boiler company ran new radiators with 2 inch line on a 3 inch line system
hi there, i have a one pipe stem system. all pipes running to radiators are 3 inch. i recently had 2 new radiators installed in one room and they ran a 2 inch line directly to the boiler. they originally tried connecting the radiators together and that didn’t work and then separated them. since then both of the radiators barely work and when the one is on it creates an air lock in the system. if they are both fully off i have air continuously blowing through the system. can anyone help, is the 2 inch causing air in the lines? or if both new radiators are on there’s no pressure at all. i have a video of the air blowing out the air release screw and its consistent and loud. i dont know what to do anymore. they came and added an air vent on the 2inch line and that did nothing.
it was a reliable company with union engineers.
Comments
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This sounds odd. We will need to see photos of what you're trying to describe. Mad Dog
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first photo is new 3 inch piping. second photo is piping into boiler. 3rd photo is the original 3inch piping out of boiler that runs the rest of house.
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new radiators
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one of those 2 pipes is capped in the first picture because they originally ran two pipes and then capped it.
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I'm assuming the pipe coming off of the tee on photo #2 is the new "2-inch" runout to the new radiators?
The problem is probably not one of pipe size, though the riser coming out of the floor to that radiator may be small. (Steel pipe is actually measured by the inside diameter and you may be looking at 2" and 1-1/2" piping)
There are major errors in the steam piping around the boiler. Though it may have worked in the past, it's not going to work with that new runout installed that way. You really need someone versed in steam design to help out in repiping this…It's not uncommon for mechanics to simply connect a new radiator to any steam-carrying pipe, as you would a water line, and expect the steam to find and follow it. Steam system design has to take much more into consideration, and configuration separate from the addition has a profound effect on its operation.
Where are you located?
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Myself, I am wondering if there actually "real" steam vents on these radiators??????????????????
Your statement about bleeding air out of the radiators is why I am asking this.
Would you be so kind as to post some pictures of the opposite ends of both radiators as they are not visible?
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Your near boiler piping is not even close to the diagram which is in the installation and operation manual for the boiler and proper near boiler piping is key to the efficient production of dry steam no if and or butts about it plain and simple like myself . As for only a 2 supply main to your new rads ,depending upon the edr of the new rads a would think a 2 inch main would be more then enough being a single pipe 2 inch main should be able to supply some where bout 90 k btu . As for the near boiler piping it leave alot to be desired and was most likely done by just a plumber /heating guy and not some one really has a clue about how to properly pipe a steam boiler and pricing does have some thing to do w it but the true lack of knowledge of your installer truly shows being its not that hard and ya don't have to be all to smart ya just need a clue and from the photos your contractor is clueless . Zero real header and a bull crap equalizer ,even though ya got a new boiler the near boiler piping is far from being proper .Your boiler will never produce truly dry steam or operate as intended ,who ever your installation company was or is they need to stop doing steam boilers being the install practices stink and from the workmanship they are clueless. Real steam installers use steel pipe cast iron fittings not cooper and construct a real steam header not connect two pipes . Personally you should demand they should come back and pipe it correctly as according to the installation and operation manual . Unless this was done extremely cheaply there's zero accuse for thrash work such as what you have . Its always more to repipe correctly then to install correctly from scratch . Was a permit pulled and a inspection performed by local inspectors if not you may be left w nothing but a poorly piped poorly performing steam boiler . where ever you are located check and see if a pro from this site is local and have them correctly install a proper header and near boiler piping or fight w the installer and have it re done at there $ usually they do zip and never return .
peace and good luck clammy
The sweetening of a lower price is forgotten after the bitterness of poor quality
R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
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It's hard to tell what was existing and what was added new, but for sure everything, new and old, is wrong.
If I am guessing right on what's new they did a counter flow 2" main which is fine, but it needed to come off the header and be dripped near the boiler.The problem is, you didn't have a header to start with so the boiler actually needed re-piped before anything could be done. If they knew steam, they should have seen this, it's super obvious. Since they added a main, did they add a main vent at the end? Without a main vent it would be expected that it won't heat properly.Ok, I went back and looked again. If the new piping is what goes through that access tunnel it looks like it was piped parallel flow, but the slope looks wrong. At the bare minimum the two pipes should not be at the same elevation as slope would dictate that is impossible. It also appears the feed is sloping up away from the boiler which would be proper for a counter flow, but incorrect for a parallel flow.
My honest answer, you need to find a new contractor, the one you are using should never touch steam, until they actually get educated on it.
