Need help balancing a single pipe steam system in Queens, NY

Alviar

Hey guys, I greatly appreciate the vast amount of knowledge shared on this forum. It can be a bit overwhelming for a novice like me. Did some research and with the help of this site, gave me confidence to install an antler with 4 Gorton #1s near the end of the main, using a TPV vent and installing a bunch of Gorton C & D vents through the building (which is wrong). Some changes worked, some didn't, but i'm tired of experimenting and want to hire an expert in nyc to balance my system. I have visited the find a contractor section and just trying to narrow down from the pool. Anyone interested?

Details:

Peerless boiler installed 2015

3 fl, 6 unit building in Elmhurst from 1917

apts over the boiler heat fine, apts furtherest from the boiler heat up a fraction

leaking

I own a 12 unit one pipe Chicago . Best is you lean what’s going on and DIY. What I needed to do took years since I don’t live there and I had some apartments gutted and walls brick foam insulated . If I hired a pro it would have cost many many thousands and I would not be happy. Old buildings systems were not always designed right as Coal was cheap. So you just heated it. Gorton D only belong on a few coldest radiators . Hottest get 4 , some I can cool get aluminum tape and a pin hole making it a 3. Average normal is a 5 to start. First get a one or two certified glass thermometers from Grainger for about 30$ , then I got Taylor glass thermometers that I can loosen the glass and calibrate all to the main known thermometer and glue down. A multi room wireless thermometer can help also. So you know what you have . All radiators need a Pitch not level . Old buildings settle and mains need a pitch - not level. Then figure most old vents are clogged and not good. If they don’t completely seal when hot you loose heat and waste energy and boiler water. Do valves leak? Repack them, then start with Gorton 5 . Coldest I sometimes double vent D, one top one middle. Top vent gives of less heat change . Hottest radiator gets 4 on top or foil tape and pin hole making it a 3. Coldest a Double vent one top one middle remember, a middle vent gives more heat than top vent. Write down temperature before you start , keep track of it. There is alot to do and this explanation is way to short at 3am but I’m taking the dog for a walk it’s 15f out, zero wind chill Chicago. It Will never be 100% at all temperatures outside . But it can be real close.

leaking

You don’t want leaking vents that don’t close under low pressure or you waste $, radiator won’t get fully hot and cold water makeup will affect boiler with minerals and lower efficiency. If you tap a leaving vent when under pressure , and it stops or doesn’t , replace it immediately . Try a bucket of Vinegar to soak and de lime it , usually won’t work as well. Main boiler vents need to seal fast, leakers go. I could write a book on balancing . IR thermometers are good but have an accepted temp inaccuracy of usually 2 or more degrees . Accuracy is not digital unless you spend for a commercial quality set up. Coldest radiator now, be sure radiator has a pitch to valve . Double Gorton D vents , one top one middle. A piece of foil faced 1-1.5” foam board screwed to wall, foil facing in, stops heating exterior walls and in my test can raise a room 1f. The foil reflects to the room radiator Radiant Heat, Radiant Heat might be 40% of heat output. Stop heating exterior walls with no insulation! Are basement pipes insulated ? Insulate. The list goes on and on .

Alviar

Thanks for all the advice @leaking . Interesting idea with the foil tape & pinhole. Today, I am going to a few apartments closest to the boiler and making sure they don't have Gorton Cs or Ds. Going to replace those with Hoffman 40s, which I have laying around.Then I'll make sure the main risers have at minimum a Gorton D. I forgot to mention that I pitched all the radiators toward the valves. I also have Honeywell wireless temperature sensors in different locations so I can have an idea which apts are cold that I monitor on an app.

Last night in NY was in the 20s-30s degrees so I removed the air valve completely in a cold apt and covered the opening with a loose towel just so the radiator would heat up. Anytime I "bleed" the radiators, they heat up 80-90% of the radiator. After I install a new air valve though, the radiator heats up at most 10%. I've tried Hoffman, Maid o mist, Gorton air valves with no positive outcome.

Hope I don't get roasted for leaving a radiator opened without an air valve… I'm desperate to give my tenants heat.

LRCCBJ

You can't leave the radiator open without a vent. On a long boiler run, steam will reach the location of the vent and pass right into the room resulting in extreme danger to the tenant………………especially if a child is near the vent at the time (similar height).

