99-year-old reliable (?) boiler - what would you do?
We recently purchased a house built in 1925. As far as we know, the hot-water boiler (make: American Radiator Company, model: W-15-4, see attached pictures), which as been converted to burn natural gas, is original to the house, so this will be its 100th winter in operation. Last winter the boiler dutifully warmed the house without issue. It is very quiet and we have a carbon monoxide detector nearby. The heating bill isn't outrageous, but it isn't trivial (edit: some calculations guided by Ed show that the heating bill is actually pretty dang affordable). From my uneducated and time-limited perspective, the boiler seems reliable.
I have heard opinions ranging from "replace this right away, it is dangerous" to "that thing will run for another 100 years, just let it be".
From the pictures, you can see that the boiler is wrapped in asbestos. The replacement process would also include asbestos remediation. If the boiler met an untimely demise in the dead of winter, an emergency replacement combined with remediation cost could amount to quite the bill.
So, what would you folks do? I tend towards preventative action typically, but part of me really loves this stalwart kettle. Anybody have any guesses as to the difference in efficiency we would see if we replaced with something like a Burnham X-2?
Comments
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Get someone there with a combustion analyzer and find out the efficiency #’s.
Probably on the 60’s!
3 -
Well, you won't get a century of service out of anything you'd replace it with.
Figure that Ideal is running at 60% or so efficiency, and a new boiler would be in the low 80s. Is that 20% going to cover the cost of a new boiler over its 20 year lifespan?
I'm more of the "if it ain't broke " mindset.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
2 -
That boiler looks great. And there are very few moving parts that make it operate. Mainly the limit control has something that expands and contracts as the temperature changes, As does the original thermostat (if you still have that) and the gas valve has a coil that is an electro-magnet the opens the valve when everything is cold and closes the valve when things heat up. That valve coil makes the main burner gas turn on and off.
Any new equipment will have electronic timers for ignition and combustion, circulator pump to move the water that needs no pump in your existing boiler, a combustion fan, and all sorts of limit and pressure switches to monitor when the gas should burn and when the gas should stop.
By the look of that Honeywell Gas Valve, you have one of the safest standing pilot controls available. That valve is replaceable with standard off the shelf parts you can source locally of on amazon.com.
So your homework is to take the cost of the 2 or 3 free estimates for a replacement boiler and compare it to about 30% of your annual gas usage. (the gas usage for winter only, not the laundry, cooking or hot water). To get that number for heat only use your lowest gas bill and multiply by 12. Call that number X. then take a years worth of gas bills and figure out that total. Call that number Y. Now deduct X from Y and that will be your heating gas usage bill. Multiply that number by 0.30 and call that S1. That is what you will save with a new heater in one year. Multiply S1 times 10 and get a total of 10 years of savings. (That is savings not adjusted for inflation). Compare your 10 year savings to the cost of the new boiler. If the boiler is a lower cost, then replace the boiler. If the boiler is a higher cost, then keep the old boiler.
I selected 10 years because most new boilers will last between 17 and 30 years with an average of about 20+ years. So that leaves you at least 10 additional years after you have recovered your initial investment to actually get a return on your investment.
Unless you only plan of being in your home for a few years…. that will skew the whole thing
Edit: The savings of 30% are conservative. I know from experience that you will save more than that. I have done that job with both Atmospheric cast iron boilers and with the new modulating condensing boiler. The savings will be more like 40% with the Cast Iron, and closer to 50% with the ModCon. The problem is that the job is so expensive between asbestos abatement, scrapping the old iron from the site, and building the proper near boiler piping for the replacement, It ain't cheep! If you are into DIY, then you are better off with a new boiler. If you are going to pay retail, then you need to seriously look at the numbers.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
5 -
That's not 20%, it's 38% more efficient to get from 60% to 83%
60 * 1.38 = 83
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
2 -
Personally, I would get it past the century mark before deciding anything.
8 -
You have a hand fired coal boiler that has been converted to burn natural gas.
You have huge amount of thermal mass in the boiler and radiators you will never have that in a new boiler unless you add storage on the return header entering the boiler sump.
Have the gas burner serviced and cleaned for now and leave the system as is.
2 -
Thanks for all the information, Ed.
I ran the numbers that you described. It costs about $500 dollars a year to heat the house with natural gas (I thought it would be much more). Let's be generous and say the replacement yields a savings of 50%, so $250 in savings a year. The replacement cost would need to be $2500 to pay itself off in ten years. That is far less than what I've been quoted so far (it would be about 44 years before we'd get a return on investment). I don't trust my DIY skills enough to do the job myself.So, from a savings perspective, I'd say the decision is pretty clear - keep running the existing boiler.
