How to avoid this again? Rust hole above water line burnham in4

skimmer

Last IN4 lasted 16 years.. Hope the new one lasts longer. Any suggestions?

Fill up the boiler in the summer to the top? Im thinking the condensation off the boiler being off for many months could have contributed??

Failure:

STEAM DOCTOR

Don't get a Burnham

Long Beach Ed

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1830577#Comment_1830577

Just what I wanted to say, but thought I'd be nice instead.

skimmer

too late….

EBEBRATT-Ed

Stay away from Burnham. The problem as I recall (I could be wrong maybe others will comment) is having flue gas on one side of the CI and no water only steam on the other side of the CI. That is where this boiler failed. They also mentioned Chlorides in the water.

skimmer

Maybe a class action suit will be coming around. If enough of these of failed compared to other brands.. I mean all my adjoining neighbors have different brands and Im the only one that has had a failure..

Same home layout, attached house, same builder, same EDR, same everything. Same city water.

My 3 adjoining neighbors, identical homes all have thier boilers still running. All installed within a year or two of my first burnham. None of failed. And I can tell you they can give 2 sh@ts about water levels, leaks, blowdowns, maintenance, hissing vents, frustrating.. The only difference.. 2 WMs and I think one is crown or dunkirk. One piped in all in copper too. Still running

Makes me feel like the car guy that babies his chevy with oil changes and all sorts of preventive maintenance and my engine cracks/blows and the neighbor with the honda who never gave a damn and barely does anything is still driving his honda around and I have to buy a new car. COME ON BURNHAM!!!!!

LRCCBJ

Maybe a class action suit will be coming around

You have my sympathies regarding Burnham. It's obvious that the CI utilized cannot make it 20 years.

But, you must start with the warranty. Does Burnham CLAIM, anywhere, that they warrant the boiler for 20 years? Most of them limit the warranty to 10 years and they pro-rate it.

I don't believe you can be successful in a class action if you try to use Weil-McClain longevity to support your argument. Burnham has absolutely no requirement to build a boiler that can match the longevity of one of their competitors. All they need to do is to honor their OWN warranty.

If you really want to see a scam, check out e-bay for the tankless water heaters. You can buy one, decent sized, for about $150. Want to see how that warranty goes for you?

skimmer

hahah. Buying something on eBay is much different then buying a boiler from heating pro and having it piped properly.

Besides boilers historically have been long lasting items. At least the old ones

Jamie Hall

All the bad-mouthing of Burnham does nothing to tell anyone why that type of corrosion occurs — and, for what little it's worth, I just recently saw that same type of corrosion failure in a Weil-McClain.

And I'm sorry I don't have a good answer for you. However, I have a suspicion that it may happen in boilers which do not have really thorough combustion gas circulation when starting (a design characteristic) and which are not run long enough to get the whole mass really hot. But that is a WAG with a vengeance.

Mark N

@skimmer, do a search for “what makes a steam boiler fail?” And read the article by Dan Hollahan

EBEBRATT-Ed

Burnham re designed the steam max and mega steam to so the flue gas was not on the opposite side of the CI where steam is. There also was chloride water issue which was prominent in MA & Rhode Island which is why they get a bad rap around here.

The problem around here was that for a period of time in the 90s & 2000s where their WATER Boilers wouldn't last 15 or 20 years without leaking. I know several schools with boilers installed in the early 2000s and they have all been replaced

skimmer

so the question remains. Why is this a burnham problem? It doesn’t seem like the other manufacturers are suffering this issue. Even with poor maintenance and make up water issues

LRCCBJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1830651#Comment_1830651

The only people who can possibly give you a proper answer on that is U.S. Boiler. And, I am fully confident that they have no intention of doing so!

Long Beach Ed

When Burnham's corrosion problem first surfaced around 2005, Mr. Glenn Stanton, U.S. Boiler Co.'s Application Engineer and Training Manager commented on the problem on this and other industry forums. Mr. Stanton passed on in 2016, but his words hold honest and valuable insight today into this issue and the dedication of his employer in identifying and rectifying the problem.

