Ancient Boiler System
hey guys. I need help here. I know my system is very old and much of it needs updated/replaced. I don’t have the money for that right at this moment. I have 2 zones that are getting no heat and one that is and I’m assuming that there is a valve that is closed that needs opened as the pipes are hot up to the valve. My question is, if I open the valve where the heat stops, will that mess my boiler up? Any other advice (besides full replacement) is welcome!
Comments
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Which valve are you referring to?
Note, the large red pump needs annual lubrication.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
it’s the valve right about the red pump. It looks like a large hand valve. In the second to last picture.
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Yes, that valve should be open. It's the input of your pump.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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what is the pressure
where is the expansion tank? is it an open expansion tank in the attic?are all the circulators running?
that was a gravity conversion. that is the second boiler at least.
is there just one thermostat?
more likely air than valves closed unless someone was working on the system recently but it wouldn't hurt to make syre all the valves to the system are open.
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there are three total thermostats for the boiler. One of them works perfect and the radiators heat up pretty quickly. The other two make the clock as if they are turning on but no heat to the radiators. This is the only boiler in the home, it looks like most of it is original to the 1960s. I can feel the pipes getting hot up to the previously mentioned valve but not getting hot above that point.
Background: we just purchased this home in the summer and I haven’t owned a home with boiler heat. Now that it is cooling down in Ohio I’m finally getting around to turning on the heat and discovering that the two zones do not get heat.
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Do the circulators run for those zones when the tstat for those zones calls?
The boiler could be set up warm start where the boiler stays hot all the time on an aquastat and the thermostats just control the circulators.
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so all the pumps run. The pump pictured is running but the pipes above are not warm. Do I need to turn on these valves.
Secondly, the other valve is connected from the main water supply and to the boiler. It is currently off. Should I turn this on?
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what is the pressure? the feed valve may be stuck and not keeping it filled if there is a leak
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Where are the circulator pump's wires connected to? A switching relay? Or perhaps directly to a line voltage thermostat?
The valves on each side of the circulator pumps MUST be in the OPEN position for any water to pass thru the circulator pumps. I will guarantee you that no matter how strong of a pump that you connect to a closed valve, that pump will not move any water. Think of it like going thru a closed door. water can not pass thru a closed valve the same wya you cant travel thru a closed door. To get the the other side of the door or valve, it must be open. I can't see why @PC7060 would disagree with that?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@LDS1616 , where in Ohio? We might know someone who can help you.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
I’m in the middle of nowhere Ohio. About 30 minutes south of Lima
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here is where all the wires lead as well as more pictures. It seems all the pumps are triggered by the one thermostat but no hot water is making it through 2 of the pumps.
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full run down on the house. It was built in 1926. Per our inspector when we purchased the boiler is likely 1960s. Sometime in the 1980s there was a large addition added to the home. It seems all the radiators in the addition are the ones working and the radiators in the original section of the home are not however I can see where they connect to the boiler. We purchased the home from someone who never lived here. An older lady lived here and passed in 2022. A guy bought the home and made some minor upgrade to flooring and appliances and sold to us. We are the first people to live here since 2022.
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It is very likely the system is only partially filled or has air trapped in it. turn on the feed valve and watch the pressure. if it doesn't stop filling around 12 psig, turn it off at that point.
was it either heated constantly or properly drained? it is very likely parts of the system froze if it was vacant for 2 years.
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okay. I’ll try that. Should there be a pressure reading when it is not being filled?
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@LDS1616 , first call I'd make is to @gerry gill. This is probably farther than he'd go, but maybe he knows someone closer.
Edit- can't get the link to work, but you can look him up here:
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
it should be at about 12 psig when it is cold. it will go up some when it is heated. assuming the gauge is in the right place to see system pressure
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Didn't Gerry retire?
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He's still in Find a Contractor…………
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
so I don’t think my pressure gauge is working. It’s reading 0 psi no matter how long I fill for. It doesn’t sound like it’s taking in any more water. Could it possibly be the thermostats? The two thermostats are ancient
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There is a strong possibility that the pressure reducing valve is stuck closed.
