Gas line too small

Claz

Looking for insight: Our contractor built melted walkways (complete with boiler and pavers) and when he went to get the gas company to complete the hookup, the gas company told him the gas line coming into our property is too small to run the system he built and needs to be enlarged before it can run. Not a huge problem except this means waiting six months to the spring (ground is frozen now and gas co won’t do the work until then) so we can’t tell if the melt system even works, and once we do enlarge the line, they’ll have to dig up some of our pavers and new landscaping. My question is: isn’t it the responsibility of the expert building the melt system to identify the size of the incoming gas line and not assume it’s large enough - before building the melt system? And is there anyway to check now that the system will work? Thank you for any insight!

mattmia2

Yes. or to contact the utility and ask them. part of the requirements of their mechanical permit to install it. don't pay the contractor until it is working and they have fixed the damage from the new gas line. you will have to pay the utility to install the larger line and meter. or maybe the contractor will suddenly figure out that they can install a smaller boiler and melt it more slowly with the existing gas supply.

Intplm.

Depending on the size / your BTU requirements you might be able to add a regulator to your current system eliminating the need to enlarge the pipe diameter. You also would not have to wait or incur the heavy cost of adding pipe.

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828024#Comment_1828024

a different regulator isn't gong to solve the problem of the service lateral being too small to supply the needed amount of gas at the pressure in the main.

EBEBRATT-Ed

This is why Massachusetts (which seldom does anything right) has it right in this instance as we are required to get a "letter of availability" from the gas utility before we can get a permit to install a large additional load.

Its you contractors fault he made an assumption, and he assumed wrong.

ethicalpaul

Oh come now Ed 😅I'm sure there can be frustrations, but Massachusetts is:

• Ranked #3 in education with a high school graduation rate over 90%
• Ranked #2 or #3 in per capita income
• Ranked #8 in overal economy
• Ranked #2 in health care
• Ranked 4th or 5th lowest in crime rate
• Has been ranked as the best state to live in many times including the last two years

That doesn't just happen by accident my friend!

Claz

Thank you all for your responses. We will need to up our meter and add regulators, and the gas company says we can’t do that until we make our gas line larger from the 1/2 inch to at least 3/4 inch and more likely 1 1/4. Our contractor said it’s so unusual to have a 1/2 inch pipe (house built in the mountains in 1979) that it never occurred to him that it would be so small. Is that assumption enough to clear him from the responsibility of finding out before the work began? It sounds like in Mass, assumptions are not okay. (Lived there before, and loved it - we just happen to have more snow and sunny days here in Utah.)

ScottSecor

It appears that you have high pressure (relatively speaking) natural gas gas lines. Until about fifteen years ago there were few homes in the area of NJ we service with high pressure gas lines. Thankfully, the utilities (with the help of the government I suspect) decided to update the antiquated underground pipe network and installed high pressure lines.

That being said, we have done and still continue to to oil to gas conversions on a regular basis. When we visit the site (residential, commercial or industrial) we always try to look at the incoming gas line to the meter, the meter, the gas pressure regulator and the house gas line. In most cases the gas line from the street is adequately sized, but often the meter is too small. I suppose the gas company knew most customers would eventually heat with natural gas.

In your case, you mentioned Utah, I'm guessing the northern part of the state as you mentioned frozen ground and snow. I think your contractor may have forgotten how much energy (natural gas) it takes to heat the great outdoors to prevent "the greatest snow on earth" from accumulating. Based on your posts, I'm guessing the load for snowmelt may be double or triple what is required to heat your house.

HVACNUT

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828171#Comment_1828171

Maybe, but that's no excuse for calling a car a caah. I've got family in Webster. We laugh at each other's accents. I'm born and bred Suffolk county Long Island but I talk like 1950's Brooklyn for some reason.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Have been in MA all my life. One of the most restricted states as far as regulations. New gas installations are not allowed in some areas. If my situation was different, I would have been out of her 5 1/2 years ago when I retired.

But then again, we do have Cape Cod.

One thing I do strongly agree with MA on is the "letter of availability" required to add a larger load to an existing gas system. If the building owner wants to add a substantial load it's up to the plumber/gasfitter to notify the gas utility. The utility does the engineering (meter size & pipe size) up to the meter and says yea or ney. They then furnish the letter of availability because you can't get a permit without it.

It avoids the situation we have above. And if it doesn't it surely shows where the responsibility falls.

We also have no HP gas inside any house, up to the meter yes. MA considers HP anything over 12" of wc. We also cannot have natural and propane in the same building without special permission. Commercial and industrial can have HP gas in the building but you have to have a drawing by a PE and stamped and signed off on by the inspector. That's bad enough, but you used to have to go to Boston to the plumbing Board to get HP gas approved.

The other issue is that ALL gas and plumbing products regardless of when, where or who made them are not supposed to be installed in MA unless they are listed on the MA web site. This sometimes gets overlooked.

But I had a job in an industrial plant where they put on an addition and wanted to relocate some existing gas equipment that had been previously installed and permitted and was in use for 20 years or more.

The inspector would not approve the install because this old equipment was not listed on the MA web site. (MA had no listing requirement when it was originally installed)

But there was a work around that required the building owner to hire a PE to certify that the old equipment was OK to install. More $$$$$

So, see what I mean about regulations?

And by the way. There are no Homeowner permits for gas or plumbing

So if you like MA by all means give it a try!!

Mad Dog_2

Inexcusable oversight. Tough to verify if he did Anything right. Mad Dog

GW

that’s a tough one, and we’ve all been there. The contractor has a hard lesson on his hands.

(Massachusetts: snap—-we have forum rules 😌)

Intplm.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828033#Comment_1828033

"Depending on" and 'might be able to" this language is offered to the post because not being there is the issue. I cannot see what's what from here. Surely you will agree?

Intplm.

@Claz Go with the 1-1/4", This way if you need to add anything in the future you will not need to go through this again.

ethicalpaul

So if you like MA by all means give it a try!!

Hey I said it was good, but it's no New Jersey! 😂

I don't know anything, but 1/2" seems like a ridiculously small gas hookup! Here in my NJ neighborhood we all had 1" low pressure from a 6" cast iron main but now they have replaced the mains with plastic and moved all the meters outside instead of my basement with high pressure going to the meter.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ethicalpaul

Outside meter are good. With an inside meter and the utility outside digging they would sometimes hit the gas pipe and it would leak. The gas can follow the outside of the pipe and leak into the house.

Doesn't sound logical but it happens. That is the big reason they went with outside meters

GW

low pressure and intermediate pressure are two different animals. If you have a regulator at the gas meter, it’s intermediate. No regulator- that’s low pressure. I believe some neighborhoods on low pressure get a little iffy in super cold temperatures

ethicalpaul

Yeah I think it is a good change. My old meter connection was a little leaky too which wasn't great. And now there's just very low pressure gas coming into the house, no more regulator except on my boiler, so that's all good.

But it's a lot freaking harder to clock my boiler now LOL

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828375#Comment_1828375

even though my meter is outside they still wanted to sniff around inside when my black iron service was leaking

EBEBRATT-Ed

If they break or damage the gas line underground and it is an outside meter the gas shouldn't have a path into the house , less likely but anything is possible.