Weil McClain Gold Oil - Water Level Issue

slowlybutsurely

Hi everyone, we have talked to 3 people in person and everyone's either saying we have to replace the coil or replace the entire system.

Here's what's happening:

We have suddenly had the need to drain off our boiler due to the water levels getting to high. This was not an issue over the summer; we had to do it every 3-7 days. Its getting cold where I am so we are running the heat more often. Now I am finding I need to drain 5-7+ gallons per night.

We've tried turning the water off to the unit to see if that is the culprit, but the water level still rose. There is an automatic water feeder. This was a huge question mark.

We have not had regular maintenance on the boiler done after moving in in 2019. I'm not sure about the previous owner.

The water does come out brown and I see some silt in the sight glass.

Including some pictures of the system for your reference.

Any idea of what could be going on? I feel like we have tried everything outside of some serious contracting work which we are struggling to find the money for.

Jamie Hall

Well now, there are only two ways that water can get into a boiler, and it can't make water on its own. So…

The first way is through the automatic water feeder. They have been known to leak. However, there should be a shutoff valve on the water line to the feeder. That is what you shut off when you say you shut off water to the boiler? You didn't just turn off the feeder, you actually closed the independent shutoff valve?

OK. Then it isn't the feeder.

The other way water can get into a boiler is if it also has a coil for heating your hot water, and I note that you do say that people have suggested you might have to replace the coil. So, check that. Again, there should be a valve from the cold water domestic line to the hot water coil on the boiler. Close that and make sure any mixing valve faucets (showers, lavatories, kitchen sink, whatever) show no hot water flow. Try them all, then close them. Does the water still rise? It shouldn't.

Report back, please.

EdTheHeaterMan

Agree with Jamie on the possible sources of that additional water. If the automatic water feed valve has a bad valve that does not close completely, then you test that by closing the blue handle manual valve. then you break the union between the blue handle valve and the automatic valve to see if there is any water leaking out of the manual valve. Oops, there is no union between that blue valve and the automatic feed valve you say? Then someone didn't read the instructions when it was installed. Cut the pipe and add a union.

Once you are sure that you do not have water from the feed piping going into the boiler, then see if you still get the water level to rise. if it stops, then you need to replace the feed valve. If it does not stio overfilling, then put the feed valve back together and look at the tankless water heater coil. if that has a pin hole in the coil, then that is where the water is getting in. To test that coil you need to close the cold water inlet to the tankless coil water heater. That will then stop the water level from rising. If that works, then you need a new tankless coil.

Both the coil and the water feed valve are much less expensive than a new boiler. as long as the boiler is not leaking water or steam, you do not need a new boiler. You just need someone that knows how to find out which of the two parts aare defective before replacing the one that is not the problem.

It would be a real ambarrassment to the guy who installs the new boiler for many thousands of dollars and not addressing the water feed to the boiler, only to find that the new boiler has the same problem. DAH! It was the water feed valve the hole time, that will cost another $$$$.

Read the tag line below. That is what I would ask my technicians whenever they suggested an expensive repair.

Also can you shoot a few more pictures of the pipes that go above this photo

And 2 more of the other two sides of the boiler. Your tankless coil must have a mixing valve and since the installer didn't read the instruction on the water feeder, they probably didn't read the part about the mixing valve either.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't see a coil but it must be on the left side of the boiler because I can see an aquastat there.

Get a plumber or a service tech (hopefully one that actually knows something).

There are only 2 or 3 was for water to get into the boiler

1. Shut off valve ln feeder bypass is leaking (if you have a bypass)
2. Water feeder leaking by
3. Tankless coil has a pin hole in it.

If you have had 3 people in and they have proven it's the coil that can be replaced no need for a new boiler.

It's a half a days work for 1 man ………If the bolts come out easily.

Tankless coils are fairly cheap.

Your other alternative is if the coil is leaking, and the bolts don't want to come out without a fight is to cap both tankless heater connections and install an separate water heater probably gas if you have it or electric if you don't. This will keep the boiler off in the summer. Have them disconnect the low limit if you do that

HVACNUT

I see the aquastat for the tankless, but I can't see the piping.

If it IS a leak in the tankless, will they spin the boiler, or remove the chimney to replace it?

I should stop being amazed at the things I see and hear, but it just keeps getting better.

slowlybutsurely

Wow this has been very informative, thank you everyone. I'm including additional photos. Issue with replacing coil is that its right next to the chimney. Someone told us it would be a couple grand to move the boiler to allow room for the coil replacement.

With these photos including more detail on waterfeeder and the piping, what do we think?

I should also add that we did replace the valve for the waterfeeder which is the blue shark wheel. Not sure if that is / was correct to test for a leak.

Very appreciative for everyone's input, this has been giving me some hope.

slowlybutsurely

Jamie, I don't see where I would do this:

The other way water can get into a boiler is if it also has a coil for heating your hot water, and I note that you do say that people have suggested you might have to replace the coil. So, check that. Again, there should be a valve from the cold water domestic line to the hot water coil on the boiler. Close that and make sure any mixing valve faucets (showers, lavatories, kitchen sink, whatever) show no hot water flow. Try them all, then close them. Does the water still rise? It shouldn't.

Where do I locate this?

Jamie Hall

I've seen submarines with simpler piping…

Yes, that blue handwheel valve should shut off water to the automatic feeder. I can't be quite sure whether the yellow lever handle valve or the blue handle valve in that vicinity is the one to shut off your hot water without shutting off the autofeeder. Try shutting both of them off… and leaving the boiler off, as that may also prevent expansion from heating the water having a place to go.