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Agree.
Close this valve and undo the plastic cap under the pressure reducing valve. Remove the screen inside and see if it's clogged with crud. Clean, re-insert, close cap and try filling again.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
The thermostats have nothing to do with the pressure. Depending on the age of the thermostats — you don't say how old they are, or what model — it is one of three options (assuming the wires are intact). They are working but not well, and cleaning the contacts will make them work. They are working (I've yet to see a mercury switch fail) (although there is a possibility that the anticipator may not be working or set right — another problem). They are dubious; if they are the modern digital type and over 10 years old, they are probably not working…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
SOS the fill valve is now leaking horrendously. How can I fix this overnight until I can have someone out?
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Shut off the water.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
shut off the manual valve ahead of the PRV
known to beat dead horses
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the boiler doesn't make domestic also, does it?
known to beat dead horses0 -
Water may keep draining out of the system until it is empty to the level of the prv after you shut the valve off. Because that is a combination prv and pressure relief valve assembly there can't be a valve to isolate it from the boiler.
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the ma I’ll valve is the one leaking. Turned off the main water for the night until I get someone out tomorrow to replace the valve.
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oh, yeah, I missed that,
the leaking valve,
but if the reducing valve is over filling, over the 30, then it may stop,
shut off the feed,
then try opening and letting the relief snap shut a few times,
maybe it seals, and you have overnight heat,
if it keeps leaking, ??
either reopen the feed, or shut the boiler down,
or call for overnight EM service
oh, wait, the feed valve is leaking(?)
NVM
known to beat dead horses0 -
after I get this valve replaced, would it be smart to completely flush the system to ensure the air is out? There is definitely air in the system as the zone that heats it loud. Sounds like I’m at the beach and the waves are rolling in.
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Do not run the boiler until you can get it filled properly. It may damage the boiler or the circulators and in the worst case may cause the boiler to dry fire and possibly start a fire.
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once the valve is replaced, how would I properly fill the system and purge air out? Are there valves I would need to open/close?
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That depends on a lot of things. What type of emitters do you have, are they cast iron radiators or fin tube baseboard or cast iron baseboard or convector cabinets or what? In a system like this you can probably just do it by opening the bleeders on the emitters until a steady stream of water is coming out, if the pressure reducing valve is functioning properly and replacing the water as you let the air out.
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Thanks for the photo of the circulator relays, the is helpful however I only see 2 of them and you have 3 circulator pumps. Where is the third pump get the power from?
Edit:
I followed the wires from the several photos you provided and believe that this is the path that wire takes.
But I can not be 100% sure. However if this is the actual path, then your Wet-rotor pump does not have a circulator relay that is operated by a low voltage thermostat. So there are two options. Either the circulator runs constantly (unlikely) or there is a line voltage thermostat in a room somewhere that operates the circulator. (more likely)
The reason this is important is so I can understand the sequence of operation of your system. It appear that your boiler maintains a constant temperature but there is one thing that scares me a little. There is a limit control that appears to be disconnected. That would be the operator control that regulates the boiler temperature. If that is disconnected and no one added a second opeating control when that one was disconnected, then you may have only one limit control that is not visible. I hope it is inside the metal cover where you will find the burners.
Which leads me to wonder if your boiler is actually safe to operate?
Can you look inside the front cover and see it there is another control that has wires connected so the gas valve will stop the burner if the water temperature gets too hot? Without a High Limit to keep the water from overheating, you have a real safety concern on your hands.
If I were on your location and found that you had no Limit Control, I would shut it down until such time that a proper limit was installed.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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thank you all for your help. I’ve found some local professionals that worked with the previous owner (older lady that lived in the home) and know the system in and out. They are coming today to help me fix the issues.
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haha, Ed, just my fat fingers getting me in trouble. Meant to hit agree! 🙃🙃
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just an update, the system needed filled and bled. It sat unused for 2 years and just needed some care.
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