No 1 Ideal Sectional Boiler from American Radiator Company on house built in 1926
Hello,
I just bought a home built in 1926 that has natural gas powered 1-pipe steam heat with the boiler shown in photos. This boiler (I believe from 1927) heats the home amazingly with significant but very tolerable water hammer (not constant). My concern is safety. I've read "We Got Steam Heat" but am still learning a lot. I'm wondering if anyone is able to answer these questions:
- Do you think it's wise to replace boiler? I live in Seattle where there isn't a lot of steam heat and I still haven't found anyone who I'm confident knows what they're doing enough to safely replace the boiler. And I have been looking.
- The pressure gauge stays at 0 throughout heat cycle even when I cranked heat up to 80 degrees in an attempt to test it. Is this normal or do you think the pressure gauge is broken? Or perhaps the pigtail is clogged? Is there any trick to cleaning the pigtails?
- My home is 2400 sq ft. Would it be normal for the pressuretrol to trigger the boiler to shut off and on in a normal heat cycle to 75 degrees? I've noticed that this doesn't happen.
- Looking at the last 2 pictures, what is this opening on the bottom back end of the boiler? I opened the door (see pic with my hand) and it's filled with debri. Should this be cleaned out? What is its purpose?
- See pic of exhaust duct. The door on the side of the duct (right before it reaches the chimney) does not freely swing. Is this a problem?
Thanks so much,
Nick
Comments
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Do you think it's wise to replace boiler.
No. It's not leaking and appears to have been well maintained.
The pressure gauge stays at 0 throughout heat cycle even when I cranked heat up to 80 degrees in an attempt to test it. Is this normal or do you think the pressure gauge is broken.
Normally the pressure in a steam heating system is too low to read on a 15psi gauge. You may want to add a 0-3psi gauge to see what's happening.
Cleaning pigtails requires removing the p-trol and passing a long pipe cleaner through it. However, systems when correctly sized do not necessarily cycle on pressure.
The door on the back was a damper for coal burning. Yes, vacuum out the debris.
The door on the side of the duct (right before it reaches the chimney) does not freely swing.
That's called a barometric damper. And yes it should swing. That should be addressed first.
Nice system! Keep up with the maintenance and you'll get many more years of service.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Edit: when does the water hammer occur? Beginning of the cycle? End?
Can you localize which pipe is hammering?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Water hammer occurs at beginning of cycle. Not able to localize it. I’ve noticed the radiators aren’t tilted so I thought this would be something that’s easy to do and might help…
Is there any way to test if the pressuretrols are working given the system never seems to reach those pressures? In your experience, do they fail often?
Lastly, what is the danger with the barometric damper not swinging? What is its purpose?thanks so much
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Keep running it. Remove and clean the pigtails every year or 2. If you have to replace the pigtails use brass instead of steel. (one of yours may be steel)
Have it serviced and have the combustion checked every year or two. Blow down the low water cutoff occasionally. Keep the water level at 1/2 a glass full.
Add a 5 psi gauge net to the 30lb gauge …keeep both.
There is no reason for the boiler to build pressure. If it heats the house evenly there is no need for pressure. pressure causes problaems.
Repitch your rads and look for sagging pipes or missing and //or broken hangers. Use a level to check pitch
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Lastly, what is the danger with the barometric damper not swinging? What is its purpose.
The barometric damper regulates draft, and hence combustion air. Try to see what's holding it up from swinging. Might just need to be exercised by hand a few times to loosen it up.
Note, there's a counterweight that sets the flow. Don't change that adjustment.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Alternatively it may be an economizer. Can you post more pictures of it?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
says duel fuel draft control. It loosened a bit as I worked it. Perhaps I’ll use a little silicone spray as well
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that pivot needs to be mounted level across, your's looks cocked, the damper will slide to the low side and bind, again,
the wired device on top is a backdraft sensor, when heated it will/should shut down the burner
known to beat dead horses2 -
Yep, pivot needs to be parallel to the floor.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Your boiler burned a great deal of sub bituminous coal mined in the State of Washington to make steam.
