Energy Kinetics 2000 w/ draft issues - 2 questions

katiebugblue

We have an Energy Kinetics 2000 furnace with a positive draft when it's burning and a negative draft when it's not. The HVAC company tested the draft with the basement door wide open, but it didn't make a difference, so the need for an ERV system has been ruled out. The next step is to remove the new chimney cap (4 independent ones were replaced with one giant cover) and see if the issue resolves and after that the 1/2” sq wire mesh to keep out the bats. However, based on some reading I’ve been doing, it may be that we have already been having milder draft issues prior to the installation of the new cap when there were 4 separate caps (condensation in unusual places and unexpected corrosion).

Two Questions:

1. Is there anything that could be wrong with the EK2000 itself that could be impacting the draft as described? (The HVAC company said it has to be something with the flue.)

2. If it ends up being the cap — how have you seen this problem dealt with successfully? We live somewhere where wildlife is a real problem. Thanks for your help!

jringel

I would be happy to work with you and your service provider to resolve this issue but will need some additional information.

Is the draft going positive over the fire or in the breech? If it is going positive in the breech then it is a chimney related issue as it is going positive after the boiler.

With the unit running what is the chimney draft? It should be a minimum of -.04

Has the boiler been opened up to see if there are any blockages or if it needs to be cleaned? a blockage or if the unit needs to be cleaned can give you a positive pressure overfire draft.

When you say it was tested with the basement door open, was it open to the outside or to the rest of the house? I just want to confirm there isn't anything that would be making the house negative

Is the chimney located on the outside wall of the home or is it an interior chimney? exterior chimneys may require a liner as the will take longer to heat up in the cold weather which could be why you are seeing condensation.

Is the chimney lined and if so what size liner? Our boilers require a liner of no smaller that 5" for an EK-1 and 6" for an EK-2

We are also happy to work with your service provider when they are on site doing any testing. They can contact our tech support team at 1-800-323-2066

katiebugblue

Hi John,

Thank you for your reply! It’s going positive over the fire ( + .03, +.04, + .03, +. 04) and basically neutral in the breech ( 0, -.01, -.015) There is only a negative draft (-.07) when the boiler is turned off. The boiler was cleaned 2 weeks ago when the odor was first a problem and then again last Thursday when the white interior piece was replaced and 4 vents were replaced due to corrosion. The flue from the furnace up through the transition point was checked by the chimney company 2 weeks ago, and they said it was fine.

The door was open to the outside. The chimeny is internal and is 8x12 with a clay liner. The boiler was installed with a 4” pipe to inside the house but then feeds into this larger chimney, which services other fireplaces as well.

Given that it’s a positive over the fire, does that confirm it’s a machine issue? Is there some sort of internal air regulator? I don’t know which version we have, but it was installed 12 years ago.

I put in another call into the company that installed and services the machine but am waiting for a call back. Thank you so much for offering to help trouble shoot!

Jamie Hall

Well now. Let's think about this for a moment. If there is a negative draught, that means that the pressure inside the house — or the breech of the boiler — is less than that in the flue and outside, no? The only way to achieve that condition is that somewhere there is lower pressure in or around the house.

A negative draught on a flue is not a flue or chimney problem (please keep the cap and the bat screens), however something, somewhere, is reducing the air pressure in the basement at the boiler below the air pressure at the top of the flue — and honestly without being there and looking over the entire setup, it would be rather foolish to try to guess what.

Any big fans somewhere?

But I will say again, it's not the flue, nor is it the boiler…

jringel

I don't think its a boiler problem at this time as it looks like your chimney is not generating enough draft to pull through the unit. The chimney should be able to achieve -.05 with a minimum of -.04. I would be curious to see if this improves when you remove the new chimney cap but don't think it will. I would also check for any possible air leaks into the chimney like a cleannout door at the chimney base. To me this looks like you will need to line the chimney. As I said earlier if your service provider comes back to troubleshoot the system feel free to have them reach out to us

Steamhead

@katiebugblue said: "The boiler was installed with a 4” pipe to inside the house but then feeds into this larger chimney, which services other fireplaces as well."