For anyone interested in more than just throwing stones, here are Mr. Stanton's words written for OilTechTalk eighteen years ago:

- —— -

"Regarding all of the exchanges that we have had over the past couple of years, I would like to clarify the results. As discussed in the past, you have had more than your share of… steam leakers due to internal corrosion. As also discussed, we have paid VERY close attention to this occurring out in the field and have taken several steps to find out why. We have taken water samples from several of the jobsites where this has occured as well as a real close look at the possible contributory things that the system itself can cause. I have discussed most of these things here and at other sites…

" ... We have been exploring the whys of this by sending engineers to your area and to a handful of other areas where this happened with greater frequency than anywhere else. We also brought several of these boilers back and sent them out to independent laboratories for analysis (a very expensive procedure I must add). Most of the people that monitor these sites can support me in saying that they may not see this happening in their geographical areas.

"With that in mind, we concentrated on what may be different about your geographical area than other areas where it does not happen. The one common denominator happens to be the water. It was not so much the water itself but what is in the water which ended up being higher than normal chloride levels. This is also something that we have been closely monitoring regarding stainless steel Indirect Heaters failing sooner than desired. With the indirects we began providing glass lined tanks to use where chloride levels are high. With the steam boilers the answer is now MegaSteam.

"What we did find is that in areas with higher than normal chloride levels a process was occurring within the steam dome of the boiler called "Temperature Induced Chloride Activated Graphitic Corrosion". This reaction is something that begins with high chlorides in the water and is accelerated by heat or contact of the vertical and upper horizontal surfaces in the steam dome with the flue gasses. It is the contact with the flue gasses that triggers this process and once the ball gets rolling you just can't stop it. Yes it happens with other brands of steam boilers as well but possibly less often for reasons I will explain.

"Now you ask, what is going to make the MegaSteam different than any other boiler out there currently being used for steam? The difference is the flue gas passageway design. This is a horizontal passageway three pass boiler where all contact with flue gasses is below the steam surfaces. There is absolutely no flue gas contact with the cast iron surfaces that have steam on the other side. If you take away the HEAT you no longer have "Heat Induced Chloride Activated Graphitic Corrosion".

"You also ask why this is not happening to some of the older boilers that have been out there for years and years as well as other brands of similar vertical pinned flue design. As far as the newer ones go, they are also susceptible but due to variances in exposed surfaces, pin location and iron thickness it just takes longer. They are all prone due to flue gasses being on the other side of the section walls and dome. As far as the older boilers are concerned, the wall thicknesses were much greater and the exchange of flue gas temperature was not as pronouced due to wider passageways and ribbed surfaces instead of pinned surfaces. In otherwords they just were not as darn efficient. Most of the flue gas temperature was simply going up the chimney.

"We also took a close look at the design of some of the much, much older boilers that have been out there operating on steam for say 50 to 100 years. Many of these had a common denominator as well. That common denominator is the rear outlet for flue gasses below the water level. They were of either 2-pass or 3-pass design, not very efficient due to the area of the passageways, but none the less below the water line. With all of this in mind we are now glad to introduce the MegaSteam boiler. It is the most efficient steam boiler out there and with protection from the Chloride Activated Corrosion by design....three pass flue gas flow. The testing we have done with this has shown no signs whatsoever of the trigger that starts the chloride corrosion process rolling......heat. That's why we are also the first company to step up to the plate with a warranty that covers internal corrosion.

"Keep in mind that even with the MegaSteam system issues such as uninsulated mains, lack of venting and unmonitored excessive water makeup still have to be paid attention to. We address this in the I&O manual and even go as far as to show a water meter installed on the makeup water line in the I&O drawings. Sorry for the longer than lengthy post and explanation, but I thought you were entitled to it…

— Glenn Stanton Manager of Training Burnham Hydronics - U.S. Boiler Co., Inc. 2006

Steamhead

But when we talk about putting gas burners in MegaSteams, Burnham/US Boiler throws a fit………………….

