New Boiler and air in lines
I had a new boiler installed two days ago. We used my existing indirect hot water heater since that was only 2 years old. I have some images attached. Those are the best angles I can get since my garage is full of stuff behind me. Hopefully it's a clear enough view of the setup.
The guys were limited in space on that wall since there will be a new well tank going in there that is much taller, so I had them stay clear of that area above the existing well tank. This manifold goes off to the side, not like our old one that went up.
There are two separate problems. Air in the lines after some time. Also, the middle circulator pump has gotten locked up several times causing a high heat limit lockout when we turn on the house heat. It locks up right way, maybe a min or two.
The air keeps getting back into the lines over the course of a day. The boiler is mainly running for the domestic hot water right now since that works but gets noisy after a while. The install guys have come back twice now to purge the system. He was turning a specific valve off and on to try to coax the air out of the spirovent. At one point on the last visit he did hookup a hose and purge the system a bit. When he was done is sounded pretty good, maybe 95% better. That was this morning. My wife is telling me she can hear it again when I asked her to run some hot water and go check in the garage.
These installers are not leaving me high and dry yet or anything, but I wanted some of your opinions of what it could be. We did not have this problem of air in the lines before. We had a functioning heating system before replacement. The only reason we replaced it was because the system was old and never properly maintenanced by the previous owners.
The middle pump was replaced today also, but the new one locked right back up. It's a Taco 0015e3. It was flashing white, which means it was air locked. With some valve twisting on and off we can get it to finally run, but at startup it gets locked up. The installers are putting a call into Weil-McLain to get some guidance. We even talked about putting another spirovent lower for the indirect hot water heater, but that seems more like a bandaid to a problem that is not diagnosed yet. I don't want to do that.
Is it as simple as a leak somewhere? We do not see water anywhere. Can there be an air leak with no water dripping? Could it be in the indirect hot water heater? Can we drain the system and do some type of pressure test? I just want to know what I should ask them to do before they start treating the symptoms and not addressing the actual problem.
Comments
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You really need to purge the system. What that is is finding a drain somewhere, and then rigging a hose to feed water at volume under pressure into the system from the "other end" (which may simply be the other side of a closed valve.
Easiest to see if the drain can have a short hose into a bucket, so you can see any air bubbles coming out. Then arrange various valves as needed so each section of pipe gets that full flow of water and keep it up until you see no more air bubbles. Move onto the next and so on. Then tighten it all up again and bring it up to pressure.
The air vent — spirovent — might do it… eventually… someday… maybe… but a purge is needed.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Yup, they did that during the first fire up. It was multiple purges for a good deal of time. They also did it a bit more the second day they came back. They purge it to a point where it sounds almost perfect. Then by the end of the day more air somehow enters the system. It winds up sounding horrible again. Very turbulent and sloshy sounding.
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They didn't do much of a purge, because there are no purge valves. The piping is… interesting… and the boiler circ is on the wrong line, but it should be okay once it actually gets purged. I'd imagine there is air at a higher level which is not being purged, so when you turn up the thermostat, it pushes the air down and locks up the circ. Bottom line, it needs an actual purge or a whole lot of half-asked purges/bleeds like they've been doing.
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You have to elaborate for me please. There are purge valves, I have them circled in this pic attached. He did an actual purge several times. He also did what he called "exercising the valve" to try to get some air out through the spirovent.
Please tell me more about the boiler circ being on the wrong line.
Right now the heating side sounds great. No air noises and it seems to be running fine with no high heat limit lockout. I am assuming because all the air is out on that side and the middle circ is not getting airbound like it was before. I have only run it in the morning a few times since there is a warm weather lockout setting that is in there. The problem that remains in on the hot water side. There is a ton of air there. When it calls for hot water the boiler itself is making all sorts of gurgling and sloshing sounds, and the larger bottom circ is also sounding like there's tons of air passing through it. I get hot water though and the boiler isn't throwing any errors.
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On another note, I do not understand why he put a reducer here and below as well that is not stainless like the unions there. They look like they are black pipe. Isn't this going to corrode and get all crusty and be a pain in the butt years down the line?
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Those bushings will be fine as all they will be seeing is boiler water over the years, as far as the air issue maybe they can cut in a spirovent on the indirect loop as well to help eliminate the air.
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That is what I originally asked them if it was a possibility. They said they might do that. Then I was asking myself if that is a bandaid to some other underlying problem. I mean, the one guy bled/purged the system so well one late morning that both sides of the loop sounded perfect. Then by the end of the day and early next morning, more air found it's way into the indirect side. Doesn't that say something is wrong? Air is getting in somewhere. Sure another spitovent might mitigate it, but shouldn't we find the root cause?
