1/040130/3335046/Influence-of-emulsion-water-in-diesel-fuel-on-the?redirectedFrom=fulltextTop feed + water dispersing oil additive -> no need to worry about condensation water in home heating oil.
Additives, applied at every fill, work for bottom feed tanks as well.Based on the above, if you use an additive, [I think] adding a water separator to a home heating system is overkill. If you have a lot of water coming in (e.g. rainwater, or being in a marine environment)
that is a different story. At least, that is my take.0 -
Note that the Highland tanks may be suboptimal where footprint space is limited ( e.g. indoors in a basement) because of their girth. Residential tanks such as the Roth are made so that they can pass through 36" doors.
The Cylindrical Highland tanks may be too wide to fit through such doors. Something to keep an eye on if you decide to go that way.0 -
A passive water separator like the RACOR 500FG that can filter down to 2 micron is cheap insurance that just sits there like a steel compression tank hung in a basement ceiling joist creating the pressure gradient in a hot water heating system.
The Highland petrohopper, fuel hopper and waste oil hopper were designed to be left out of doors and vented using an 8 foot vertical vent pipe as well as the emergency vent.
These tanks also have grounding lugs attached to the top weldment of the tank that allow the end user to drive an 8 foot long grounding rod into the soil and attach a bare copper 4-0 ground cable to it as well.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————-All oil burners except for the old gravity fed drip feeders in the old railroad cabooses are suction fed. The modern oil burners are still creating the needed negative pressure gradient to move the fuel from the tank to burner for them to work.
Airport operators/private jet flying companies have to drain a great deal of water off the bottom of thier fuel tanks as water is heavier than av gas or jet fuels. A couple of years ago the local family owned jet service that refuels the inbound intercontinental jets as well as their own fleet was draining water off the bottom of the jet fuel tank at the county airport and it got away from them and they had a large mess that overflowed their tank barriers-not good.
There are companies and individuals that offer filtration of water and oil out of all types of fuel oil tanks if they are exterior tanks. They bring a filtration cart that has sediment filters and water separators and they have a per gallon charge based solely on the size if the tank.
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I guess you are right if you want to be technical about it. I meant top feed, like the Roth, vs bottom feed (the common hookup with a spigot). The former is suction based, and the later is gravity assisted. I often see folks call the bottom fed "gravity fed" here on the forum.
Referring back to the OP, an outside tank would not appeal to me, unless I had no other option. For one thing, I consider it an eye sore. Plus, it is exposed to the cold and the elements. Also, I prefer a rust proof Poly internal tank vs. steel, even if it is a double wall setup. Airport or similar large outdoor fuel storage tanks obviously have different problems than the typical residential heating oil storage tanks, which is what we are discussing.
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Oil tank farms are exposed to the elements and are designed to cope with them whether they have solid or floating tank roofs, they cannot cope with lightning though.
The oil you buy whether it is 1-K or 2-K Kerosene or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5L, 5H or 6 Fuel Oil is stored outside and exposed to temperature swings.
One man's ugly oil tank is another man's way of doing business. The round Highland exterior tanks can be painted to blend in with the landscape in a residential setting. Oil tanks placed outside in containments are an insurance companies happy way of doing things and one less way of becoming a fuel source in the event of a house fire caused by fuel spills, improperly stored combustables, spontaneous combustion, lightning, electrical, arson, off gassing, propain or a rug rats playing with lighters and long curtains.
The same can be said with exterior propain tanks as they have fuse plugs that vent the propain gas in the event of a fire. All propain storage tanks have fuse plugs that vent in the event of a fire.
No, things that are not ment to catch fire are not supposed to catch fire, but they do, and they add to the fuel load in a structure fire as they say in the forest service.
An oil tank that is in a basement is a fuel source that can be consumed in the event of a full structure fire and only add to the heat and fumes if the fire becomes large enough to create a flash over that can and will consume the oxygen that is in the structure that will be replaced by more fuel oxygen in the atmosphere surrounding the fire.
I think it was in the village of Camillus, New York over 2 decades ago that suffered a house fire that killed 2 volunteer fire fighters when the homes floor caved in to the basement.
