New Yorker Burner Limits

Pupotexas

I have little experience or knowledge of the subject. I inherited a home in PA. It has a New Yorker burner that provides heat through cast iron radiators in a very small 1000 sq ft, two-story home. An electric water heater supplies domestic hot water. The limits on the New Yorker are set to 160 and 180. Is it not wasting energy to maintain the low limit at 160? What would be the consequence of lowering it to 120-140? I did read where maintaining water temperature too low (<120) could risk health issues with the water. Thanks for your patience and simple response as I seek basic education. Thank you.

Jamie Hall

If your domestic hot water is supplied by that electric water heater, with no connection to the boiler, then the temperature setting to worry about from a health standpoint is the thermostat on the water heater — usually found down near the bottom element. What you have read is entirely correct — it should be at least 120 and preferably 140. But, of course, 140 is dangerously hot, so any newer installation will have a tempering valve which takes the hot water from the water heater and mixes it with just enough cold water to be safe. Any competent plumber can do that.

Now as to the boiler — it may have had a heating coil for domestic hot water once upon a time, which would mean it needed to be kept nice and warm. Hence that control which keeps it between 160 and 180. You don't need that for heating, but how to change that so that it is what we call a "cold start" system depends a lot on what controls are on the boiler and how they are wired. Just lowering it to 120 to 140 — even if you could (not all controls go that low) would probably mean that it wouldn't heat the house the way you'd like it to.

LRCCBJ

You most certainly can lower the boiler water temperature. How much you lower it depends on the outdoor temperature. If it's 0F outdoors, you'll most likely need a minimum of 160F or so to heat the building. If it's 50F, outdoors, you can heat the building with less than 130F. I would not go below 130F due to condensation issues that will deteriorate the boiler over time.

The actual temperatures require experimentation because we don't know how much radiation you have for that 1000 square feet. If it is a builder's special with very limited baseboard, you might need the full 180F when it's 0F outdoors.

The experiment is all yours. The lower the boiler temperature, the less fuel you will use.

Pupotexas

Thank you very much for your informative reply. I didn’t think to check the temperature setting of the hot water heater. I removed the panel and found the setting at 135 which seems reasonable given your feedback. I probably need to consult with someone who comes to the home to see what I have and how it’s rigged before I play with aquastat knobs. I’ve observed that the burner runs ~3 times per hour when it’s very cold outside however the average run is a mere 12-15 minutes. This is seemingly because the Honeywell 6220 T6 thermostat maintains a very tight tolerance of 1%. For example, assume my setting is 68 degrees. The thermostat almost never allows the actual temperature to drop to 67 degrees. The thermostat calls for heat while the temperature reads 68. Now sometimes it overshoots on the high side and will read 69 degrees 10-15 minutes AFTER the run is complete but that’s understandable as the radiators continue to radiate. But it will soon settle at 68 and after it sits at 68 for 10-15 minutes it cycles again (without ever displaying a reading of 67). I think I prefer longer cycles. I prefer it to wait until it senses 65 or 66 before restarting. It may run 20-30 minutes but only do so every 90 minutes or so. It seems the longer runs would be more efficient since the first 5+ minutes of each run is consumed by the boiler firing up and bringing the water to temp, correct? Shorter cycles means the burner is doing so more frequently and therefore using more fuel? Assuming I have that correct, unfortunately this thermostat doesn’t allow adjustments to the setting differential or tolerance. It has a CPH setting however I read that temperature overrides CPH on this Honeywell which would seem to make the CPH adjustment moot? Anyway, when I am observant I tend to manually drop the temperature setting to 65 or 66 (using the app on my phone), wait for it to drop into that range, and then change it to 68 which produces a longer run—essentially ‘manually’ triggering the runs. And then back to 65. And so on. Those runs are 20-30 minutes (and usually land at 69-70 degrees approximately 15-20 minutes after the burner turns off). Then I don’t need to force another run (once back to 65-66) for another 75-90 minutes. This feels more efficient but I imagine many factors go into the equation (including the low limit setting). I am babbling. I hope to learn about this topic since the burner is pretty much the most expensive component of the home and heating oil is the largest annual line item expense. I found the manual for the New Yorker but I’d love to find a simple document that explains the system thoroughly but in simple lay terms. Or I could find someone to come by and show-and-tell for me. Thanks again!