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Those are not purge valves. A proper purge setup would have two of those boiler drains (or similar) in the same pipe only a few inches apart, with a shutoff valve between. It's impossible to do a decent purge with the valves that are currently installed, which is most likely the reason you are having the issues you're having.
Regarding the black iron bushing, it's of zero concern. As long as the system is leak free and there isn't regular oxygen intrusion from new water, that bushing will outlast you and I. The dielectric union it's screwed into, however, will almost certainly corrode and become a headache sometime in the not-so-distant future. These installers obviously don't have a lot of experience in this type of system, but once that air works itself out, it should be okay for awhile. Next time they come back, I might suggest that they provide you with a printout showing that the combustion has been tuned to the spec in the manual. Seeing the work they did here, I'd be quite surprised if they did any sort of combustion analysis- this is a very necessary step for maximized efficiency and proper operation.
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Got it, thank you for the information. Is something like the the correct thing to have, and if so how many and where do you suggest it goes on my setup? Can it be put in place of that bottom boiler drain or should it be up higher, or both? The more information I have the better I know what to say to get them to solve this issue.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Webstone-H-88615-1-1-4-Press-Full-Port-Purge-Fill-Ball-Valve
These were pre-soldered onto those easy-up manifolds that they use. How do the actual pros do it? Do they make there own custom manifolds and just not use those types of unions?
I already know that this will never happen. I am at a loss of what to do next. I am too far in with them and have no real leverage for them to take any such steps. This whole situation is very upsetting for the amount of money I put into this.
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Have you just turned your thermostat all the way up and left it to run for a couple of hours?
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No I have not. I feel like there is more too it now with the missing purge valves and boiker circ pump on the wrong line, but I can try early tomorrow morning when it's cold enough in the early hours.
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one more thing, not about the air issue,
the condensate neutralizer,
the outlet should be spun up, so condensate stays in the neutralizer, and gets neutralized,
known to beat dead horses
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Those Webstone purge/fill valves are awesome. I think the easiest at this point would be to get a threaded one and screw it in place of that dielectric union on the lower/return port of the boiler. Those "manifolds" are something I've never seen before, but they do not serve a useful purpose here so getting rid of a short section where the dielectric union is would be a wise idea in my opinion. That would allow you to purge the boiler and indirect loops separately.
Since they did not install a valve between the closely spaced tees to the right of the Spirovent, you'd have to add a second purge/fill in the upper loop to purge it- however if the circ is being relocated to the return line as it should be, it might not be a bad idea to add a valve between the tees or replace that section with a Webstone purge tee. That would allow the heating loop to be purged with the single purge/fill down at the boiler return, by simply closing the valve (same principle as the purge/fill valve) and essentially creating a series loop for purging purposes. I put both of those items in all my primary/secondary multi zone systems.
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Can you explain this one to me? I tried my best to research. On my old boiler the boiler circ was indeed on the return, but the manifold Weil McLain makes specifically has it on the supply. Take a look here, this is the manifold being used. It is setup to be on the supply from what I can tell.
And if you look on page 44 on this installation manual, they also seem to have it on the supply.
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This piping is difficult to see but I suspect that some of the fittings are potable water and the pipe that enters the photo from the bottom right and exist at the center top is the closed system boiler water return.
The next thing that I wish to point out is the expansion tank. Either the manufacture put the label on upside down, OR the installer installed the tank upside down.
But the final thing that I would point out is that, although there are lots of fittings and convoluted paths for the water to travel, It appears that the sequence of components from boiler to DHW tank and boiler to radiation is according to the manufacturers recommended piping. That said, the system will be self purging once the space heat is turned on. That is because the micro-bubble air eliminator is located on the space heating loop. As long as the DHW is the only part of the system that is operational, the "self purging" design of the system is not eliminating any air from the system.
The convoluted ups and downs of the DHW side of the system will be more likely to retain air and collect air from other parts of the system. Over time this may be the reason you are having this temporary air problem.
Is there any possibility that you can operate the space heating system for several hours after the next purge?
In order to understand the whole process of the self purging design, you need to study Boyle's Law on the physics of how air and water react to changes in pressure and temperature. A good book the get to understand this concept is called "Pumping Away" available in the store ion this website, or on Amazon.com. But I suspect that you don't really want to know the reason why, You just want it to get fixed. Take my advice and the advise of at least two others who posted above. Just run the heat for several hours and see what happens.