This new home was in tract development with all new homes that were constructed with oriented strand board and engineered lumber. Both of these new age building materials use massive amounts of resin glue to use the waste wood products that would otherwise be used for boiler hog fuel.
The fool owner in this specific home stored paint and other combustables in the basement of the home.
The fire started in the basement and weakened the engineered lumber trusses and oriented strand board sheathing in the first floor of the home. The volunteer fire company had no idea as to what the homes construction consisted of.
As they began attacking the fire from the interior the floor gave way and continued burning due to the off gassing of the oriented strand board, engineered lumber and resin glues used to manufacture these engineered lumber components.
The volunteer fire fighters died as a result of the fire due to the structural failure of the home in question, blunt force trauma, the lack of water and the envelope of the home becoming fulling involved eliminating any chance of rescue or immediate containment.
No, it was not supposed to happen, but if paint, solvents or rags are stored improperly by not storing them in fire resistant fuel lockers or sealed rag containers and not in a basement they are still subject to the fire triangle and spontaneous combustion and as a result a cascade event can and will occur unless a fire sprinkler system is present and properly maintained.
Perhaps, If all the engineered lumber had been painted with three coats of fire resistant latex paint before it was used things and the fool homeowner had stored all this flammable material in a fuel storage locker in a garage with the proper grounding and the fusible vent plug and any if oil soaked rags were soaked in the proper fire resistant spring operated fire resistant rag container things could have been different.
The combination of engineered lumber, resin glues, off gassing, spontaneous combustion and a continuous available fuel source made for a deadly combination that night. The village changed their building codes after this from what I remember of it.
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I think this horse is dead.
The OP asked if Roth was the way to go, a few of us expressed opinions and arguments pro or con. I think there is enough information in this thread now for folks to make up their own minds which way to go. I think I was clear of preference, for inside storage for a residence.
I think A Roth tank with a Tigerloop, and periodic Heating oil additive use is a reasonable solution. Just my personal view, I have nothing more to add, unless someone posts a specific question if I can answer it.0 -
Just one follow-up to mrcoder: What additive would you recommend for a 275 gal 10 gauge steel, bottom feed, in basement oil tank. Ive never used any and oil company and service tech. never mentioned it?
Regards
RTW
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HEET, 9-1-1, HOT 4-in-one are fuel treatments that you can use.
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I happen to be using Comstar Superheat, but not religious about that brand. My selection was based on per gallon price, and the key ingredients for me are the water dispersant, and the biocide. It has some other ingredients, e.g. anti-gel, although for an in-house tank that is probably not critical. My main concern is just to get rid of condensation water, and prevent algae. Works best if you add it before fill.
I started looking at various biocides, and notice that the Comstar I am using does not contain any. Actually, the "oil additive" and "biocide" tends to be 2 separate products.
I will do a separate post on various biocide options. You may have to use a dispersant like the Comstar and a biocide.
I have never actually run a test, I probably should. I assume the water dispersant works as advertised. Pretty basic chemistry, nothing exotic.
The test would be: "Check the amount of water at the bottom of the tank with a test stick, and water detecting paste, before and after adding the additive and fill, see if the water at the bottom actually decreased".
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Ridiculous for residential use. The 285 gallon PetroHopper tank wholesale price is $8995. Add in installation, pouring a concrete pad and that’s just not practical.
Do you sell these tanks?
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NO, I do not sell these tanks, Highland tank distributors do, so that should answer your question.
I guess someone building a $400,000.00 final cost with interest home looking for heating oil storage would have to decide whether having a proven heating oil storage system with a full containment tub is worth as much or more than the cost of a massive remediation for a heating oil spill 30 years later that leaks into the ground water than a $$$$$$$ insurance claim and fines from the NYSDEC.
So, lets start with this;
an 8 by 8 foot "WET" 8,000-pound sand mix reinforced mesh concrete slab was poured using an above grade pressure treated 2 by 6 frame with corner angle clips and then vibrated to eliminate air bubbles in the sand mix and then covered with covered straw and kept wet for a week while it cured.