Pupotexas

Thank you very much for your feedback.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1826903#Comment_1826903

LRCCBJ

 I’ve observed that the burner runs ~3 times per hour when it’s very cold outside however the average run is a mere 12-15 minutes. This is seemingly because the Honeywell 6220 T6 thermostat maintains a very tight tolerance of 1%. For example, assume my setting is 68 degrees. The thermostat almost never allows the actual temperature to drop to 67 degrees. The thermostat calls for heat while the temperature reads 68. Now sometimes it overshoots on the high side and will read 69 degrees 10-15 minutes AFTER the run is complete but that’s understandable as the radiators continue to radiate. But it will soon settle at 68 and after it sits at 68 for 10-15 minutes it cycles again (without ever displaying a reading of 67). I think I prefer longer cycles. I prefer it to wait until it senses 65 or 66 before restarting. It may run 20-30 minutes but only do so every 90 minutes or so. It seems the longer runs would be more efficient since the first 5+ minutes of each run is consumed by the boiler firing up and bringing the water to temp, correct? Shorter cycles means the burner is doing so more frequently and therefore using more fuel? Assuming I have that correct, unfortunately this thermostat doesn’t allow adjustments to the setting differential or tolerance. It has a CPH setting however I read that temperature overrides CPH on this Honeywell which would seem to make the CPH adjustment moot?

I took a look at the operating instructions for the T6 and you are absolutely correct. I cannot find any adjustment for CPH. You are stuck with the very sensitive nature of that thermostat and it will attempt to hold the temp swing to 1 degree. Of course, this will increase the CPH.

Personally I run six Honeywell CT 3500's which give a 2 degree swing if set for a steam system. I have FHA so this is an absolute pleasure as, without it, I'd have 6 cycles per hour due to the very low mass.

Shorter cycles does not necessarily mean more fuel. Remember, the shorter the cycle, the hotter the boiler when it is called again. It's hard on the equipment if the cycles get too short………….like going into your car and starting it every 15 minutes…………..the components wear out faster than if you started it every hour.

The only way to get longer cycles is to change that thermostat.

I know exactly what you are speaking about when the 'stat refuses to display the actual temperature when the setpoint is within 1 degree of actual. Change the setpoint by one degree and the display on the 3500 changes by 2 degrees. Apparently Honeywell believes we are idiots. They might be correct in the majority of cases.

Pupotexas

Thank you for the information and guidance. Thank you also for consulting the Honeywell manual to further assist me. Yeah that (new) Honeywell ‘stat plays a game. My set point is 68 and the actual will stick at 68 and drive a burner run without displaying a reading of 67. However, when I change the set point from 68 to, say, 65, seconds later the readout of the actual will change to 66 or 67!

In case anyone cares to comment, I’ll add this for the big picture: Assuming the PA home is occupied 95% of the time, a daytime thermostat set point of 68 and overnight 62, the 1000 sq ft, 100 yr-old home is using 500-600 gallons of heating oil annually (in addition to ~$30/mo for the separate hot water heater for domestic water). Of course the great majority of that heating oil usage is between December and March (~100-125g/mo during those four months). In terms of overall efficiency and in broad strokes without splitting hairs, is the system reasonably efficient? In other words, do these figures suggest a significant inefficiency that warrants exploration and investment?

Thanks again for your time and guidance. I appreciate this forum.

rynoheat

I think I found a manual for that thermostat that shows an adjustable CPH setting:

https://www.thermalproducts.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/TH6220D-FocusPRO-Installation.pdf

Reducing that setting should give you longer cycles run less often.

LRCCBJ

Regarding the consumption, it's somewhat difficult to provide realistic guidance because the heatloss of the building is unknown. If the 100 year old home in PA has not a bit of insulation and the R value of the walls is about 3, the use of 550 gallons is reasonable. However, if a "modern" house with 2x4 construction, fully insulated, with good windows (and not too many of them), 1000 square feet used 550 gallons of oil for a full year, there is something seriously amiss. Usually caused by air leakage.

In your situation, a 100 year old house would seriously benefit by you spending a couple of days and STOPPING the air infiltration. Air leaks right through the baseboards all over the house. It also leaks through every electrical outlet on the outside walls. It also allows warm air to leak through every penetration in the second floor ceiling (exhaust fans). And the big killer is the leaks around the windows through the trim. There are 100 gallons of oil per year hidden in those leaks and you barely notice them.