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i paid $3500 it’s an extremely reputable company of union boiler workers. he’s been back 1000 times and is trying everything. i’m located in rochester ny if anyone is near here. he’s an incredible guy so i know he’s doing all he can to fix it. i’m just trying to help get the solution quicker because it’s been three weeks and im tired
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i’ve tried everything. there’s constant air the can be heard coming from the closet radiator to boiler. when the two new radiators are both on it air locks the system and tells it there enough pressure. when the 2nd new radiators farthest away is on it bubbles ones it gets to the bubble and can here clinking inside
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Couple things here.
Vents are supposed to let air out, hearing that means the vent is working. The problem is you might not have enough main vents in the basement, or no main vents at all. Something anyone that knows steam should know. The basement venting has to be proper before the radiator vents can be addressed for balance.
The piping on the boiler is wrong, no way to sugar coat that one. The existing piping needs redone, and what they added also needs redone. Honestly it's so bad, I'm not even sure if I could mark up the picture to show you how it needs to be, but I'll try. It's crude, but roughly what needs to happen. red is what goes away, blue is what it needs to be.
After it's piped properly then they need to skim the boiler to clean out all the oils, typically multiple times until it's clean and not surging. After that the main venting can be looked at for it's capacity and position to make sure it's adequate and properly placed. And finally the radiator venting can be addressed.
You mentioned the new radiators were piped as 2 pipe, can you post a pic of the other end of the radiator so we can see what they did? I see a supply valve, but curious what they did on the other end, and why they would do it as it makes no sense to me given you have a 1 pipe system.
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Effort without knowledge is wasted money. The workmanship confirms that your mechanic's problem is a lack of knowledge in steam system design. It has become your problem. Now you're wasting any more money you throw at this guy to "try things".
Look for a steam heating firm in this website's directory. There are some knowledgeable people servicing your area.
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so he said he was trying to avoid re-piping it because the system would have to be shut down and we won’t have heat for a couple hours. They did put extra venting in the basement last night going to those radiators, but they’re still constant air when bleeding the radiators and out of the radiators
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A couple hours? The repipe that is needed would take a professional an entire day, maybe more to complete. I doubt they are talking about the same repipe as I am, which is needed for sure. What you had before they installed the new was already wrong, their addition, to my eye, made it even more wrong.
Are the new radiators heating at all? Is this a lack of heat issue, or a vent noise issue. Just trying to clarify.
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I don't think that's the real reason they're avoiding it.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
he straight out told me he was hoping to make it work instead of repipe so we did lose heat for a day . he’s been honest. ur to answer one of the questions above only one of the new radiators are working when I second radiator on it makes the pressure in the system increase so much at the boiler that it shuts the entire boiler down and it bubbles when entering that pipe
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what do you think? The real reason they are avoiding it is?
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also all the vents in the house have access air coming out of them compared to normal
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Shutting down on pressure is either lack of main venting, or an oversized boiler, or both. In your case I'm going with oversized boiler since that is super common, but I'd speculate on venting too. The piping is making the whole situation much, much worse.
There is no magic wand, or hopes and prayers, there is right and what will work, versus wrong and what won't. The piping is wrong. Steam can be forgiving, but I think you've found the limit.
They don't want to repipe, because the amount of repiping needed will cost them and arm and a leg. He should be doing some of the repipe on his dime because it was his mistake, some of the rest would fall on the original installer, but I'm guessing they are long gone by now? Who did the original install? Same company?
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Because it's a lot of work and they don't know how to do it. The contractors on this site who I have come to know (even the ones I don't always agree with 100%) would refuse to even work on that boiler until it was agreed that they would re-pipe it correctly. There's just too much liability and customer dissatisfaction for them to put their reputation on the line for something piped like that.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
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Boxer. I'll be in the Rochester area toward the end of the month if you'd like a consultation. I help you guys straighten it out. DM me if you'd like. Mad Dog
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Dog is #1.
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In response to OP post, the problem may be reliance on "union engineers". Not a single pro on this site that I know of is Union, just sayin
Regards,
RTW
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Several of us are union and several have union shops. It's required on many jobs.
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the system was originally piped that way fir the whole house and when they installed the new boiler they did it to same piping and then the boiler was a bit over sized so the installer put smaller orphaces in. he left the state.
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I was union for my last 16 years of work.
Most union steam fitter and plumbers are used to working from a drawing or blueprint. If they don't get one you get what you get.
It doesn't mean they don't know how to put pipe together, but it is NOT their job to design anything. That is done by the engineer that designed the system, the company owner or a project manager.
If they get a job to install a boiler they will read the boiler manual with regard to the boiler install but will follow the drawing they are given as far as the piping goes. They are not paid to design in most cases that is how the union works there are exceptions in smaller shops.
