Trouble getting an Air-to-water heat pump for radiant retrofit in Virginia
In western VA (below West Virginia) I can't find an HVAC/Mechanical contractor willing to take the leap and be first with A2W monobloc heat pumps. As a retired mechanical engineer with enough expertise to run PEX, install heat spreaders, baseboards, fan coils, etc., I'm a bit frustrated. This may have to be a modified DIY job with help from skilled friends IF I can get my hands on equipment and controls at a reasonable cost. (I have Manual J loads and a recent energy audit with blower door to address envelope issues and sizing for this 1965 leaky ranch house over basement.). Basically, contractors say "you want what??" and when they understand more say "we don't want to take the risk with what we don't already know. There isn't a lot of hydronic work/skill in this area anymore. Note: for several reasons, I don't want mini/multi-split systems.
Any suggestions on buying A2W HP equipment directly or through a third party and taking on the risk myself?
Comments
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@DCContrarian is your guy. But yeah, you’ve chosen the expensive and niche path here for sure.
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Join the club. Lots of talk about them from companies but not much product on the shelves yet. At least on this side of the pond.
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Most of the companies selling air-to-water systems will sell direct to homeowners. I know Chiltrix will. They're in Chesapeake, VA and I've driven down from DC to get pieces from them.
Will your jurisdiction let you do a DIY install? The actual install is about as complicated as a water heater. It's the engineering and design that's the hard work.
There is a Chiltrix user group on Facebook that has a lot of knowledgeable people.
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Where are you located in Western VA?
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
Answering Ironman and others: I'm in Blacksburg VA; home of Virginia Tech; I spent several years there as facilities engineer/manager/director for a research institute. I've talked to Chiltrix in the past and got some encouragement, but I didn't have load numbers then. My weakness is controls so I'm reluctant to get locked into proprietary controls without local expertise and support. I think I can manage most everything else. Moved to this house in 2020 to have a ranch house for aging years. Unfortunately we relied on a home inspection "professional" who missed a few things (crawl space/structural issues). I knew the original owner and thought I knew what I was getting, and for the most part I did. We have an old Carrier heat pump retrofit with the air handler & ducts in the attic & aluminum wiring to the air handler/heaters; those all have to go away for sure. I have already upgraded outside and inside electrical service. A related quest is to find fan coil units I can hide above closets, etc. Radiant ceiling retrofit for cooling or heating would drive my wife crazy, but the basement is my domain.
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I’m near Staunton. Blacksburg is a little out of my range.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
Have you asked the Manufactures?
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Several manufacturers I've corresponded with or called have referred me to wholesalers who say they will only sell to contractors - except Chiltrix. Some say, let us find a trained and qualified contractor in your area and later say they don't have any there yet (Enertech, for instance, who actually called around and and couldn't find a contractor willing to take their training to qualify, even though some already do geothermal). Sometimes you hear nothing back, even from area reps. I'm pretty sure I could buy from a Canadian brand, but months ago when I talked to one they quoted unaffordable freight costs. I haven't talked to every manufacturer/rep/dealer. Local LG wholesaler knows about their new product but apparently can't get one. [My vision is that someday there will be many monobloc installations with appropriate infrastructure inside and a robust/competitive supply chain. If an outdoor unit dies and local techs can't fix it, you just swap it out (almost plug and play like a window ac unit)…but I won't live that long.]
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It’s path dependency. Forced air dominates in the U.S., especially as you leave the northeast. What business wants to make a product no one buys and no one installs?
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"A related quest is to find fan coil units I can hide above closets, etc. "
This is a common sticking point. Where the air-to-water units really shine is that you can put a small fan coil in each room and get micro control over the temperature for both heating and cooling. What's disappointing is that since air-to-water is niche in the US there's not a lot of availability of fan coil units, and the ones that are available tend to be visually disappointing.
The fan unit has to be designed for cooling to be used that way. Hydronic cooling is very common in commercial buildings, but the air handlers for those tend to be enormous compared to residential. Three tons would be a small one, where in a bedroom you might want a quarter ton.
Some of the people on the Chiltrix user group have direct imported units meant for the European market, where they are much more common. The easiest way to get them is to order off of Alibaba.com. This one is popular:
As is this one:
Since they are meant for the European market they run on 220V, the controls are in Celsius, and the fittings are BSP (British Standard Pipe). None of those are obstacles that can't be overcome but they're things to deal with.
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Alibaba, a website I wouldn't ever trust enough to purchase anything off of if it was the last website in existence.
Notice how it redirects you to the app store just by browsing to their site on mobile. Any guess as to why that is? I'll give you one.
Not knocking the products, I just wouldn't ever steer anyone to that site.
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Also on the European models — does the power frequency difference matter? It just might — the EU standard is 50 hz, the north American is 60 hz.
Not to mention that grey imports of the kind suggested have no warrantee at all, other than if the dealer is a nice guy.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Without a contractor in the area why get equipment that no one can work on?