5 -
Agree with your decision @muvvin. Everyone has the great success story where there was a customer with a $5,000.00 per year heating bill, then after the new equipment saved them 30% annually, and figured in the cost of price increases, the total 10 year savings came to over $18,000.00 and the new boiler was only $8,000.00. These prices are dating me… I know that a new boiler is at least double that today (if done right).
But you don't have the ultra high heating bill. I tried to talk a customer with an oil boiler just like yours, into new equipment, but come to find that they only burned 300 gallons per year. The numbers did not add up in favor of replacement. You just need to look at the numbers.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
You should flood it to make sure it isn't leaking above the water line now(if it is steam, i can't tell if it is steam or hot water from the pictures) and know who you'd call in the middle of the winter if it does somehow fail catastrophically. Typically if you are looking for leaks they start small so you have some time to replace it when the time comes. Someone did put a modern gas valve on the burner.
0 -
I do love it that they accurately called it a “water heater” and not the inaccurate term “boiler”
But you asked what we would do, and I would replace it at your convenience
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
0 -
Lone Watie, from "The Outlaw Josey Wales" had a quote about Rock Candy that I think fits here in a weird way. "But it's not for eatin'. It's just for lookin' through."
1 -
As an owner of a residential American Standard Boiler circa 1964 ( I believe American Radiator merged with American Standard) that continues to run just fine, I agree with advice to keep it. Note the life span of new boilers are a fraction of that of older boilers (a little more than the average refrigerator is my guess). I would add, as mentioned on this site many times before, very few HVAC technicians are qualified or educated in steam for proper boiler installations. Thus, you face another nightmare if replaced - just sayin
Regards,
RTW
1 -
I don't fully agree with you @ethicalpaul. I am only speculating about the retail price of a replacement boiler. The "Water Heater" type of boiler. LOL
- A replacement at retail level pricing will be more that $$,$$$ and can go much higher.
- The annual fuel usage for heating is $500.00
- The expected savings is about $200.00 annual.
- The simplicity of the moving parts is much less than the lowest cost boiler available today.
- The only reason the replace is if the boiler starts to leak, and there is no sign of that happening any time soon.
So unless you have that crystal ball that says that boiler is going to fail on December 12. 2024, (or some other mid winter day) what is the upside here?
You know there is a bridge near you that is well over 100 years old, but many drivers still use it. Would you just replace it because it is old?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
3 -
As I said earlier
Get a combustion analysis done.
Then you’ll know the efficiency and can tell if replacing it is worth it!0 -
So, what would you folks do?
They asked, I answered
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I would probably run the old timer if your gas bill is truly $500/year. But I also would start putting money aside to replace it.
I would also have the asbestos on the boiler tested. It looks to me like it has already been recovered. Most of the time a boiler will not catastrophically split open and leak. More likely to start seeping slowly but you never can tell.
3 -
Do you shutdown the boiler during the off season or just let it stay on in idle mode?
Reason I’m asking relate to the water capacity of the boiler; the old boiler in my house had 40 gallon internal tanks and calls for heat engaged the circulator pump not the burner. The burner was independently control by a aquastat kept the water at 160-180F range regardless if thermostat is calling for heat. If you don’t shut it down in summer the gas bill would include the idle cost of the boiler ($50-$75) .0 -
At a $500 yearly cost for gas, I think there's nothing to be done from an economic perspective. 1) If you have a gas water heater for DHW, the method @EdTheHeaterMan gave you probably overestimates your heating costs, as your incoming water temp is probably dropping throughout the season. My old water heater used like 10 therms/month in the summer and like 20-22 therms/month in the winter. 2) The gas-to-toasty-room efficiency you actually achieve is very dependent on the total system design - my circa-2015 oversized CI boiler + baseboard system cruises along at <50% efficiency most of the time.
As long as you don't have a hard time finding people willing to service it, enjoy your historical boiler and maybe tighten up your house some if you'd like to reduce your fuel costs a bit.
1 -
I had no idea gas could cost only $500/year.
A house that burns 1000 gallons of oil costs about $3500 to $4000 a year
1 -
“I had no idea gas could cost only $500/year.”
Depends on home location, size and insulation but $500 seems low. I have a well insulated home with high efficiency mod-con boiler running a low-temperature profile. Coldest months I’m running $220; figure my entire heating season is around $900-$1100
0 -
PC7060 “I had no idea gas could cost only $500/year.”….
By: RTW I would conquer with above comment and add the Elephant in the Room in this post is $500/year??? Does the OP live in Arizona?