Mad Dog_2

Hi Alviar. I am on Eastern Queens border if you need anything. Mad Dog

leaking

yes dont leave a no vent. What does your pressure run? What is set maximum - minimum ? Old leaking vents and valves will kill pressure . Any that his, change and throw in vinegar. I have a 110ft pipe run and go to stop at just under a lb, cut in is at 1/4lb, Yes only Gorton C- D on coldest rooms. Leaks will affect steam travel. As I said Gorton 5 are average vents , 4 and Aluminum tape for overheating . And Double vent one top one middle where cold. Middle vent makes most heat compared to top. I just got Taps from Amazon if you need. ( hard to find not at HD or most hardware, I think Bosch and cheap , DIY . Get a few taps they only last maybe 10 new holes . Nothing worse than drilling a hole and the tap won’t work !!

leaking

do pipes knock? If so pipe is not draining. You don’t want level pipes main. My building settled so much from my tree planting spree that I have a mess. 15 trees on a corner lot, I just finish cutting all but 2 down. Check for missing pipe hangers. I actually just bought a 49$ Bosch laser level (hd) and am making brackets to measure my insulated pipes for pitch. I have mains problems . Floors sag, sections of building can settle unevenly . It’s a major engineering project. I’m still learning I’m no pro. Just a HO 😀

STEAM DOCTOR

People have died, from removed air vents. The steam can displace the air

leaking

steam travels better , more evenly at lower vs higher pressure. I used to run 1.5-2 lb now 3/4 lb. Now I don’t shove steam. Dan here has a good book you need.

Alviar

Here are more answers to @leaking's questions. I'm not sure how to read the pressure so I will attach some pics. Also, the pipes knock in the front basement of the building (while the boiler is in the back) only in first 10 minutes of a heating cycle. As far as I know, there aren't major leaking, just maybe a slight bubbling sound in a few valves when the heat is on for a long time. I will check to see what angle my main pipes are. And I have not insulated my pipes but will look into it.

Thanks for the feedback about leaving the vent open without an air valve. Thankfully, it's two adults in the apt and have a towel hanging over the hole, so not much steam would shoot out. It boggles me that steam flows freely when no air vent is installed. Once I install a Gorton C valve for example, next heating cycle usually results in a cold radiator.

ethicalpaul

There really shouldn't be that much difference between an open 1/8" hole and a C vent. I would bet there is some other issue at play such as water being trapped by a low spot in some pipe that feeds the radiator.

Alviar

forgot to add this pic

leaking

install 2 - D Gorton . One C isn’t doing anything , the knocking pipe is not flowing pitched , it must be level or has a low spot. That can really mess up balance and make an area impossible to heat. It’s all one big loop and has to rise out and flow back . Pressure is high , like way high. More pressure can make it worse . Probably more pipes not pitched.

ethicalpaul

installing more larger vents is not good advice IMO but I agree with what he said about pitch

leaking

installing Gorton D is perfectly correct advise, so it putting in a second vent . Top venting gives less heat than a middle vent. Drill and tap . Take your C and a drill bit that fits inside and ream it around , be carefull if it grabs you can get hurt . A vise or gloves . Ethical Paul , you obviously do not own an apartment building and pay 15,000.00 a year in gas or have had a manager turn up heat for one tenant Doubling tha gas bill!, I have . . When you have a cold room , your choise can be a new radiator or turning up the heat so the rest of the building tenants open windows , just to heat one room . Why do you think large vents are made , sell and work. Sometimes you need a fix . I use Double D Gorton drilled to. F ! You do what you need to do. Or tenants move and you go broke . Now that’s bad. My tenants have good heat. But it’s a job getting it with 100 yr old poor designs.

STEAM DOCTOR

You might want to seriously boost your main venting

ethicalpaul

I guess since I don’t own an apartment building I can’t think or have ideas.

In that case I won’t bother to say that trying to make steam go where you want it by adding fast venting all over the place is like rolling dice.

Alviar

Thanks for all the input guys. I'm hiring Mad Dog to inspect my situation and figure out the best course of action and hopefully solve my heating headaches.

Long Beach Ed

Mad Dog is an excellent choice. As a landlord, you will enjoy working with him. He speaks your language.