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After mucking around on the internet way too much, I'm dismayed at the dearth of small concealable hydronic fan coil units available from US suppliers. As stated previously, I'm looking for single-room units I can install above closets, etc., and discharge through the wall, for cooling and secondary heating (after radiant heat). It seems there is no lack of supply from China and what may cost $1500+ from a US or Canadian source seems available "direct-from-China" for about $300. Cost is a serious concern for me but I'm an old guy and I don't want to go the Alibaba route if I can help it. I've looked for a US importer/stocker of Chinese products to no avail. Does anyone on this forum know of any such distributors? Another possibility I have pursued is any companies who may refurbish and resell fan coil units of this type; again, not much luck. Same results from looking for HVAC-Surplus/salvage or used equipment. Any suggestions?
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The "direct from China" route always looks so attractive.
Until you go to install it and service it. Are you up to the complete installation job? Once it is in, are you skilled enough to service it? If not, don't even think about it.
Even if you do find an importer willing to shade the trade enough to get the cheap stuff in, they won't install, they won't service, they won't warrantee.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Maybe try Solar Panels Plus in VA. He seems to find odd ball products to import for solar and HVAC projects geared at DIYers
Attend the AHR show there are dozens of companies from China looking for import possibility. They seem to lead the world in HP products, and have exactly what we need in the US market. Not many rep firms are willing to take the risk importing products from unknown manufacturers in China. Quality control, for one, is not always high on their list of manufacturing processes.
Or you may need to shop sites in the UK or Europe for more selection of fan coils also.
You are correct in that there seems to be both extremes in those small units, the high price engineered products, taking advantage of being first on the market and keeping prices up. Or the bargin knock-offs.
Not enough market developed to attract the domestic coil manufacturers yet, I suspect.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Thanks for the reference to Solar Panels Plus. Though I've talked to Chiltrix I was unaware of this sister company in Chesapeake VA. Chiltirx FCUs are not cheap and the hidden installations I have in mind are a bit different than their models, though they may be adaptable. I do have the skills, with a bit of help, to install these things and service them but if I have controls issues I may need more help. ** On a slightly different tangent, I have stumbled across a person in WV who has an extra 3-ton air-to-water HP and a buffer tank, ordered from China. He has installed two of these in two houses (his and a rental) successfully, using staple-up radiant heating and FCU cooling. I am waiting on documentation, which he says is "adequate" but not thorough. HP control seems basic but similar to Chiltrix (HP to buffer tank). Though this could save substantial $$$, I know if the HP/control set breaks I'll be stuck. I'm questioning the risk vs. savings….
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Then again even the biggest brand names have left installers hanging when they pulled out of the market, like the Altherma.
With a knock off, you may have both parts availability and anyone willing to even work on it. So bone up on refrigeration & electronic troubleshooting. None of us here will be able to predict the lifespan of any no-name imports
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
doesn’t
Mitsubishi’s
Daykin
Fujitsu
all make air to water heat pumps!
Along with several other manufacturers.Why get equipment that you can’t get parts or tech support for?
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It's the small, affordable, room by room H&C air handlers that are not so common.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
A lot of manufacturers have announced residential air-to-water heat pumps, very few are actually delivering right now.
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If it makes you feel any better, there is a similar problem with mini-splits, that a lot of people find the surface-mount heads visually unacceptable, and the built-in heads are hard to find and not always available.
With hydronics you have the advantage that it's much easier to mix and match, the head doesn't need to communicate with the heat pump and so long as there's a flow of water any brand is going to work with any other brand.
Since there is slightly better availability of mini-split heads, one of the ideas I entertained was buying a concealed mini-split head and retrofitting it to use water as the coolant. But that's more extreme than self-importing.
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Thanks again for feedback. There are a few fan coil unit makers even in the US, but their stuff is much bigger than needed (e.g. MultiAqua in SC). I'm looking for those quarter-ton capacity units. Considering what a FCU is - coil, fan, control, drain pan, enclosure -I've even thought of building them but that's a dream I don't have time for.
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US BOILER ambient hydronic heat pump (nominal 60kbtu) seems to be a new one from a trusted source. Im surprised it hasn't been discussed here since, well, burnham and you guys on the wall go way back!
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That's very interesting!
Installation and operation manual is here, includes performance curves:
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/catsy.782/Ambient+HPS+Manual+Catsy+Placeholder.pdf
The dual-fuel feature seems well done, that is one of things people are always asking about.
Any indication whether it's actually available to purchase? There are a lot of products announced that aren't actually on the shelves at distributors. LG did a big rollout of their air-to-water product, even had it featured on "This Old House,' but when I inquired it wasn't actually available.
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Thanks! Yes, I knew US Boiler had announced their line of A2W heat pumps. I like that it's R32. Ironically, the company I allowed to quote a Trane Air-to-Air system (as a cost benchmark) is listed by US Boiler as their "Pro-Partner" in this area. They declined to consider installing an A2W heat pump; never done it…..
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Nice. Interesting that they have it using a plate hx. And it does not have a reversing valve which means no option for cooling if you have coil units.