EBEBRATT-Ed

Like I said above Chlorides and flue gas passages. A lot of the old Smith Boilers were "down draft" 650, 450, 350 etc all had the flue outlet down low.

I am glad I remembered what Glen posted years ago.

Does not explain why their hot water boilers failed miserably in our area as well.

I see no good reason for Burnham not to approve a power gas burner in the Mega Steam but that is their issue if they want to lose market share. Makes no sense.

But then what boiler MFG ever listens to the installers or service technicians? Not many MFGs do.

This type of corrosion can happen with a lot of boilers it's not just Burnham. But for some reason it is or was more prevalent in their designs. It was certainly prevalent around here.

skimmer

did they redesign or change anything in the independence series then?

Mark N

No, their redesigned gas boiler is the Steam Max.

skimmer

well I guess I have 12 years left on this one

Grallert

It's a drag but I think the only real option is to have your water tested and maintained a couple of time a year depending on how much make water you go through.

Mark N

In the manual for Independence Burnham states like only 1 gallon of make up water a year for an IN-4.

109A_5

Just my 2 cents. Decades ago, I read an article in an automotive magazine (I think). It was about Cast Iron engine block rusting, why some blocks were more susceptible to it than others. The conclusion, if I remember correctly was the Cast Iron alloy. And I think it was Oldsmobile that had a higher Nickel content than others and a significantly lower rusting rate. I'd be curious if the alloys differ much between boiler manufactures in this case.

Maybe different alloys deal with "Heat Induced Chloride Activated Graphitic Corrosion" better than others.

Do any boiler manufacturers recommend distilled water ?

Mark N

The Independence should be discontinued now that they have the Steam Max.

skimmer

I average 1 gallon a month I believe in the coldest months of the year. Dec thru Feb.

I may have a tiny tiny leak in my bathroom radiator which I turned the valve off bc the leak was bad at the stem nut. I thought it had stopped it but I can barely hear it when it’s quiet.

Other than that I don’t hear any other leaks in the house. Had one bad valve and stem leak in a bedroom I fixed the day before thanksgiving.

So I’m not sure what else it can be. I see others on here that use a gallon a day or 2 gallons a week. My water level does go down but it goes down slowly.

I mean does the amount of hours that it runs producing steam matter? My sensei thermometer will give me the hours. Last December I ran it 52 hours.

I’ll have this months total hours in a few days

Mark N

The IN-4 holds 6.5 gallons of water. If you replace 3 gallons in 3 months that’s nearly 50%.

skimmer

so I am at a loss. It’s 4 years old. I should go from rad to rad to listen for tiny leaks? I have 5 rads and a 6th that is shut off that I can hear a very tiny sizzle.

Can that tiny sizzle cause that much water loss?

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1830795#Comment_1830795

You said a gallon during the coldest months.

I assume you mean during extreme cold?

Mark N

@skimmer, look at all the likely places that you can have a leak first. At the main vents and rad vents. At the packing nut and the union on the valve. The packing may need to be replaced under the nut.

skimmer

idk about that. I mean the winter in nyc. We have some mild winters lately. But I do tend to raise the temp for heat in the morning. Maybe runs an hour. Lower it for work. And then run it at night as needed. Even when the house shows 70 and I will raise it to 72 to get the warmth.. if I feel cold.

The only times it runs during the day is when it’s cold out. Like 25 or lower and I leave the stat at 67. My sensei will show that it does come on to maintain temp.

So I would say no to extreme cold.

So for example last winter

Jan it ran for 105 hours

Feb is ran for 61

I also have a basement hot water loop but I don’t have any measurement on how long that ran.