About the hammering in the pipes, you should take a long bubble level if you have one and check the header pipes for a mild slope back to the boiler. You can do this with the level placed under the bottom of the header pipe first and the pipes coming off the header pipe to the radiators.
Your header pipe and the other pipes may have sagged over time and as a result the condensate cannot drain back to the boiler as it should.
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Nick,
I am in a similar position. I have stressed over my 80 year old boiler. I've also read the book, and made 300 posts here. It's like a part-time job to try learning about HVAC
For me, it's a not a great feeling to own something this old and foreign. If this boiler stops working for any reason, I am hosed. Then you open up the possibility of pipes freezing and having to gut the entire walls, basement, floors to access busted pipes. Seems like a complete nightmare.
It seems as though very old boilers are basically unservicable. I have no idea of the service history, and the oil company tech has no idea what he was even looking it. I'm starting to feel that it's smarter & safer to own equipment that is standardized and common, and that techs know how to service. I was considering getting mine replaced just so I have normal equipment that is not an enigma puzzle oddity that can't be serviced.
At least you have a tech named Steve who serviced it in 2023. Why don't you call him for a service and see what he does? That may give you some peace of mind? I tried that and the tech only knew nozzle, strainer, filter, and he didn't even do that bc the last service tech was here in the Spring. So he literally did not touch my boiler, and I have no way to contact the prior tech to see what he did. I am not even sure my boiler has ever been cleaned. Pressuretrol probably clogged/dead. LWCO not been tested in decades. etc. He refused to touch the pressure relief switch b/c it could break.
It's not a good feeling owning old obsolete equipment. It's like buying an old car with the hood welded shut. It runs now, but if there is a problem, you're utterly screwed as no one can do even simple diagnostics on ancient boilers. Replacing a working boiler can give you a fresh start, and not all this unknown baggage. The main benefit would be that you now have an oil company who will know how to do annual service on it because they installed it.
To add to the confusion, I have also been told by home builder friends that replacing an oil boiler is flat out stupid today, and that heat pump is what I should be doing, case closed. But, that's another entire body of research I have not had time to deep dive and research.
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I am a licensed Master gasfitter and conversion burner in Md. I may not know the code in your location but I was taught a conversion burner for this type boiler required modification of the vent to use a horizontal or vertical draft diverter. The field Barometric burner should be removed. Also the Cast Iron coal damper at the base of the boiler should be sealed. As well as all the front doors. That being said, these old boilers were designed for coal which is a slow hot fire. The air flow from over-fire to chimney was a straight shot with very little heat surface absorption from the fire. In this configuration the gun burner efficiency can be 80%, but the overall efficiency of this boiler with this burner is more like 65%AFUE. This gun burner blower also increases the draft. But than this boiler was never rated for todays standards. My advice is install a new boiler designed for high eff gas 80-83% and correct all the other problems. Clean the chimney, or better yet, line the flue to comply with the code. It appears to me this would never have passed a gas permit inspection. My license would require me to shut the gas off and tag out this boiler until corrections were made. Questions? Your local gas company would have the answers as well as the local gov't dept. of licensing and inspections. If there is no record of a combustion test, consider the combustion setup was never done. Did my eye see the water heater gas pipe is trapped? It should not be trapped.
BE safe, put in gas and monoxide detectors. Sadly there are many victims in cemetery's who ignore the laws of physics. The codes we follow are fire and safety codes. they should be followed.
Good luck.
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What are the 2 black lines on his sight glass? Is he supposed to have the water that low? I thought it should be 1/2 to 2/3 up the sight glass?
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The boiler looks good. The field MG1 is double action vent regulator designed to protect against downdrafts. As long as the face is plumb and the hinge, level, it can be adjusted to maintain the proper draft over fire. There should be a test hole to measure draft on the flue pipe between the regulator and the boiler breach. However the best place for a hole is 12" from breach, elbows and regulator which cannot be here so it has to go in the middle between both. Draft over fire from a warm flue should be about -.02" WC. and at the flue breach about -.04" WC. In these old boilers overfire may be hard to get to -.02" as the boilers internal path is fairly wide open. But if it is not making any soot, the combustion should be correct. The water stain on the right may be nothing or a sign of age and leaks on a section or two. Otherwise, it is tough to let the old girl go. Remember the longer it lives, the cheaper per day its life cycle cost is. So if you put a new boiler in and all you save is 10-20% over the fuel bill, you might consider which is cheaper. Divide projected fuel cost savings into the price of replacement and factor where you will be. If I pay $7,000.00, more or less to save 20% off of $1,600.00, 370.00/ year aver price over say 6 years it may take a 17 years to make up the difference. But if the boiler fails, its times to renew. Just remember there are a lot less parts to fail on this boiler than some of the new ones, which need more maintenance. Some new Weil Mclain boilers recommend service every year which costs at least 400.00 or more.