Final Edit:
looking at the manufacturer's piping design, the boiler circulator can be piped on the supply to the system loop or the return from the system loop. So the pump location has nothing to do with your air problem. This should be obvious because that pump does not operate for DHW operation.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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It does appear that you're correct, they do allow it on the supply. However the point I was trying to make is that with a wall hung boiler like this (my mistake, I am not familiar with the Evergreen in particular) always has a high pressure drop and is better to be pumped into rather than out of. Every other manufacturer suggests pumping toward the unit when piped as primary/secondary but I was wrong here.
At any rate, if you're not able to get the system bled by running it, some purge valves will need to be added.
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A few hour, maybe just 20 minutes of a raised system pressure and high temperature run with simultaneous space and DHW heat call (jumper) and the DHW tank dumping heat will purge that air out fast. Be sure the pump checks are present and working right, that can make things weird.
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To implement @Teemok's suggestion you may need your contractor to use a Jumper. You want the DHW to call for heat. That will make the boiler work at high temperature. Then you also want the space heat (system Circulator" to operate at the same time (not a normal condition) by applying 120 VAC temporarily (4 hours or so) in order to have the high temperature water flo thru all three, Boiler, DHW and the System pumps at the same time. This will allow the self purging design do the job of eliminating air from the system.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Installers can offer lots of " I would have done it this way". I like air separators where air in the near boiler system might collect with the system off. In this case moved up behind the top distribution pump. It will work fine where it is but small placement changes sometime creates a self purging system vs not. I don't like the system return temperature sensor (if that's what it is) placement. It should be away from the close Tee's to the right by a foot. Facing the pumps to the wall instead of spinning the motor/ junction box and the condensate neutralizer mistake speaks to the experience of the installer. We all have to learn, it's a good effort. Once the air is out good programing might be the next thing to look at. Edit: I see purge ports were I could get a good purge but it's not the best. Start ups are sometimes difficult under strained conditions. Confirming stable operations, tuning and programing often doesn't get the full attention it needs.
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Here is a better view of the piping on the back of the indirect hot water heater.
As for the upside-down expansion tank, yes, this I had pointed out originally to the guy. The installer assured me this was fine. He was trying to leave room for the new well tank that was on its way there below. I looked up the specs on the expansion tank and supposedly you can mount it vertically either way, just not horizontally without some special additional support. Hopefully this won't be an issue.
For running the heat for several hours, I will and I am. I ran the heat for about three hours this early morning. I have a smart thermostat so I set it up to run at about 4:00AM this morning. The heat works, it was pretty hot in the house. At around 7:00AM I opened up a faucet running hot water and I went out to the garage to see how it sounded, and it was the same. At points it sounds kind of ok, almost fine, then the gurgling comes back with a vengeance. Like there is a pocket of air somewhere even though that loop is quite short I would imagine. I uploaded a video here for you guys to listen, the audio is the main thing to pay attention to. This is an mp4 file that is zipped up. It seems I cannot upload videos here.
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I love learning new things, I will definitely look into this. Can you recommend a good book for learning about boilers in general, systems like mine specifically? YouTube only offers so much, and I would love to know all the ins and outs so I am just better informed and prepared for the years to come with this new system.
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So I am going to reach out to the contractor later today or tomorrow depending on the answers I get here. I am going to outline some stuff that I will ask them to change, so please feel free to let me know if I am missing anything or wrong about anything. Thank you all in advance for all your help, I truly appreciate it. This is all based on the suggestions made so far:
No
Change
1
Add purge valve, baseboard heat loop
2
Add purge valve, indirect water heater loop
3
Add spirovent, indirect water heater loop (maybe)
4
Rotate condensate neutralizer
5
Rotate expansion tank (maybe)
6
Rotate housing on circulator so motor and label faces forward
For #1 and #2, are these locations acceptable for the new purge valves? I already know they won't cut into that pre-made manifold. I am sure it will void whatever warranty it comes with from the manufacturer. If it is as simple as replacing those drain valves they would probably be more willing to do it since it won't be a major undertaking to cut and press those in. If there are better locations, please let me know.
For #3, would this be a good location to add another spirovent if I really even need it after a proper purge? Again, I am looking for easy spots for things to change so they won't push back too much on doing it. If there is a better location, please let me know as well.
#4, that's an easy one. I would do it myself, but I don't want them coming back at me saying I am messing with their work somehow and blame me for something.
#5 I called Watts and verified that upside-down is not a problem. I might not push on this one unless you guys think it will come back to bite me later.