There are other ways to do this… but let's find out what is leaking first.

slowlybutsurely

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1817141#Comment_1817141

Jamie - do you mean turn the boiler off via the red switch? I've never done this before and want to make sure that this is what you mean.

Thank you again!

Jamie Hall

Or just turn the thermostat way down and don't draw any hot water. But turning it off with the red switch won't hurt anything if it's already off on its own.

I wouldn't suggest doing that if I knew exactly which valves did what. In the ordinary way, I'd just say to close the valve which is on the line from the domestic cold water to the boiler — but I'm not at all sure looking from the pictures which valve that is.

KC_Jones

"Someone told us it would be a couple grand to move the boiler to allow room for the coil replacement."

I see 3 unions in those pictures that could be disconnected to move the boiler enough to replace the coil. Someone doesn't want to do the work, or is trying very hard to upsell you.

There is a coil in the boiler feeding an indirect water heater. That should be a close loop system, but it's hard to make out all the pipes to be 100% sure. If that is a closed loop and the coil went bad, there shouldn't be any water available to overfill the boiler, unless the indirect coil also failed and is leaking. Unless I'm missing something obvious, and someone will chime in if I am.

The round blue handle is the shutoff for the auto feed, so close that first and see what happens. If it maintains water level, you have a bad feeder in some way. Theoretically you could do nothing if that's the case and just add the water manually going forward, using the other straight blue handle behind the feeder.

EdTheHeaterMan

Here is an illustration I just made for someone with a similar situation. This is how you are set up now. If your tankless coil is defective and it is determined that you need to replace it, then there is a possibility that you can just abandon it.

There is more than one way to pipe in a indirect water heater to a steam boiler. Weil McLain actually has special tappings in the boiler made for using the boiler water. here is the diagram from Weil McLain.

This is how you would connect those pipes.

Of course that will only work if your hot water tank is an Indirect water heater as shown. That means the water tank you have needs to be equipped with a heat exchanger. If the water heater is only an electric water heater that is being use as a storage tank, then you need to do the new tankless coil, or install an electric water heater, or a Gas water heater, of even a separate oil fired water heater. The last three options may cost as much or more than the repiping and moving operation, already quoted. Can you show the model number of the water tank? That will tell you if it is an indirect or not

EBEBRATT-Ed

What kind of moron would put the boiler in so the tankless coil could not be pulled? I guess the same one that installed the barometric wrong

slowlybutsurely

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1817141#Comment_1817141

OK, I've shut off both values. Sight glass is at 60% approximately. I turned the heat OFF in our house and won't use anything that calls hot water.

This should test the theory of a faulty water feeder. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. I will dig into the diagrams that folks have provided. Very informative and I appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge.

Will report back in the morning.

bburd

Keep in mind that shut off valves can leak. Especially when they get old.

slowlybutsurely

Thank you for sharing all of this. I will take a deeper look once we've begun to see results from the tests we are running.

Serial number:

slowlybutsurely

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1817192#Comment_1817192

Yes, we thought that as well. The blue valves in the photos were replaced within the past 30 days.

EdTheHeaterMan

The WB 30 is not an indirect water heater. There is no heat exchanger coil inside the tank. You must use the tankless coil in the boiler to keep the boiler water separate from the domestic potable water.

So you are back to replacing the coil or abandoning that tank for a different water heater. Tough choice. Keep your fingers crossed that the feed valve is the problem, and not the coil.

After looking at all your photos I believe these valves are what you need for testing the feeder and the tankless coil.

slowlybutsurely

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1817217#Comment_1817217

Edward - thank you for this! I believe the yellow valve is for the hot water, as I turned that off for a test last night and we do not have hot water in our sinks, etc. Would that make sense?

Regarding the test last night, I turned off the round blue valve (for waterfeeder) AND the yellow valve for what I believe is hot water, and the water level DID NOT rise.

With this update, what have we learned? That the water feeder is likely the issue?

I will need to turn the hot water valve now and I'm curious if there are any changes.

EdTheHeaterMan

@slowlybutsurely Said: Edward - thank you for this! I believe the yellow valve is for the hot water, as I turned that off for a test last night and we do not have hot water in our sinks, etc. Would that make sense?

Yes that makes sense. The yellow valve is actually the cold water feed to the water heater. (you cant get hot water out if you dont put cold water in).

We have learned that it is either the feed valve or the tankless coil.   When you turn on the yellow valve and leave the 2 blue valves off, we will learn if it is the tankless coil.  If the water level rises with the yellow valve open, and the blue valves closed off, the high pressure in the tankless coil will either increase the water level in the boiler indicating a leak, or it will not cause the water level in the boiler to rise, indicating no leak.

slowlybutsurely

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1817273#Comment_1817273

Update: with the yellow valve turned ON and the blue valves OFF, the water level did not rise.

With that in mind, it seems the waterfeeder is the issue. Do you agree?

Jamie Hall

Sounds reasonable. You can run it like that until you can get the work done — just be sure to check the water level in the boiler from time to time.

EdTheHeaterMan

GREAT!!!…. to test it for sure turn on the blue valve to the water feed. If the water level rises then you have confirmed the water feed is the problem. be sure to operate the water feed at least once so the valve can open and try to close. that is the way to isolate the problem. At least you don't need repiping and a new coil. Phew!

When you install the replacement water feeder you may want to add unions and valves to the copper tubing as indicated in the instructions. Then in the future you can do the broken union test. A lot quicker way to get this result.