Warren-Webster system diagnosis help

Pete C.

I am a Licensed Plumber and have worked on numerous Steam Heating systems and am a fan of Holohan and his books, most of which I have and are falling apart from repeated use.

I was called to a large home with a two-pipe steam heating issue. The heat comes up very, very slowly and some of the radiators do not heat and it's obviously something not acceptable to the homeowner.

This one had the boiler replaced by another company a few years ago.

There is a Warren Webster Return trap and Vent trap (I think it's a 023). Condensate returning to the boiler is fine and there is no water hammer. The boiler has a Vaporstat.

I'll admit, I don't have a lot of experience with Warren-Webster two-pipe steam systems and want a better education and tips to try to get the system to heat all of the radiators. From reading Lost Art of Steam Heating and the companion book, I'm wondering if the Vent Trap is not permitting air to escape the system causing such slow and poor distribution, and is there a way around this? I look at systems with these contraptions and all I think of is owning it, once I start using a wrench.

Do any of you guys have experience with these systems and diagnosis? Any help is appreciated!

Paul S_3

Try master venting the return. I believe pressure shouldn't exceed 8ozs. Have the steam traps been maintained??

Pete C.

A lot of the steam traps look new but not all. Master venting the dry return? Leave the old Webster Vent trap and just vent before it?

Is there any need for a check valve so that the vent isn't always open until steam closes it? Some of these old systems were relying on a vacuum created by condensing steam. I'm wondering if this system is the same way.

Jamie Hall

You might put another vent on the dry return…

No check valve needed. The old systems sometimes benefited from a vacuum — but not needed.

Pete C.

I can try that. I'll put it just before the Vent Trap and I'll add two main vents on a manifold. I'm not comfortable opening that Vent Trap to check on the operation of the float. I checked with Tunstall and they don't make a rebuild kit for the 023, only for the later 026. So a main vent cut-in before the old Vent Trap is what has to be done.

Have you worked on these systems in the past?

Steamhead

@Pete C. , before you do any of that, check to make sure the Vent Trap is actually venting. Remove the cap-like assembly on the top of the trap- there is a ball in there that acts as a vacuum check. Sometimes this gets stuck. I generally replace that with a Gorton #2 vent.

If that's not the problem, take one of the rods on the sight glass and stick it in the hole where the check was. If it bottoms out in an inch or so, the float inside the vent is stuck. You might be able to free it by just pushing down on the rod. If you can't free it, remove the Vent trap and install a Gorton #2.

Pete C.

Hi Steamhead. Forgive the 20 questions.

• Ok so to be sure what you are suggesting. On top of the Vent Trap (I didn't look very thoroughly I admit) there is I guess a plate that holds in a ball check that acts as a vent? Correct?
• I know this might sound silly, but if I remove that plate, there isn't anything that's going to fall down into the Vent Trap or fly apart I hope? I never worked on this so it's new territory for me.
• Remove this plate, and make sure the ball is free?
• Now you remove this ball and replace it with a Gorton or free it up and leave it in there?
• That entire Vent Trap can be discarded and replaced with piping in a Gorton #2?
• Will there be an issues with water backing up or something crazy like that?

Right now, condensate is returning fine. I have been reading up on this system and it seems that all of this crap was designed prior to Vaporstats to prevent a surge in pressure and pushing water out of the boiler. I guess with modern controls and natural gas, that isn't an issue anymore.

I know with one-pipe, I have cured countless distribution issues with proper venting. I'm not so familiar with two-pipe, traps, etc… But I want to fix this! Plus learn something.

And to all of you who answered, THANK YOU!

Jamie Hall

@Steamhead will answer more completely — and accurately. But yes in response to one of your comments, most vapour (very low pressure) steam systems had some sort of gadgetry to keep the differential pressure between the dry returns and the steam amins down to some low level — and thus keep water from backing out of the boiler, but also to keep the steam distribution even. Some — like this one you are playing with and many Hoffman Equipped systems — also had a provision to hold at least a slight vacuum as well. All this was useful in the days of coal firing, but as you note now it isn't really needed… sort of… but does no harm if it is still working.