Regards,
RTW
1 -
*concur not a fan of spell check
1 -
We recently replaced a 75 year old boiler. A lot of the ancillary systems were failing (zone valves, heads, ball valves, Beckett oil burner from the 1980s…). We didn't fix everything but we called the oil guy enough.
It was cheaper and easier to rip out the old system and replace everything at once. That was a no brainer.
Oil bill is much lower. Summer shows the biggest fuel savings for hot water. Plus, the basement is much cooler, reducing AC demand.
0 -
I am estimating based on a logical assumption that there is a minimum usage during the non heating months that reflect the Gas Dryer, Water Heater, and Cooking. but is is only a estimate.
This typical gas bill shows a bell curve that indicates what the heating system uses. But you can make statistics tell you any story, depending on how you present them. Politicians do this all the time. So I'm not saying it is accurate, just more accurate that the SWAG method many folks use based on someone else's savings that may not happen in this case.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
2 -
@EdTheHeaterMan For sure, it's a good estimate, but depending where you live, the winter-time increase in DHW gas usage caused by dropping incoming water temp can be surprisingly large from the double-whammy of needing to heat the water more to get it to the same temp, and then needing to use more hot water to get the shower/bath to the same temp. I mainly mentioned it because I was so surprised how large it was for my location (outside NYC). If you have pretty constant water temps the seasonal change will be negligible, it's just location dependent.
2 -
Mine is not a gas boiler but my circa 1960 Crane Sunnyday was replaced in 2006 with a 3 pass cast iron oil boiler. It cut my oil consumption 30% in the first year. I went from burning 950 gallons per year to 640 and when I installed my indirect DHW it cut another 80 gallons of oil off my annual consumption. So on average I burn 570 gallons per year for heat and hot water. I live in northern CT .
2 -
You can just look at the incoming water temp and the finished water temp in the bath/shower, you don't need to think about the changed mix ratio, the delta T and the flow of the shower/bath will tell you how much energy you need to add to raise the temp of the incoming water. From there you can guess at the efficiency to figure out the input energy.
1 -
I am not a plumber or HVAC person, I do not play one on TV, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night. That said…
If you have an emergency, install another system, reroute the plumbing as necessary, and leave that old beast to rest in peace. Why remove anything in an emergency? Is that not an option?
Again, not a pro, so there may be some parts of this I am missing.
2 -
My wife and I bought a house with an old American Standard Radiator Company Red flash soft coal boiler. The house has been sitting vacant since 2013, we closed on it 9/2020. We installed a Burnham 84 (idk the exact model), also replaced 5 radiators and just recently switched out aluminum baseboard (installed by previous owner to make it look like there was a heating system) with Bel-ray cast iron baseboards. The coal furnace was cracked and I just took it for scrap last week (sad day but couldn't find a front section or someone to get it back in service) , recently sourced a Burn rite (aqua-gem1100 coal boiler with hot water hookups (which I'm not using). Would I need to get it zoned or something? I mean it has an aquastat, and an auto damper (I think), it's not plumbed in yet. My old gravity fed system, my dad says that I should get the system changed out to a single mono-flow valves for each radiator and single feed line loop? If I'd use the existing chimney for the coal furnace, could I power vent the oil furnace for a separate chimney? Would that meet code? Plz help last year we burned roughly 650-700 +/- gallons (+/-150 gallons I don't remember) we live in western PA on top of Appalachian mountains an old double plank not well insulated house but even with no heat it stays relatively warm in here. I just want the coal boiler added to the system for backup? I don't know why you can't have both furnaces going to the same chimney if only one is running at a time ?
0 -
love old gravity beasts. That being said, stand back from boiler and take photo so we can see bottom to 2 ft above boiler in one photo. Want to see what ancillary components there are, also back of boiler flue to chimney connection.
In my estimation, I would get a seasoned boiler tech with good combustion tuning skills in there and do a good once over clean and adjust of boiler/burner. You should 1st have asbestos properly sealed and repaired by certified asbestos abatement company. At same time have them clean few feet of supply and return piping and around flue connection for emergency replacement in future if room adjacent to old boiler. The pilot line and thermocouple should be relocated to proper location through burner housing. There is no way to get pilot out right now for cleaning or repair. without disturbing asbestos (pretty sure it is asbestos). After pilot removed burner packing could be sealed up where hole was made in it.