Water level looks ok. There are two levels to watch. 1 is when it is off and all water is drained down. The other is when on and there is water in the system above. The key to water is it clean, does it seem fairly steady when on. Water level if manual needs this reference, if automatic it needs to done right to meet the system demands. One thing I have always had to deal with is if the burner shuts of by low water cutoff when needing to fill. It changes the action. I always liked a fill control to feed water at a rate and time to keep the burner running as long as the stat calls for it. But it depends on boiler design. Of course most of my work is in a cold house. Best way to test is if the house has been maintaining comfort.
My previous comment on another field control in another pic did not show me if it was dual acting.
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@Paul Pollets may be able to recommend a contractor for you in the Seattle area.
Most important aspect of a new steam boiler installation is to replace the near boiler piping with black steel pipe. Near boiler piping must be done as shown in the manufacturer's installation instructions. Much more to it than just connecting A to B in a random manner.
Also size the new boiler to the EDR of the home's radiators.
Parts are very had to find for your Midco gas conversion burner. If the Midco failed, it would make more financial sense to replace the entire boiler, then just replacing the Midco burner.
A planned boiler replacement will give you more time to find the right contractor.
An unplanned emergency boiler replacement (especially steam) may result in a poor install.
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I would be very grateful if either of you could point me to a good contractor in the region! I have had very limited success finding someone so far.
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thanks Lance. What do you mean by the water heater gas pipe being trapped? I’m not sure what/which pic you’re referring to.
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@Lance , ISTR the retrofitted draft hood was used with atmospheric gas conversion burners that did not use a fan. Power gas burners, at least the ones we've used, generally specify a double-swing barometric with a blocked-flue safety switch.
The Carlin EZ-Gas Pro manual is here:
and the Midco EC manual is here:
Midco reproduced both draft hood and barometric diagrams from AGA.
Since one of the pics above shows a Midco E20B, here's the manual for that one. It uses the same diagrams as the EC manual:
Maybe @Tim McElwain would chime in here?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Some great responses already. My two cents is just to answer your first question on whether to keep your boiler. YES. Your boiler has been well maintained by the previous owners and operating safely with no leaks. You have an American Radiator Company “Redflash” sectional boiler. It was a very popular line that came in multiple sizes. I did a search on Archive so you can read up on it, a ton a material out there as knowledge is power.
https://archive.org/search?query=Ideal+Redflash+Boiler&sin=TXT
American Radiator Company guaranteed their boilers to last the “Life of the building.” Which is why those of us lucky to have them in our homes are still operating them.
My home features my 1937 Ideal Boiler No. 7 by American Radiator Company. Mine is a hot water system instead of steam but it is a beast and quite efficient (AFUE tested at 76-77%) for its age. This was after I cleaned the decades upon decades of soot from inside it. Previous owner was an 88 year old woman, as long as the thing turned on, she was good. But the fact it STILL was operating without fail just shows how much of a beating these old boilers can take. That would kill a modern steam/hot water cast iron boiler (Mikey Pipes on youtube has taught me that).I have since had a boiler tech replace the gas valve, pilot assembly and the pilot gas tubing. It’s working incredibly well (pilot kept going out). I did invest in my own combustion analyzer (used off Ebay). One of the best investments ever for peace of mind and a clear understanding of how well my boiler is operating. I’m in Michigan so no shortage of Boiler people but not as many old timers and the young folks (I’m only 36 myself) just want to tell you to replace and upgrade but no data. I’m a data person, and many HVAC companies in my area don’t even do combustion analyzer tests (or even have one) which led me to get my own. You’re telling me I need to “get rid of that old dinosaur it’s probably only 40% efficient!” but cannot back the claim up. Doing the test actually revealed my boiler is in great shape for its age and operating safely (very low CO ppm).
