Tankless Coil Bolts vs Heat Induction Tool = Success?

FredoSP

Hi All,

I was thinking about using one of those Heat Induction Tools (Flameless) to get those favorite 🙄 Tankless bolts cherry red and attempting to back them out. Things I've seen online look promising from an automotive perspective, and was thinking this could help me.

I have been spraying all six bolts 2x per day with PB Blaster for the past week. I'm trying to give myself every opportunity and not join the broken/snapped bolt club.

Does any have any thoughts, comments or personal experience?

Pictures are for reference. Curious on what every ones thoughts are.

Intplm.

I hope it works. It should. Please post your results. Put some never seize on the threads when you put it back together.

ratio

Bolts, or nuts? If you heat the head of a bolt up to red, I think you might just get the head of the bolt off. Maybe heat it up & quench it once or twice.

I've never taken a tankless coil out, but if it were me I'd keep up with the PB, rap on it every now & then with a hammer, & after a while try with a cordless impact (¼" with a socket adapter, not a big ½" drive one).

EBEBRATT-Ed

There is always a drill and a tap as a last resort.

HB Smith used to make there CI boilers with a flange cast into the section so you bolted the coil in with nuts and bolts. You could always get them out easily by twisting the bolts till they broke or by cutting with a saw or torch.

I don't know why other boiler MFGS never copied this method…….Yes I do it cost $$$$$

They could do it by tapping the boiler section with a pipe thread and using a close nipple and a standard pipe flange and then make the coils to bolt to the pipe flange but that would make too much sense.

LRCCBJ

The induction heater will certainly break the bonds of rust between the nut and the stud.

However, a torch, if one is patient, will heat the entire stud (or cap screw). When this occurs, the stud (or cap screw) lengthens slightly. This unloads the nut and will certainly improve the odds of success. The hotter you get the face of the stud (or head of the cap screw), the greater the odds of success and acetylene is your friend if you are careful. Note that the stud will cool quickly once the torch is removed…………..so be ready for the attempt.

I also agree with the use of an impact gun, HOWEVER, if it is too large you will instantly snap the stud (or cap screw). Patience with a low power gun is a virtue.

FredoSP

Thank you all for the input. Just to clarify, I have BOLTS and not nut/studs. I was also kicking around the idea of using my MAPP gas + Oxygen setup that I purchased as a kit, maybe a brazing kits is what it's called? I figured the induction would be quicker and maybe more effective but the heat is probably more concentrated around the coils at the end of the induction tool.

I was going to stay clear of any impact gun and was thinking about using a line wrench and tapping it slightly with a hammer to get a the bolt to move free, then keep heating it up and spraying PB blaster, tightening and loosening the bolt until it comes out. This will be a weekend project and will report back.

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1807078#Comment_1807078

Or just install them with anti seize.

mattmia2

BTW, just heating it hot enough to dehydrate the oxide will loosen it up, the expansion and contraction helps but the main action of the heat is that it turns the oxide from a hard hydrous crystal to a soft anhydrous powder. The question is if it is a bole how far the heat penetrates.

HVACNUT

If coil bolts give me trouble in a CI block, I'll try to TIGHTEN a little first. Then try CCW. If no good, I'll heat the CI around the circumference of the bolt, not the bolt itself. Then take a heavy flat chisel and Lump hammer and tap the flats of the hex heads all the way around. That usually works for me. But there will be some that you'll be cursing as you walk back to the van to get the T&D set and grinder.

IF I have to tap, I use a little Zoom Spout oiler on the bits as I'm drilling. Start small and increase the size slowly.

mattmia2

The key is to know when to stop turning harder too. If it doesn't turn in one direction try the other, try back and forth, try hitting it with a bigish hammer. Maybe even use a torque wrench if you don't have a feel for what is too much. Use a 6 point socket so it doesn't distort the bolt and distributes the force evenly as it turns it.

BTW real cutting oil works a lot better for the bit and the tap than light machine oil.

FredoSP

UPDATE 8/11/2024

Its was ALL good, until it wasn't.

HVACNUT

Spray it, tap it, and get some Vice-Grips on it.

Or try an Easy-Out.

STEAM DOCTOR

Easy out is worst case solution. Heat, spray, tap, heat spray tap.....

FredoSP

8/15/2024 UPDATE

I won!! 😀 I sprayed some PC blaster, got it cherry red, more PB Blaster and then I hammered on a 7 mm bolt extractor and used a 1/4" drive socket. I'm glad I picked up this set up .. just in case.

FredoSP

Would anyone recommend that I chase the threads? I know its a 3/8" - 16

DCContrarian

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808061#Comment_1808061

Just see if a bolt goes in without resistance.

mattmia2

use ss or brass for the new bolts and use anti-seize on them

HomerJSmith

I would re-tap the holes.

Superzilla is suppose to work better than PB Blaster.

ethicalpaul

I'd say you had the rust gods smiling on you that day. Just one broken bolt is amazing.

FredoSP

The new Peerless coil came with SS bolts and a gasket.

I can get the bolts in with my hand but then it starts to get tight. I haven't tried with a socket yet. I think I see some rust on the threads in the cast iron. I do have a small brass pipe cleaner thing that I can put on the end of a drill to get the rust off the cast iron threads. Thoughts?

Larry Weingarten

Hi, Rust can be hard/brittle sometimes. I'd use a tap to clean the threads, just don't screw it in hard enough to remove metal. 🤠

Yours, Larry

FredoSP

8/18/2024 UPDATE

All threads had been chased and sprayed with WD-40 when I was doing it. It got out some rust and gunk. I then sprayed the bolt holes with brake clean and took the air compressor to make sure it was 100% clean. All bolts thread great! Now comes time to install my new coil.