Begin by removing 32 cubic feet of top soil.
1.3 cubic yards of 8,000 pound sand mix concrete.
64 square feet of reinforcing mesh and 140+ feet of 1/2 rebar laid on one foot centers in a grid pattern.
sixteen 3-foot long pieces of 1/2 rebar pounded into ground used to hold the form in place.
four corner clips.
four 2" by 6" by 8" pressure treated planks.
I sheet of plastic vapor barrier laid in multiple layers before the form is placed.
2 cubic yards of crushed stone base leveled for form placement.
3 bales of straw laid on concrete when it begins to set to hold moisture.
The slab is heavily watered every day for over a week to slow the rate of cure which as result strengthens it even further.
100+ feet of plastic coated oil delivery pipe for a top fed 1 pipe system buried in a trench to new home foundation and then to heating system.
The tank is placed on the cured slab and the 8 foot ground rod is driven into the ground and the 4-0 grounding cable secured is bolted to the grounding lug on the tank and then the clamp on the grounding rod. The tank vent and vent pipe is installed in the roof of the tank and the tank gauge is installed and the tank ready for kerosene fuel.
The tank is filled and the kerosene is ready to be fed to the burner.
$$$$ for the slab excavation, concrete work, ground rod and 4-0 copper cable; $$$$ with tax plus delivery for the complete tank.
$$$$ rounded for the complete installation of a 285 gallon fuel tank for a $400,000.00 home with a 30 year mortgage.
Lets use a 40 year life span for the tank which amounts to 14,600 days in life cycle costing for an $$$$ installation which equals $x.xx per day versus a ground water pollution claim of $$$$$$$ that may not be covered by insurance. A one time expense of $$$$ versus the potential future expense of $$$$$$ plus interest for a ground and surface water pollution claim that an insurer may not cover and your heirs may be held accountable for seems like a better idea all around, but that is just my opinion
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@leonz, I dont think you are making a valid argument above, contrasting the installation cost of a Highland tank with the cost of a cleanup. A more reasonable compare would be against a similar size Roth tank. Which would be ~ half the money, and just as secure against a leak, if not more so, with its poly internal tank.
Am I missing something? What do you have against Roth?0 -
Another post on ol treatments, a bit better informed..
I started looking at various treatment options, esp. looking at what commercial ventures tend to do where condensation and biological growth would be a significant problem. E.g. on a container ship's fuel bunkers, army/navy, refineries, large farms, wholesalers. For these, condensation and bacterial growth could be a serious problem, so they have to use something that actually works, as opposed to feel-good measures.
I notice that the homeowner oriented products often do not contain any biocides.
Instead of focussing on trade names, let's go by active ingredients, I also give trade names for these.
The "big guys" tend to use:CMIT / MIT (aka Isothiazolone, trade name "Kathon"),
Morpholine, e.g. Power Service Bio Clean
Bezothiazol+thiocyanate: Bellicide
or FPPF Killem (same thing, cheaper, and readily available retail) ,
Gothamar,
Carbamate,
Boron.
The army actually did a study which concluded recommending Isothiazolone or Morpholine based products for initial "disinfection", and then any old fuel additive for maintenance. https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA271496.pdfBefore you go out and spend money, ask your oil supplier if they already dose the oil you buy with a biocide. Quite possibly, they do and you are just wasting your money.
The second thing to check: Do you actually have a biological growth problem? If your tank is new, maybe not.
A home owner oriented heating oil additive with water dispersal +anti-gel is a reasonable move in any case.
For an older tank, esp. if tested positive for biological growth, or has accumulated noticeable condensation water:an initial dose of biocide. E.g. Bellicide or Killem. Curative dose is 2.5oz per 100 Gallons, costs about $6-$12 per 100 Gallons. After the initial biocide treatment, I think you can just use a dispersant additive on a regular basis, which is cheaper. This approach is based on the Army study, initial disinfection, and then ongoing maintenance (which is just intended to keep water dispersed).