Is it also possible since it’s an open system the basement zone running would cause some evaporation. I could swear I hear some air coming out of the bedroom vent when only the basement loop first comes on. I have the aquastat set to 180. Last year is was set to 200

Long Beach Ed

When tightening up a steam system, we pressurize it with an air compressor after removing the vents and plugging the tappings. Any leak sings like a tea kettle. Usually the radiator valve packing, sight glass washers and a few unions can be tightened to eliminate all the leaks. A couple of hours' work.

If you still lose water after plugging the leaks, switch to faster closing vents.

Steam systems are open systems and there will always be some loss to evaporation.

skimmer

@Long Beach Ed Its mild here in NYC the 50's no heat running

When i fire her up again, Im going to go rad to rad and check for leaks. I already know about one tiny one.

Do you think my hot water loop could have caused the water loss?

When it was on, It would run continuously …. , run for hours ( louvers were shut) never satisfying the thermostat

sometimes at start up I would hear air come out of the bedroom radiator vent - start up meaning the basement loop was turned on for heat while no heat was used upstairs ( steam).

The constant heating of boiler water by aquatstat set to 180 and the damper opening… this would go all night long until i fixed it about a week ago.. whaddya think?? possible??

ethicalpaul

curious, why would you buy the same model that only lasted 12 years?

skimmer

@ethicalpaul I have double tappings with drop headers.. and the guy that did the replacement said that would the best solution for a January boiler replacement since everything lined up..no black pipe repiping, everything just fit into place.. basically slide out and slide in..

And at the time, I had no idea the burnhams had this reputation or problem

Although he wouldnt recommend Burnham, and usually installs WM from what I remember…

ethicalpaul

since you have double tappings with hopefully slower steam velocity you could try something I’ve been experimenting with:

See how high you can keep the water level without carryover.

This will take more heat off the combustion gas and the water will splash up higher inside the castings perhaps keeping the top of the casting cooler.

And of course I would sure as heck make sure my pH was about 10. Although I can’t say that will help your burnham, it without doubt reduces corrosion

Are we all pretty sure this section rotted from the inside out?

Those pins are incredibly clean looking, even where the leaking water ran down them on the outside and rusted them

skimmer

@ethicalpaul Im not sure how it rusted out.. it lasted 16 years.. The last few years i suspected it was taking on more water then usual but I wasnt paying too much attention.. I just figured it was getting older and not so efficient..

Looking back Im guessing that the hole started out tiny and I was loosing steam out of the chimney, slowly until it failed.. Cant prove it, just feel it.

Ive always boiled the water to steam any time I added water, although there may have been times my auto feeder added water without my knowledge. But most times I would override and add.

Are you suggesting I add water to the top of the sight glass? Or go higher then that?

ethicalpaul

yes it definitely starts out as a tiny hole, then it’s the walking dead

I’m not convinced it matters when you boil after adding water. But what seems clear is Burnham really messed something up in their castings.

I would raise it like 1/2” at a time and let it be for a few days watching it when you can to ensure it doesn’t carry over.

This would be after it is very clean from skimming. If there’s any oil it will surely carry over when you raise it

I think just shy of the top of the glass is as high as I would go

I wonder what others think of this idea

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1830774#Comment_1830774

This.

For perspective- we're in the process of replacing a Burnham 405 steamer that has to be 40 years old. The system had several leaking vents and rad valve packings for a long time, which we fixed, but it was too late for this one. I'm sure it would have lasted longer if the system were better maintained.

Note to Burnham/US Boiler- the real solution here is GAS BURNERS IN MEGASTEAMS!

skimmer

On a separate note i tested the pH of the boiler water, i got a 9 on my test strip.

I dont add any chemicals.. its nyc tap water.. I tested it out of the tap and got a 7.

So somehow it gets to 9 in my system

ethicalpaul

If it's truly 9 that is obviously better than 7 but based on what I've seen I would still add some 8-way. It doesn't have to be much. Not everyone would agree with me.

skimmer

How would the 8 way help with above the water line failures like what happened to my first burnham?

ethicalpaul

I'm not sure it would, but it would definitely reduce corrosion in your boiler generally and that is a good thing.