Beckett AFG: It's WORKING! But ... Why was it before, and is it correct now?

Mizamook

I think it's fixed. But is it? That's why I'm asking now. I've read so many posts on these forums and others, and never got around to submitting my own query … partially because there are details I'd never finished figuring out. I'll tell more about hte system and its history with me (last 5 years) later, but for now, I have a system that works, and I'd like to know why it worked before .. and what changed, and, of course, is there anything I should worry about, either with regard to the upcoming winter, or whether there is any "unsafe condition" I should rectify.

I was having lockouts (again!) and this time, with great regularity, I'd get a lockout if the system hadn't fired in a few hours. But if I was there when it tried, and pressed the reset, it would fire right away. Every time.

The controller is a Genesys 7505, powering a Beckett AFG on a System 2000 EK-1, with a Sideshot extractor flue.

Here's the funny thing: I'd replaced the old controller (R7184A 1075) with the 7505 after I "fixed" the old one when the Sideshot had an issue, before I learned how it worked.

The burner does have a solenoid. But the solenoid, motor, and ignitor were ganged together, therefore bypassing most of the controller's functions. It was like this when I got the house, so I wired the new controller to match.

I thought the oil pump (Danfoss) was bad, or leaking all of a sudden, as I'd been getting more and more lockouts.

Yesterday, I thought to myself that the fact that it fires EVERY time after a 3-second lockout is reset, maybe the controller wants … (ahem) more control. So I wired it so that the motor, ignitor, and valve are on the appropriate connections from the controller, and primed the pump (which STILL does not show a proper prime as I understand it) and FOOM …

Instant success. After a full day of several firings each several hours apart, I find it interesting now that the burner lights INSTANTLY when the motor starts. Before, it took a second or two of the motor running (pumping oil) to fire the burner.

Now, the sequence is: 1. Call for heat, 2. Sideshot spools up, 3. "click" from oil solenoid, 4. burner motor starts, instant ignition. Boiler operates as expected from then on.

What I do NOT have is: Confirmed good prime on the pump, the oil in the tank (above the burner which is in a basement) is approx. 250 gallons remaining of 500, new filter, electrodes new and nozzle new last year, filter primed, no info on CO or O2, no draft readings, no info on pump pressure.

Whaddya think? Should I just say "Golly! It works!" and leave it alone?

SuperTech

I think you should call a professional who is trained on Energy Kinetics boilers and familiar with setting up power vented oil burners. That boiler needs to be setup witn a digital combustion analyzer and tuned for proper operation or you will get lockouts. What you posted already is very concerning and leads me to believe that no one who knows what they are doing has been working on this boiler.

You need a lot of expensive tools and training to properly work on oil fired boilers and the Energy Kinetics boilers are setup differently than your typical boiler. The side shot power vent is another issue, I almost never find them setup correctly. Unfortunately this is not DIY territory.

Iceman62

It could be possible draft to high over fire , or combustion chamber glowing due to no post purge on burner.

I would recommend a trained tech and also switching to a Carlin Promax 70200 Primary Control, with each component wired correctly. Also setup with digital testing equipment.

JayMcCay

Hi Mizamook

Any "heating professional" should be able to service the boiler but, give me a call 908 328-7154 I would be happy to provide an Energy Kinetics dealer near you to evaluate and do the necessary adjustments and setup.

Jay

Mizamook

Thanks for the "get a pro" comments. I know that. No can do. I'm not willing to spend the many hundreds/thousands on this system/instruments as we are hoping/planning to replace it with a hydronic heat pump in the next year or two. For now, therefore, I can continue DIY-ing it as I have over the last 5 years, for a couple more, at most. It is possible that we will keep it as backup. (the heat pump and Energy Kinetics will share the same manifold and piping, with bypass valves and appropriate expansion tanks for each)

In the meantime it can't be locking out from over firing/draft … it was only locking out BEFORE it fired, after significant rest period. This lockout condition was a new development, after having been working fine for months after the replacement controller. I cleaned the screen in the pump, but did not replace the o-ring (my new one has not yet arrived). Losing prime and/or weak pump was the only thing I could think of … the pressure gauge I can use for the pump's adjustment also has not arrived yet.

The controller was replaced after I let the smoke out of the old one, when I was learning about how the Sideshot operated. It was the proving switch that was the problem … I found a "good, used" one in the boiler box of random parts, and after vacuum and continuity testing it, installed that, and all was well.