Does the boiler have its own individual chimney flue that goes all the way to the top without serving any fireplaces, stoves etc? It should. If not, this can cause your draft issues.

katiebugblue

Hi Jamie,

Thanks! I’m confused, though, I thought you needed a negative draft to pull the smoke up the flue? No big fans anywhere. Our A/C was added in the attic decades after the house was built and services the main floor and second floor only. I’ve been told it’s a closed system, but it’s been running for the 20 years we’ve been living here w/o this creating this current problem.

katiebugblue

Hi Jim, I thought the draft number when the boiler isn’t running is the measurement of the flu. Is that correct? If so, it’s -.07. Isn’t that better than -.04 if we are looking for a stronger negative draft? Or do I have that backwards?

Thanks again for your help with this!

katiebugblue

Hi All Steamed Up,

Unfortunately, it wasn’t installed with a separate flue. Our chimney company pointed that out and said it could create a sluggish draft, but wouldn’t we have had problems with this before now? (This system was installed 12 years ago.)

jringel

The draft reading with the unit not running is not a measurement of the flue as it is only moving a small volume of gasses. When the unit is running the flue needs to draw enough to accommodate the volume of flue gasses being created. The -001 reading in the flue when the system is operating is a sign that the chimney is unable to move the flue gasses from the boiler to the top of the chimney. Heating systems are designed to operate on a dedicated flue and this problem may have been going on for a while but has now deteriorated to the point where it is affecting the operation of the heating system.

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1806708#Comment_1806708

If there is a damper in a fireplace that was closed that is open now, that could be what caused your problem to crop up now. You still need to fix the root cause and get the appliance in its own flue(or shared with other appliances in the basement but not shared with fireplaces or stoves). At this point it probably would be most cost effective to get a good chimney pro in here, I don't think any competent pro is going to tell you common venting with fireplaces is acceptable.

katiebugblue

Thank you! The company that installed it is coming tomorrow am, so I will be sure to talk about this with them.

katiebugblue

Hi Mattmia,

Agreed. Hopefully, the company that installed it 12 years and ago and has been maintaining it since will take responsibility for not installing it as you describe.

Bob Harper

You must install and operate any EK2K boiler exactly as they prescribe. It's a finely tuned system. That means your chimney must be relined per the mfr. and to NFPA 211.

Draft is just a pressure difference btw the flue gases and the Combustion Appliance Zone (room the boiler is located in). It is not proof of flow. You can have negative draft pressure in the stack with no flow. You have a system that works off positive pressure in the combustion chamber that quickly converts to natural draft in the chimney when installed and operating properly.

Everything begins with a comprehensive inspection of the boiler, the connector and the chimney. A tile lined flue is not a 'lined' flue. Yours is grossly oversized and undoubtedly full of gaps. That may be what's killing your draft btw. Get a proper ss liner. Ensure proper height, clearance from trees or other obstructions. A level II inspection is required on the chimney, which includes internal TV camera, access in the attic, roof top- the whole thing.

Evaluate your connector (stovepipe) per mfr. and code. You want the shortest route with the fewest offsets but broad radius turns where required and sloping uphill towards the chimney breeching.

Have an EK- trained and qualified tech inspect and service the boiler. No shade tree mechanics on these units. Not everything is the same on them compared to other boilers. You have tech support here assisting you so follow their advice.

If you have a CAZ depressurization issue in the basement, opening an exterior door wide open usually fixes it (for illustrative purposes only of course) but not always. If the wind is blowing and that door in the leeward or downwind side, opening the door will hinder- not help. Makeup air is stupid. You may have to resort to a positive pressure MUA system interlocked with the boiler but only if guided and approved by EK.