This all would provide you with a serviced, tuned up boiler and hopefully a prepped piping system for replacement in the event of quick replacement needed. I normally see a 20 to 30% savings with high efficiency boiler replacement on these systems, about 10%-15% less savings with cast iron conventional boiler. With high efficiency your maintenance goes up, I have done 10 yr historical maintenance/ repair studies on our systems and the maintenance repair costs often wipe out the savings over your old gravity beast. Substantially less maintenance/repair on cast iron.
These old boilers were what our company was started for. Started delivering coal & sawdust in the 30s, then worked on oil burners and when gas was introduced started doing gas conversions for the gas company. A very long history with these elegant workhorses. Up till this year still maintaining and sometimes (if we had to) replacing these wonderful creatures.
Hope some of this helps or at least a fun read.Good luck
Tim
6 -
If fuel bill is truly $500 a year leave it. $500 a year sounds more like a monthly cost looking at that boiler.
Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
1 -
About your heating system, plumbing code does not allow a single chimney to share two heating systems.
Is there an open to air expansion tank in the attic or on the top floor of your home or are the radiators used as part of the expansion system by trapping air in the top of each radiator?
Do you have this DS aquagem1100 boiler now? You have to have a low water cut off switch like the B+G/McDonnel and Miller RB-122-E which is a direct immersion Low Water Cut Off Switch per plumbing code.
Please go to the Heating Help Bookstore page here on the forum and purchase these books; CLASSIC HYDRONICS and HOW COME?. These well written books will help you with your heating system.
0 -
If the boiler is operating safely without issues. I would keep it. My 1937 Ideal boiler No. 7 purrs along beautifully. My home still has its original gravity system in place and it works beautifully. My most expensive monthly gas bill was $230 last season (when we had that polar vortex). That gas includes the boiler, water heater, stove, and fireplace. My home has excellent insulation levels in the walls and attic.
I do all my own maintenance which mainly was just vacuuming out the soot last year from years of built up from the previous elderly owner not having it ever cleaned, and oiling the accessible cast iron sections (per 1937 American Radiator Care Manual I have) . I bought myself a combustion analyzer off Ebay to test monthly during the heating season and this baby comes in with an AFUE of 77% with practically no CO which only means it burns very clean and even. I love this beast, so much so, I even repainted it.
Do not fear your boiler. HVAC companies will swear you need to “get rid of that old thing!” or its “DANGEROUS!”If you are in central/south eastern Michigan, I would be happy to visit with my combustion analyzer. A lot of HVAC companies here DO NOT even own one. Everything is sales based these days, not actually fixing. Smh
-Willie5 -
You should create your own new post and include pictures versus asking a loaded question within someone else’s post. You will get a much better response.
-Willie2 -
If you have soot and gas your combustion is awful. As the kids say "this isn't the flex you think it is"
Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating2 -
Actually no, bought the house early last year (2023). That was from decades of no cleaning by the previous elderly owner. Two medium sized buckets of soot removed and the gas burners cleaned well. Operated all last heating season with a clean blue flame and clean as a whistle still. Ready for 2024 heating season!
I will continue to “flex”. Thank you. 👌🏾-Willie1 -
@TheUpNorthState88 I have a 1937 boiler that hasn't been cleaned since the 1950s when converted to gas from oil. It has no soot nor does the 1919 H.B.Smith. for your safety please get that fixed.
Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating0 -
@Charlie from wmass As stated, there was no soot accumulation after deep cleaning it last fall and using it all last winter daily and it is burning clean and efficient for a 87 year old boiler. Jumping up to a new boiler will only get me a marginal bump in efficiency up to 80-82% for something that will NOT last maybe even 10-15 years with $1000s in upfront cost.
This is once again why I bought my own combustion analyzer to test it monthly during operation and know that things are operating safely. In addition to CO/Smoke/Explosive Gas detectors. All of which I have and once again, test monthly. My results below are not “Perfect” but many other experienced (and honest) tradesmen here (and other circles online) have already told me these are decent figures and they are actually quite amazed how well it operates for its age. For comparison, Ive heard the same “It’s probably 40% efficient, get rid of that dinosaur!” messages a 1000 times, and it’s not. Actually testing it proved it is not.
Me and this boiler plan to be around for a long time. Thank you for your concerns though. That’s why I love this group here.
-Willie2 -
Is it a water system? If so I would think about adding a reset control to throttle it down during the warmer weather. Is it steam? Make sure the company is well versed in marrying the new to the old. (Read Dan's books and most importantly read the "funny" directions)
This thing will run until it doesn't without much change in efficiency. The parts are readily available for the most part.
Don't forget to factor in maintenance and service to the new equipment. This can really add up.
2 -
Here is a totally heretical approach. Switch to a ground source heat pump with a heat exchanger.
1
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