To confound recent lockout issues, last week I noticed they were getting more severe … and one moment it simply would not get power to the controller/burner at all (the proving switch and relay circuitry in the Sideshot interrupt the power to the fiery part of the system, all the while continuing to operate as power vent). Turned out that the meter aperture on the proving switch had a rubber cover/plug. Looked like a squirrel had gnawed it, allowing vacuum leak (we do have many bad red squirrels). That was easily fixed and I was back up and running with a baseline "it works fine as long as it had been run in the last hour" lockouts.

So it is not post-purge, really … but the Sideshot continues venting for several minutes after the burner shuts down.

And if the Sideshot's action before firing can be considered pre-purge of sorts, then there's no issue, perhaps. The burner and heating functions properly. My only question is whether the instant firing when the burner motor starts (no pre-purge proper) which is bizarre to me, since it IS connected properly. I should make a video of it firing … I'm sure it's showing "burner flame on" light within half a second of the motor spooling up. How is that possible, and why does the controller allow it?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Mizamook

The above posters gave good advice you would be wise to follow it.

Oil burners can be dangerous if things are not working right.

But it's your house and your family.

Mizamook

Eek. I guess I posted in the wrong forum. There are COUNTLESS threads on this and other similar forums of people having issues and asking for help, and obviously DIY-ing, especially after many "trained pros" either messed things up or didn't follow through, or notice stuff.

If I were asking for help with an issue, that would be one thing. I'm not. I'm asking for help understanding why I'm not having an issue.

Do you guys see the difference? Geez.

HVACNUT

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1807147#Comment_1807147

What did Jake say to the Penguin that got him smacked with the yardstick?

Jamie Hall

We do see the difference. And most of us really do know what we are doing, unlike most of the YouTube heros.

OK, that said. Without putting hands — and meters or test lights — on, it is a little hard to say just what is miswired and what is set up wrong, if anything, in the 70200. Something clearly is, or there would be a small delay between the blower spooling up and the oil solenoid valve opening to allow fuel in. But what, of the many possibilities it is, would be very difficult to say without actually troubleshooting the system.

I could make some guesses, and so could the rest of the folks, but we don't operate on guesses.

Mizamook

Once I get my pressure gauge I'll have one set of numbers .. a potential answer to why my system started having the lockouts, which prompted me to rewire the system "properly". I've put in a request for the only guy who comes close to being a pro, to see if he has the Beckett 1404312 Contractor Tool … else I might buy one. That will answer some of these other questions.

We are not talking here about draft and overfiring or ignitors or gap setting or nozzles or anything … it's not related to any of that, although I would like to have that checked with combustion analyzer … I have to wait until it's a priority … the system is firing exactly like it was when I got it (it was installed in the 90's … I've replaced the nozzle, electrodes (using Z-gauge), filters, burner motor, burner control, hydronic circulator, and Sideshot fan proving switch as each failed or exhibited symptoms.

I did adjust, as per instructions in the Energy Kinetics technical literature, the burner input shutter, to "minimal detectable smoke) which was a small adjustment. I always mark things before I change things, so I do know where it was set in case I notice something amiss. The smoke level, soot level, and burner run time/cycle are all in "normal" range from what I've read and seen.

Right now, I'm going down to inspect the system again, re-check my wiring and also make a video of it starting, so I can get that timing.

I understand your position … I've been on that side of things too …

JMWHVAC

The Genesys 7505 has adjustable settings for various setups. If you have an oil solenoid on the system but it fires immediately, I wonder if it is set properly for your equipment.

mattmia2

If you tinkered with the pump or the pressure you need to use instruments to set up the draft and the combustion for r the new pump settings. Adjusting the pressure is something that unquestionably requires a competent oil burner tech.

Mizamook

All the wiring is as it should be. My model, the Beckett 7505A, comes from the factory with 0 seconds pre purge and 0 seconds post purge.

If I get a Beckett Contractor tool I can change this. So … it all makes sense now EXCEPT FOR:

Before I rewired it, there was obviously no pre-purge or post purge, nor was there any delay in opening the valve … the solenoid, motor, and ignitor were wired together, so that if one was on, the others were too … yet it always had a delay in firing before (varied) but when cold, usually about 2 seconds. This is what I'm trying to understand.

If my local guy does not have a Contractor Tool, I'll buy one.