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Oh! No cooling. That doesn't work in VA.
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Any experience with Blue Ridge Company in Washington state? I was recently referred to them by Myson for buying Myson fan coil units. [Myson's VA distributors reference on their website is Ferguson Showrooms but when I talked to an experienced Ferguson central HVAC sales staff member, he had no idea who Myson was or that they represented them. As an end user, Ferguson couldn't sell to me.]. Besides Chiltrix it looks like Blue Ridge may be the alternative for DIY sourcing and hand holding.
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With a combustion boiler a BTU is a BTU, but with heat pumps you have to worry about two things as the temperature drops — the capacity of the heat pump drops, and the efficiency (COP) drops.
I like to look at those two factors. With the introduction of the US Boiler heat pump, I thought I'd update a couple of graphs. The first is capacity vs outdoor temperature. Since the heat pumps all have different nameplate capacities, the vertical scale is percent of rated capacity.
The four heat pumps shown are the new US Boiler (from https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/catsy.782/Ambient+HPS+Manual+Catsy+Placeholder.pdf),
The Chiltrix CX34
The Arctic 035ZA/BE
And for the sake of comparison I included one air-to-air heat pump, the Mitsubishi M-Series. Data from:
https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/34583/7/25000/95/7500/0///0
Note how the Mitsubishi does a much better job of retaining capacity. The Arctic is in the middle, and the Chiltrix and the US Boiler are similar.
The Arctic only reports numbers for a water temperature of 113F, so for the sake of fairness that's what I used for the Chiltrix and the US Boiler. The Chiltrix in particular is meant for lower temperature applications and does better with cooler water.
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Second chart is COP vs outdoor temperature:
I'm going to throw a couple of asterisks in here. First, the Arctic only reports three numbers, one of them is 3.1 at 19F, which is the yellow ball. I think that's an error, looking at where the other yellow dots are. If you take that one out the yellow line would be pretty much in a line with the others.
Second, the Mitsubishi, blue line, is a vapor injection model and unlike the others it doesn't have a straight line, it's really two lines depending on whether VI is enabled. It typically kicks in around 20F, and COP suffers while capacity is retained.
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Thanks to DCC for such comparative detail. I'm well aware of the loss in capacity at cold temperatures and it is worrisome. My winter design temperature is 12F @ about 51,000 BTU/H (Cooling about 28,000 @ 90F). I'm impressed with the data detail and transparency of Chiltrix but I've found it more difficult to find for others with limited time/attention. Blue Ridge handles Arctic but wants to sell SpacePac instead (and I want R32 instead of 410A). At my design loads just mentioned, the Chiltix CX35 seems ok for cooling but too small for heating, and the CX50 still too small for design heating at 12F and too big for cooling. Nothing is simple but I need to get on with quotes and design concepts. It seems a bit difficult from a first cost perspective to use two CX35s in tandem, but I'll have to look at one or two with a propane boiler for backup.
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At 12F the Mitsubishi will have about 94% of its rated capacity and an air to water will have about 50%. If you need 51K BTU/hr, you could get that with a 3-ton Mitsubishi and a 2-ton Chiltrix. Use the Mitsubishi for all your cooling in the summer, use the Chiltrix for your primary heating and the Mitsubishi to supplement when it can't keep up.
This Mitsubishi unit is rated for 37K BTU/hr at 5F:
https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/34584/7/25000/95/7500/0///0
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Have you looked at the Jaga units? On the surface they look appealing, I gave up on them because I just couldn't get any usable information out of their website. But you seem good at ferreting out the details.
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Made good progress with Myson after calling them in VT. Tried with Jaga but no distributor in VA; one in NC who I haven't called yet. The NC distributor does not list Jaga on their website. 😑
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I'm going to talk to a local Mitsubishi contractor and see what they propose. I know from references they are good but more expensive than other loal HVAC contractors. Meanwhile, I'm going to ask Chiltrix and Blue Ridge to quote hydronic packages.s. I'm beginning to feel like Sisyphus: rolling that boulder up the mountain but never getting it to the top.
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DC,
Since you are the keeper of the graph, would you mind adding the 5 ton Gree Versati unit to it. Output in kW is on P19 (Heating Capacity Correction_16) and the COP is on P25 (COP Correction_16).
For the OP. I got the unit through a distributor of Dettson, don't know if they have a distributor in your area.
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OK, I've updated the graphs to include the Gree and also Space-Pak, which I got a request for in a PM. Spacepak comes from https://www.literature.mestek.com/dms/SpacePak/CC32-0624.pdf,
I used the data for maximum output, water temp of 113F, like the others.
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Here's COP vs temperature:
Again, take the Arctic line with a huge grain of salt, they only provide three data points, two of them are basically the same as everyone else, one is way off and makes their whole line look better, I can't help but suspect that middle data point is a typo. If it were 2.2 instead of 3.2 it would be more believable.
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This is what the chart looks like if the Arctic number is "corrected" to 2.2.
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