#6 This should be done. I just worry about their capabilities and if I am asking for more trouble if an inexperienced guy starts messing with the internals of the circ. I don't know… should I just leave it?
If I can get answers to #1 and #2 specifically, I can call them and start the process of convincing them to take care of all of this.
As for all who mentioned jumpering the system to run both zones simultaneously for 4 hours, that all makes sense and will most likely work, but again, if these guys haven't done it before I would be worried about some other problems arising in the process. Also, when the system gets maintenenced every few years I do not want to have such a hard time purging the system each time. I think the purge valves are the answer for the future as well… maybe the additional spirovent too.
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Sensor placement?
IMHO removing the hose bibs and replacing them with ball valve style ports will do little.
Achieving a self purging near boiler system is ideal but not necessary for it to work properly.
The top pipe connecting to the indirect tank goes down then back up to the tank port. This creates an air bubble trap in the tank heat exchanger and at the outlet of the DHW pump (check valve in place). That air locks the circulator. Once all the air is removed it won't be a problem till something is done to introduce air again. Knowing how to properly purge that loop is key. When air is introduced for some reason or another in the heating loops the air can migrate to the DHW air trap location and the problem recurs .
Adding an air separator where you point to wouldn't fix the air trapping. The top 90 (boiler outlet) above and on the back (suction side ) of the DHW pump is a better location if a second vent is going to be added. I might remove the PRV and put a brass T there with the PRV on the side of the T and a simple air vent on the top.
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Ok, I forgot that one.
No
Change
7
Move sensor on return
And the additional spirovent location has been updated.
So no purge valves to make life easier in the future? They won't help simplify the purging process at all?
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#3 is a 1/8 standard taco vent. Not a spirovent.
You could put purge ports in other spots but the check valves in the pumps make the purge water flow paths limited.
Purge DHW heat exchanger: Boiler off . Hose to hose bib #2 Run hose to a bucket or sink or outside. It will spit and whip when air comes out be prepared. Close the ball valve to the right of #2. Lift the fast fill lever on the top of the system fill valve (B+G upper left on 1/2 pipe) until system pressure rises to just under 28psi then put lever back down. Open the #2 hose bib wide open fast. System pressure will drop and purge flow will slow. Close #2 hose bib and lift the fast fill lever again staying under 28psi as before. Re-open #2 fast. Repeat high pressure build up and release till no more air comes out of the hose when #2 hose bib is re-opened. Close #2 hose bib and open the ball valve to the right of it. Turn on the boiler and use DHW to force the system to make domestic hot water.
You may not need to do this but to be very sure there will be no more air problems I recommendation: Raise the system supply water temperature to the highest that's safe for you emitters. Call for space heating to get the whole system hot and power the DHW pump at the same time and let it run for 20 mins. If you can't figure out how to get all pumps on together. After the system is hot use all the hot water in the tank to force it to make DHW. If you do force the DHW pump on the DHW tank will likely get too hot so open a sink faucet to get rid of the heat. Your boiler might have settings that allow both DHW and space heating simultaneously. The tank sensor can be pulled and faked cold to call for DHW production then put it back in the hot tank to let space heating run again then pull the DHW sensor and chill it again to go back to DHW production.
The physics of what this does is a bit to grasp so lets just say high temperature water gets rid of air easier and turning on all the pumps at once mixes all the system water so the spirovent can do it's job. After 20 mins return all temperature settings to normal and de-power the DHW. Your installer may have their own way to achieve this. It doesn't matter as long as all pumps run at the same time and the system gets as hot as is safe for you system for at least 20min.
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@sonnaps said: "For running the heat for several hours, I will and I am. I ran the heat for about three hours this early morning. I have a smart thermostat so I set it up to run at about 4:00AM this morning. The heat works, it was pretty hot in the house. At around 7:00AM I opened up a faucet running hot water and I went out to the garage to see how it sounded, and it was the same."
As I read this statement, I am seeing that you are trying to do what is needed however it will take very long doing it this way. That is because the Weil McLain circuit board will never allow all three circulators to operate at the same time. There is software on that circuit board known as DHW priority. What this means is that when there is a call for hot water, the boiler circulator will stop sending low temperature water to the system. the system circulator will also stop operating. So the DHW tank will get the full gas input to charge the DHW tank. The idea is that when you are using most of the gas to heat your home on a cold winter day, and some of the gas to heat the tank at the same time, the tank may run out of hot water while you are in the shower. And no one wants to take a cold shower!