OK, here's a video:

https://youtu.be/MBK70XyoM5I

Jamie Hall

The variable, short delay in firing which you mentioned above is completely attributable to the time it takes from when the oil pump starts to build pressure to when there is sufficient oil density near the ignition electrodes to fire. That length of time you mention is exactly what I would expect with a system wired or configured so that there was no delay on the oil solenoid, nor any pre-purge.

With the wiring and control settings you mention it is behaving pretty much as i would expect it to. Not, mind you, as I would want it to — I'd want a 15 second pre-purge and at least a 15 second (preferably 30 second) post purge.

Mizamook

Thanks. That's what I'm thinking as well. It "seems right" to my senses, but I'd prefer pre/post purge. A $100 tool will give me that ability.

Whenever I make a system change, I observe it through many cycles over a day or three before leaving it alone in the house, or at night. Since it's summer now, we are using it only for comfort boost and hot water, so it's easy to have it in "safe mode" (that is: OFF) when I'm not present to respond.

If it turns out we can keep this system long-term to function as backup/augment for the future heat pump, then I'll seriously start shopping for my own combustion analyzer.

On another note, in the list of items I've replaced, the CAD sensor was replaced even though the old one worked … but its resistance was borderline, so in effort to shotgun as many potential faults, considering that the system was installed in 1991 as far as the records indicate, it was time. The rest of the system has some issues … like replacing leaking gate valves and such, but in general it seems pretty solid, and heats the house except for when it's really cold. : )

HVACNUT

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1807160#Comment_1807160

Could be. If the OP got the 7505A when the burner has a DOV, then he needs the B... and a pro.

BDR529

Proving switch, verify 1st. Specific EK only.

Don't condem controls for doing their job

Mizamook

Just popping back in here to offer a bit of closure on this subject as well as a public "Thank you!" to Joe Szwed and Energy Kinetics for the incredible after-the-sale customer support on a system that is over 30 years old.  Joe had reached out to me in response to the posts in this thread, found that I was living in a tiny remote town in Alaska with no recourse to HVAc pros, and showed indomitable patience with me as I asked "why?" to almost everything he suggested, and now the system is running much much better, more efficiently, and much safer, to boot.

Trying not to bore you all with too many details, but Joe pointed out several things that were blatantly wrong about the system and worked with me to help me set it up correctly ... I had no idea about these issues since the system was, in essence, set up and running as it was when I got the house 6 years ago. (And we wonder how long before that!)

~A few notable details include replacing the burner primary control with a Carlin 70200, as that gives me onboard control/data without having to buy the Beckett Contractor tool (the Carlin was cheaper than the Contractor tool, so an easy choice).
~The puff switch is now reconnected (it had been bypassed before) to the Blocked Vent inputs on the Carlin.
~The incorrect T&P valve, which had been leaking for years, replaced with a correct pressure relief valve, and the failing expansion tank replaced as was the suspect pressure reducing valve for the feed, a couple old bleeders, etc.
~The incorrect high limit aquastat has been replaced with a new aquastat of the correct type.
~The extra "band-aid" clamp on aquastat is removed (it was serving as high limit, since the other one could not have been working right!)
~The system return temperature has been increased from 130 to 170 which made a huge difference in system effectiveness, as well as reducing potential issues due to condensing.
~The EK1 has been opened, inspected, and cleaned out, as has the flue.  No real issues noted other than years of build-up which, frankly, I thought would be worse.  The flue has been reassembled better, and draft has been corrected to within specs set by Energy Kinetics. (so the puff switch didn't cause lockouts, which it was due to low draft, so that's why it was likely disconnected by a previous serviceperson).
~With my new TPI smoke pump and TPI 709 combustion analyzer I set the burner correctly, and double-checked, to the specs recommended. 

I do believe Joe is satisfied with my results, my growing functional understanding of the system, and we both feel that it is going to prove more efficient and much safer than it was set up when we started.  The system will work better until we can integrate the heat pump as planned, and due to the construction of it (and the fact that replacement parts are still available!) I can keep it going after the heat pump to use as backup heat and augment the heat pump if needed … well into the future.

Deep gratitude for all the detailed emails and patience.  Joe Szwed and Energy Kinetics have shown what real support is!

Additional kudos and thanks to James Altom at Arctic Technical Services in Fairbanks, Alaska, for twice giving me more than I deserved in helpful information on the phone when I called to order parts.

Over and out.