I put a generous about of anti-seize on the bolts and got the gasket in place. Slide it in slow … oh no, why aren't the bolt holes lining up? Maybe I have it upside down, although the words "IN" and "OUT" should be in the correct orientation. I took out the coil and put it in upside down and its still if off. What's going on here??

I then compared it to the old coil and everything was same with respect to the length but what was strange was the way the new copper coil was oriented. I was surprised to notice it wasn't as "tight" and "uniform" as the old coil. I purchased this online from Oswald Supply, which is a local place in the Bronx, I also like give my business to a family one. I also noticed that the coil had some dents in it and some dirt marks. I'm wondering if this item was a previous return?

Note: It does slide in 95% of the way, just the last 1/2" to 1/4" is the issue, almost like it's getting hung up on something.

I'm going to post some pictures below to see if anyone can help. And YES, it is the correct part # because I still have the brochure from 1992. Part # X-1019 that has now been superseded to 90532. What am I missing?

Long Beach Ed

Looks like you'll be callin' Oswald, like the last guy who returned the coil did. Bring the old coil and see if they can match it up. Always a problem working with old stuff.

But usually people wait until the end for January to do this.

FredoSP

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808270#Comment_1808270

OK good, at least I know I'm not losing it. Just my luck, I'd either get a return or a defective one. 🤬

HVACNUT

What's the model of the new coil?

The diameter of the new coil plate looks at least an inch wider than the old. Or is it just the picture?

According to the book, it should be an X-1019 or X-1020.

The WBV coil plate should be 8 in. diameter.

FredoSP

Both plates old and new are the same diameter 8.25" across, I think it's just the way I took the picture.

The book says X-1019 and that's what the sticker says on the new coil. I have a three section peerless, oil fired.

FredoSP

More pictures .. Notice the the sides of the coil are flat? That wasn't from me, unless it happened during shipping.

mattmia2

Might be how the machine grips it to form it. is the old one like that under the corrosion?

FredoSP

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808286#Comment_1808286

No, the old one does not have those "dents"

LRCCBJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808276#Comment_1808276

There is a complete lack of any concentricity between all the coils on the new unit. Therefore, if the boiler housing is tight to the coils, you must deform the coils in order to install it. Notice that you have already developed some flat spots on the outside of the new coils when you tried to get it to fit the boiler………..which it doesn't want to do.

The new coil is manufactured haphazardly to save money. The old coil was manufactured properly to ensure that all the coils are perfectly concentric with each other.

The part number is likely correct. It's the manufacturer who is producing garbage……….yet again.

FredoSP

I 100% agree. The coil was shipped to me with those flat spots, or it could have happened during shipping?

I submitted an RMA online today and haven't heard back. I think it's best I call tomorrow. Hoping I don't get the run around …. to be continued. I will update when I have something to add.

STEAM DOCTOR

I have often seen coils with flats. No idea why. Never had an issue.

HVACNUT

The new coil was stretched out too far, and somebody tried to compress it again.

You got something that somebody else returned.

The new coil DOES need to be stretched. But just a inch or so with a 3 section. This is so the boiler water touches as much coil surface as possible. If the coil is touching the coil, it minimizes heat transfer.

FredoSP

At this point I think it's best I return it and purchase a plate and call it a day. My setup was strange in which the output of the tankless coil would feed a gas water heater. The "cold" inlet to the water heater would be the hot tankless water. I cannot comment on why this was done because no one is alive to ask. We have been using a new Bradford White 40 gal gas water heater for DHW since I started this project. I never really liked the setup because I'm maintaining the low limit all year. Even though the boiler is from 1992, it does not leak and seems to be 80% ish efficient. I pay the oil man to heat the boiler, then pay the gas man to keep my already oil heated water hot, seems like a waste to me, but as I know more I'm starting to question.

FredoSP

Additional info and maybe this is the REAL issue. I reached out to Peerless last week about the thread and pitch of the bolts because I was kicking around the idea of getting studs and nuts. The person that responded did not know the thread or pitch (strange!) but responded with what I pasted below. I know now they are 3/8" x 16 😀

WB-3, Serial # WB 45861-1192 Means 1992 manufacture

That model would have been manufactured by a former company, not our company. Unfortunately, we would have no information to provide. Our company, PB Heat, LLC has manufactured the Peerless® brand since 2003; prior to that date the company who manufactured the Peerless® brand was The Peerless Heater Company who are no longer in business.

Thank you, PB Heat, LLC

HVACNUT

If it's the correct coil plate, then the bolt holes do line up. You'll see with the new coil. They can be hard to catch. You get the first one near the top, then it's like a pendulum. Swing it to catch the others.

And the cold side of the (double) coil usually goes to the inside coil. Hot side obviously from the outer.

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808385#Comment_1808385

I'm just a homeowner but this is exactly what I would do. I have never been able to understand the desire to keep a massive boiler running all summer to heat a few gallons of hot water per day as opposed to any freestanding water heater.

mattmia2

If you use an indirect you can set the boiler up as cold start although if you don't size the indirect to need heating infrequently the losses of heating and cooling the boiler become significant. I'd say the advantage of an indirect is more that you cam get them in stainless than that they are particularly more efficient. Also only one burner to maintain if you only have oil.

ethicalpaul

Also only one burner to maintain (and so much simpler) if you have an electric water heater.

Long Beach Ed

Consider using the plate from the old coil if you have trouble finding a new one that fits properly.

FredoSP

I was contacted today (8/22) by Oswald Supply and they are helping me resolve this with the Peerless team. To be continued.