By shutting off the space heat side of the system, all the heat from the boiler can be directed to the DHW tank as soon as there is a call for hot water. Once the call for hot water is satisfied then the circuit board will allow the space heating circulators to get back to work. Since hot water demand is usually less that 30 minutes, and the house temperature will not drop that much in 30 minutes, this feature rarely caused any discomfort in the living space.
Now that you have a cursory understanding of the Weil McLain control, you will see why I indicated that you need to "JUMPER" the space heat and the boiler pump at the same time as the call for DHW from the tank. You will need to do this for several hours causing the hot water to get too hot and the house to get too hot. That is also why I suggested that your professional boiler service department do this procedure. I don't expect you to know how to jumper the circulator pump motors to do this procedure.
Another idea is to add the Spirovent where you indicated just before the DHW circulator. This way there is an air purger where it will do the most good on the DHW circuit.
Also. you do not need to remove the perfectly good purge valve setup, in order to install the Webstone combination valve. That would be like removing brand new spark plugs from your brand new car, just because someone said that this other spark plug is better. No need to do that until such time as the purge valves on your boiler system fail to operate properly. (which may be never)
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Just to clarify one point, location #3 (where you indicated) is not a good place for another spirovent or any air vent. Ed is correct about clearly recommending your installer / service person should be the person to understand and attempt the 3 circulator high temp air purge. I should have said that.
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To clarify @Teemok spirovent location. this is what I mean as far as locating the vent between the boiler supply and the pump inlet. Thanks for the clarification Teemok. Doing this will eliminate the need to do the circulator pump jumper thing
And as far as #6 is concerned, no need to rotate that pump. the flange bolts are accessible and the wire box is accessible. What more do you need?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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If needed, For service tech programing change:
Make priority 2 defined as a high temperature no ODR set-point call.
Assign DHW pump position output 1 to priority 2 add pull the DHW sensor wire from input 1 and add jumper wire to activate.
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Spirovent as ED detailed OR the PRV move with T and vent modification, not both. I don't think you need either if a proper purge is done. The all pumps on w/hot run is optional but might be overkill if a simple good purge gets things moving. The air will leave the water once the space heating is used for a while and the DHW tank has made a few batches of hot water
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This is perfect, thank you to everyone. I think this will do and I will be prepared now to speak to the contractor.
One last question, can someone tell me the logic behind moving that sensor over at least a foot to the right of those double tees? Is it too close to the supply on that left tee above the center boiler circ? and the reading won't be as accurate as it should for the return temperature?
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One last question, can someone tell me the logic behind moving that sensor over at least a foot to the right of those double tees? Is it too close to the supply on that left tee above the center boiler circ? and the reading won't be as accurate as it should for the return temperature?
Correct. you want to measure the return temperature, without any mix if water from the boiler loop
That is because there is a possibility that the boiler pump may pump more GPM than the System pump. If that happens the closely space tees may have hot boiler water going backwards there. You don't want to measure that temperature.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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are you sure the Spiro is working? Any air or water drips coming out if it? They can hang up inside
If air circulates down to the room, the Spiro should grab it within a few hours
Should be a high point vent inside the boiler, is it working?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
air problems can sometimes be mitigated by, raising the system temperature, raising the fill pressure, or speeding up all the circulators. Id try all three.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
I think it is… I mean when they first set everything up and there was air in the baseboard heat side, the spirovent was hissing and doing it's thing. The installer did keep opening and closing certain valves which would help the spirovent purge a bit of air each time he did it. He was somehow helping it along. I have them coming back Friday. I listed all of the items of concern in an email. Hopefully when they come they will be prepared to fix everything.
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Can someone tell me if there is something different to use besides another spirovent in that location in question? Is there another type of vent that does the same thing that they might try to push on me? They are coming Monday so I just want to make sure they bring the best possible solution with them and the proper fittings and parts.
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The "need" for a Spirovent (micro bubble remover) or any vent there is questionable. Many boilers of that type have factory fitted simple auto float vents or even manual vents at the top of the heat exchanger or piping that helps remove trapped start up air. You need someone who can start up that system properly. A vent at the PRV location or up high before the DHW pump, may help but the DHW pump will likely still air lock if there is enough air in the DHW tank heat exchanger. That air must be removed. Manual purging as I detailed above is how to do that. Not all systems self purge. This is not a flaw. The need for good purging is typical with hydronics systems.
Knowing how to purge both the DHW loop and the space heating loop is valuable knowledge. If ever air is introduced into the system from a repair or servicing and the tech fails to get it all out, It may air lock. I understand if you don't want to be able to do it but in that case you will have to rely on others to get it circulating again.
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