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Most union shops have a staff engineer if they are doing design work. Apparently this job didn't have that input. There was lots of work there, but it wasn't designed properly.
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There's pne thing up there in the forest of comments which stands out to me — not including the plumber's nightmare of piping:
"constant air when bleeding the radiators and out of the radiators"
You don't bleed steam radiators. That is so fundamental that it calls into question the knowledge and understanding of any and all concerned. Sorry.
I would very much recommend that the OP get a copy of "We Got Steam Heat" — and the plumber a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and sit and read and understand for a while. Then go back and try again.
Or just tell us where you are and we might be able to help you find someone competent…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
to:
IN Response: Well said and explained in Ed's follow-up post on union steam fitters and plumbers on how the unions workers work along with "longbeach" too. I applaud union labor that does it right and get paid proper wages, but sadly in this posters case, the project lacked the "design professional " required as stated.
In my case, I educated myself from this site with Dan's books after finding No one knowledgeable in steam in area. I personally designed my steam system adding three new steam radiators - two on second floor that only had electric baseboard - and used a pipe fitter/ plumber to thread pipe to my design. To my previous installers chagrin (that i fired after his so called educated installation failed) my system design worked perfectly after some tweaking of vents and skimming boiler many times, just sayin
I observed and used the proven design of those radiators already working as a template to expand the system
Regards,
RTW
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P.S. I should add, the steam system in my home had, what I call access ports on the mains already installed - curiously - in the right places for me to add the piping to the two radiators needed for the second floor ( by accident or design I cant be sure, since it was installed in the fifties and the guy long since passed)
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supposedly his engineers were contact many times. and sent pictures and drawing. which made them come back and cut of the return pipe they put in and then add a vent which still didn’t work. when both new radiators are open the system shuts down before satisfied. none of it makes sense to me. i’m also not a boiler worker. he tried to say he things there’s another issue that arose with my system that has nothing to do with the work done. but my system was working perfectly fine prior. he said he would let me know tonight what the plan is. i heard him in my basement saying he wasn’t going to repipe everything and then he told me today he wasn’t trying to find a solution not to repipe it. he’s also a client of mine… so im in a hard place.
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i wrote which pipe is for what
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My #1 rule when I servicing steam is that if the near boiler piping is not installed correctly then the first course of action is to pipe it to the manufacturers near boiler specifications. You can't possible believe that your going to solve any boiler problem by having it piped wrong. it's like changing the oil in your car to fix the brakes.
So first thing first. Correct the near boiler piping. Any competent fitter could easily repipe that.
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what about the copper do i demand that be changed?
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If the plumber first installed the radiators with a return pipe,it's likely that the piping is too small for a single pipe configuration, which is another mistake that would need correction.
Proper practice is to use only black pipe in steam work. Copper will work in many places, though fittings will be prone to leaking in certain configurations as a result of expansion and contraction.You asked for advice and a common thread through each reply here is that you find a competent man to re-pipe the boiler correctly in compliance with the boiler manufacturer's instructions and proper piping practice.
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The "bleeder" that is on the radiator in the picture shows they don't know what they are doing. Its a bleeder for a hot water radiator.
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I’m a Proud Rochester resident with a steam boiler.
There’s only two Residential Union Companies in Rochester, NY - Rochester is traditionally the least unionized of NY’s cities. The one who I had used for a while (X Residential) did great work on common items like piping and annual service, but it was clear that they did not know residential steam when I realized they had raised my wet return above the water line and allowed steam to infiltrate and create massive water hammer along with telling me that I couldn’t control my radiators with TRVs - I’ve since set it up my control system that would be the envy of nearly any steam owner.
I’m not sure there is a good steam company in town - I’m lucky whoever installed my boiler Circa 2010 did a great job (I didn’t own the house yet and I wish I knew who did it). I have found that Triple O has a great mechanic, surprisingly young (like late-20s/early-30s) who does seem to know his maintenance stuff, but I don’t know how many installs he’s done.
Unfortunately, I am an engineer and smart home hobbyist, not a plumber/pipefitter otherwise I’d offer to help. Once you get your boiler properly piped, I’d be happy to help you control it. I’ve got my boiler keeping my house warm, only providing heat to the radiators that call for it, all without going over 0.5psi.
I’d take @Mad Dog_2 up on his offer to consult as there really isn’t anyone local. I almost wish I had a problem…
I’ll PM you with more details.
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Also, do you have one-pipe or two-pipe steam? I can’t tell from the posts. Two pipe steam would have a pipe of nearly the same diameter at both ends of the radiators and a little metal box (steam trap) on the side that doesn’t have the turn valve.
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the bleeder was in when i bought the house
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