Note that a biocide treatment may dislodge slime or crud sticking to your tank walls or sitting at the bottom, and will end up clogging your filters after treatment. So expect having to change filters after treatment.2 -
Thanks again @mrcoder for sharing your research on additives. The timing was good because I think I’ve finally decided to go with the 2 Roth tanks I was referring to earlier in the thread, so I had been considering whether an additive would be needed.
My system has been relatively trouble free, I think partly because water can be eliminated through the bottom feed, so I was thinking an annual treatment if going with Roth might be a good idea, to keep the sludge under control.
Is there anything to watch out for regarding the Roth warranty if using additives?0 -
I thoughts about this are simply 30 plus years down the road anything can happen, and a tank might get knocked over in a car or truck wreck if its outside in just one scenario or if the ground fails/landslide/sinkhole under the tank/heat from a forest fire, lightning among others.
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@oil2025
I am not aware of any additive issues with the Roth tanks, but I will dig up my warranty tomorrow and look through.Ask what your oil supplier has/puts in their oil, it is quite possible that it has additives in it already. It would not surprise me if the refinery added some, and the wholesaler also, to prevent biologicals during storage.
It would be useful to know if they did, and when. The "when" is important because biocides lose efficiency over time. I expect your oil vendor knows a bit about oil additives and tank maintenance, safe storage is an important part of their business, right?With a brand new tank, you may not need a biocide disinfect for quite a while, unless you transfer your old oil from the current tanks. Where I am at, it is common for the tank installers todo this. Some filter it during pumping, some dont, but there is a chance that the old oil has some residual dispersed biologicals in any case.
My current thinking: I use a maintenance dose of non-biocide additive at every fill, based on the fill amount (the initial dose was based on what I had in the tank at the time). I figure this way I maintain a constant concentration of the maintenance dose, and keep water from accumulating. In mycase, I only fill 2x a year so it is not too much hassle.
In all honesty, treatment should be "evidence based", we should test how much water is at the bottom of the tank. There are tests for the presence of biologicals, I dont know much about these. Disinfecting a tank, and then checking the filter(s) would be a rational way to assess whether you needed the treatment in the first place, although it is a bit putting the cart after the horse.
If anybody has experience with oil quality testing, please chime in!
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@Leonz: The reason I am saying your comparing the cost of the cleanup to the cost of installing a specific brand tank is flawed, because it presents the dilemma as if those were the only 2 options.
If we want to stick to the theme of this thread, the scenario we are discussing: Assume the decision was already made to replace an existing tank. Given that, it is fair to take the cleanup off the table.
Accidents, doomsday scenarios equally apply to any brand of outdoor tank, so those can also be taken off the table. The discussions (should be) about : should the replacement tank be a Roth, or maybe something else.I propose that most of the residential storage tanks are inside of the house. If that option is available, it is IMO preferable, to avoid problems with: extreme condensation, weathering, outdoor specific risks such as colliding with some vehicle, visual appeal, flow problems in cold weather, the extra cost of site prep… etc.
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Anything is possible,
if a tank ruptures because the vent pipe is plugged, the whistle does not whistle, the 2 inch feeder valve does not does shut off until the oil backs up the pipe and all the while the whistle still does not whistle what will the homeowner or their insurer say then; WHOOOPSIE? The benefit of equal pressure gradients for the feed pipe and vent pipe while refueling are not there.
if you look at the vertical vent pipe whistles for gas stations there is very good reason they are where they are and elevated as high as they are.
I think I stated my case for the above well enough to make any liability insurer and their battalions of actuary commandos happy as the installed cost is spread over 30-40 or 50 years. It adds value to the property and property insurance cost is reduced and it can be painted with floral designs and or and shrubbery like Blue Phitzer Junipers planted around it.
There is nothing wrong with being risk averse.
Having been through this with an inexperienced oil tech 45 years ago that told me my in ground tank was full of water-which it was not, taught me trust but verify, the. I had the tank dug up and removed and it was full of No. 2 fuel oil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Needless to say, I was not at all happy and well, a very hard expensive (1982 dollars) lesson was learned. I had no access to natural gas so my options were few if any.
Nobody wins unless you know the odds are stacked in your favor, hence the desire to be risk averse.
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