My home is well insulated, I use a basic Honeywell programmable thermostat, and my gas bill is very manageable. My highest bill last season was $230 for the gas portion of my bill. That includes my boiler, stove, water heater, and fireplace. You are in Seattle with more milder winters, so even more of a case to keep that boiler as that thing has not been “stressed” the way a boiler in a more colder climate region would be.And yes, you can use a shop vac to vacuum out that back access door area. I included a pic of mine clean and empty. You can also clean out the soot in the front sections, just open the doors. Wear a N-95 mask.
My last recommendation is to get yourself a CO/Explosive Gas combo detector unit (Kidde) and plug it in down in the basement for an extra layer of safety. They are $40 at Amazon, but well worth it and you only need one. The rest of the home can have your standard smoke/CO detectors. Even if you had a modern boiler/furnace, old house/new house and etc, I still would recommend having one of these.Stay warm! 😃
-Willie
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Great thread! Three 75 to 100 year old boilers that are still on the job.
They all have gas conversion burners. Willie's is an atmospheric burner. No motor. The two Midcos are power burners. Per Steamhead from 2016 the Midco motors have a centrifugal switch and are hard to find.
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Nick, in your first pic, I saw the water heater in the right background. I cannot be sure, but it appears the gas flex does a loop creating a trap before it connects to the tee with a drip leg. Drip legs were required by code because gas can contain water and other debris like small particles that can clog or restrict gas flow. It gets in there because in old pipe systems water is added to keep old joints tight, dirt gets in from construction. I have found spider webs in pipes that were installed and it was overlooked. Hard to see those webs sometimes. We should always make sure the part or pipe we install does not have a blockage. Spider web will let a pilot work, but not fill the burner. A plumber gave up because his new valve failed to send water to the faucet. He did not know it, but it was manufactured cast shut. He did not look at it. No matter the codes, no matter how wrong, I am still amazed how things can continue to work. But we keep learning. Just remember old things required certain ways to do them. Some not always safe. New stuff has so many more protections. Sometimes we can add them to the old and we should, but few do it. Many old systems spilled monoxide into basements because of openings in vent pipes, flue fails, but nothing shuts off. Openings must be sealed in conversions. Any modification of a product will void a warranty. But who warrants a product when the manufacture no longer exists? But those modifications have to be right or we create a new problem. I have seen walls added around a boiler/ furnace water heater and a new problem occurs. Not enough makeup air for proper combustion. Monoxide and soot and failure happens, sometimes death. It took me 7 years of specialized education to master plumbing and gas fitting. I mastered several more. There have been many changes, and any good tech will tell you the education never stops. Without continued training we grow ignorant. I teach to those who listen and I expect others to tell me when I'm wrong so I can keep it right. I just wish these manuals were not 150 pages long. Any owner with an old combustion unit would be wise to put a flue spillage switch in. My last note on this long winded thread: It is hard to diagnose without an in person visit. From what is not said, to what is not seen. It is amazing how so many can make good recommendations. I have often found after my first impression, walk thought, it still took additional detective work to find the truth. I remind my techs, do not test with the boiler room, the closet room's door open. It may be the only thing that will let you find the truth. Oh and those who find soot, Get a smoke spot pump to tell you how clean it is. Especially before you use that $1,500.00 Combustion analyzer. And lastly use only a vacuum rated for soot. It filters the best, and soot is flammable. I recommend the Mastercraft soot master furnace vacuum 641M.
Carbon can ignite between 300 and 450 degrees Celsius (572 and 842 Fahrenheit). sparks are hotter. Soot is the most easily burned form of carbon. This is because soot is carbon dust and dust has a very large surface area when compared to its volume, this means that it takes less heat to set it on fire than say a lump of coal which has a much smaller surface area when compared to its volume. A cloud of soot can explode over a naked flame and will burn very easily in most circumstances. Courtesy of https://firefighterinsider.com/carbon-flammable/
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Those Boilers are really awsome! and having a large "cool" factor I would make it a science project taking a lot of my time. The reliability could be high in the event of grid power loss, possibly operate with a generator, or a LiPo4 battery bank and inverter.
Being from Oklahoma, I have never had the privilege to own a boiler.
My experience with heat: I have recently remodeled my 2400ft² home (Actually that took years…. LOL) My home was stripped of all sheet rock, the old rock wool insulation abated, then replaced with PU spray foam, very tight!
I tried several ways to heat my home temporarily helping me decide on the best method for me.
My "bright idea" a couple of automotive radiators, fans, PEX, pumps and various devices in the lines, powered by my AO smith 200k BTU tankless water heater, pretty awsome, fun to engineer and build, but too much money playing with that idea, and my wife was NOT a fan of it. With that project I learned "don't try to reinvent the wheel"
Then I tried an open gas heater from the late sixties, an awsome beautiful Dearborn heater like the ones I grew up with, but it made SO MUCH Humidity in the home, not good. (Old homes are not tight like modern homes).
Then I effectively heated the home with six 1.5kw oil filled radiant heaters like the ones from Walmart placed around the house, not very attractive and I had to purchase the heating energy want to stay married so, I tried the next thing.
I installed an LG RED mini-split heat pump in my shop office as a test, and WOW! Silent and SO effective, hardly an electric bill! So, it is decided, an LG system for the home.
I chose an LG RED LMU480HHV outdoor unit and six indoor units from eComfort.com, two wall mount and four ceiling cassettes. The system components were stored in my warehouse for six months or so while I learned all about the system and how to install it. One of my sons and I performed the mechanical installation and I will proudly share a google drive folder with lots of pics if anyone is interested.
After the mechanical install, I used a “reputable contractor” to connect the copper branch lines and commission the system. That ended in disaster, he even lost the factory charge! (He should have worn a red rubber ball on his nose while doing the work.)
I ended up purchasing tools and commissioned the system myself. Refrigerant, Mini-slit core removers, field piece MR45 refrigerant recovery unit, VPX7 vacuum pump, TESTO heat and load kit, (I later discovered the normal HVAC tools are unnecessary on mini-splits but for the refrigerant scales and micron sensor) and an LG Wi-Fi dongle to connect a tablet to the outdoor unit. Once I corrected all the damage done by the visiting clown, the system operated SO amazingly effective and very efficient, low bills.
Please consider conventional methods to heat a home where energy is purchased in the form of wood, coal, oil, gas or electricity then converted to heat energy.
Heat pumps collect heat energy that naturally exists outdoors, concentrate it into the refrigerant, transporting it indoors. The cost is to move (pump) heat from outdoor to indoor. Modern Mini-Split heat pumps are a variable capacity system. VRF (variable refrigerant flow) variable speed compressor, fans and EEVs (electronic expansion valves) and LOTS of sensors, all used to control capacity in real time by an MCU or microcontroller result in high efficiency.
CoachBoilerMaker, Your home builder friends are not far off!
Jaime
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@TheUpNorthState88 So does the successor to the American Radiator Company honor the building lifetime guaranty? As far as I can tell the successor is Trane.
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TheUpNorthState88's comment really hits the nail on the head. These are good units that last a long time. But just as any boiler they need regular maintenance to operate reliably and safely. It looks like Willy got the training and education to take care of his own equipment. If you can't do that, find a qualified mechanic who can and will.
Don't settle for an ignorant serviceman whose advice is spending your dollars to replace equipment that has plenty of life left in it.
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Here's a source that's very informative, "The Pipe Doctor" on YouTube. It's nice to see a video on how to do it.
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Really. Don't fall for the "it's old and you're doomed if you don't replace it NOW" hype.
Same song and dance we got with my MIL's 1960s Weil Mclain.
Still working 15 years later.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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Oh, and the low water level "may" be an attempt to reduce the banging you're experiencing. Try putting the waterline half way up the sight glass and let us know if that changes anything.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
That would be hilarious 🤣 but the way companies get out of that one is limiting the lifetime guarantee to the original purchaser and life they are in the home.
-Willie1
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