HTH

katiebugblue

I need to make a major correction — just spoke with my chimney company and each of my fireplaces and the boiler all have separate clay chimneys. Thank goodness!

katiebugblue

Hi Bob,

The company that installed and maintain the system are EK-trained service providers. They are coming tomorrow with a representative of EK to trouble shoot. I will definitely share your concerns with them to make sure every angle is covered. You can imagine how frustrating it is to have an installation done by EK-approved techs and being hearing about some of these issues now (eg the chimney size). So grateful to have this community to help me ask the right questions!

katiebugblue

Hi Bob — one more question — who do I ask to do the Level 2 inspection? EK rep, the EK-approved techs, or the chimney company?

jringel

@katiebugblue , I understand your frustration, although it’s also important to understand that professionals can inspect a chimney and know that it has issues and should be repaired or relined (identifying obvious signs of damage, etc.), but you cannot inspect a masonry chimney and know that it will draft properly.  One reason is because a properly constructed chimney should have a ½” air gap around the outside of the terracotta liner – this makes it a low mass chimney that will heat up quickly that will have the opportunity to develop proper draft.  Without that air gap the entire height of the chimney (which cannot be seen when inspecting), the chimney is more likely to have issues and poor draft.  Since your chimney worked in the past, it was appropriate and adequate at that time.  It may simply have degraded enough that it is no longer performing adequately year round.  Your chimney may also be marginal and not work now, but might work in colder weather when there is a larger temperature difference.  In any case, the boiler does need proper draft for safe venting.

Bob Harper

Any chimney must be suitable for the class of service. This is determined by a level II inspection performed by a 'qualified agency' (usually a chimney professional) according to NFPA 211. You can read it free online, Ch15. A tile lined chimney with a nominal 8"x12" flue was never 'appropriate' though it may have worked sufficiently without killing anyone. Since there was a change in performance, there was a change in the chimney, the boiler, the fuel or the house. Which was it? All?

The reason I'm beating up on TC lined flues is because I know from a lifetime of experience inspecting, relining and rebuilding them they ALL have problems. I've never met a chimney pro that honestly found a single chimney that met the code and stds. 100%. The size of that flue alone is problematic without even knowing its condition. The inspection is merely visual- it does not pressure test the flue under conditions of use. That's impossible. Note the terminology: a 'chimney' is the entire vertical structure. A 'flue' is the actual passageway. You can have one chimney housing a dozen flues. Each must meet the requirement including a separation or wythe wall between flues, etc. etc.

The boiler should be inspected by an EK-trained pro. Done

The interaction btw the house and the chimney is complicated and very few are trained or experienced in that work. It requires an understanding of construction, house physics, fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, etc. then some means of testing. You can get crude information on pressure gradients btw rooms or to outdoors using smoke or a strip of light tissue. Better would be to measure these gradients in Pascals using an expensive manometer. The ultimate would be to get a Blower Door Test with infrared thermography and a Duct Blaster on any forced air ducts. Most energy raters can provide this. It tells you how tight or leaky your house is but they can also perform a Worst Case Depressurization Test which will indicate how little pressure gradient is takes to cause backdrafting of combustion appliances. This becomes a tool to guide mitigation, which may or may not include providing MakeUp Air, how and how much.

Jringel is quite correct about the role of a high mass flue lining and the 1/2-4" airspace btw the outside of the flue tile and the surrounding wythe walls. This allows for thermal expansion, reduces the flue mass so it heats up quicker for a stronger, more stable draft and provides a capillary break from water intrusion. It also insulates the flue liner a little as long as it does not have breaches to the outside air, even though they are technically required (weep holes). The flue must also maintain intact a 5/8" nominal flue thickness for an 8"x8" std. heater flue- yours should be 3/4" thick. That's not just the date it was built but even now. They must have used a medium duty non-water soluble calcium aluminate refractory cement mixture. I've never seen that one in the wild. I could go on. BTW, I'm a certified fireplace and chimney inspector and sit on the national code cmtes. so this is what I do. All this also points to why it is appropriate to reline it with a low mass corrosion resistant stainless-steel chimney liner properly sized and installed in accordance with its UL 1777 listing. That will provide the most reliable, stable draft pressure throughout the year and weather conditions to the extent possible but is not bullet proof. The code also requires it in most places if you know how to read the codes.

You mentioned the door to the CAZ but did not clarify when asked if it leads to outdoors vs. upstairs. Please state which. Then, get a source of smoke or tissue held at the cracked door and describe how high up you have to go before the room air pushes the smoke out. That is your Neutral Pressure Plane on that side of the house at that moment. You want to be neutral or slightly positive. Lower levels can suffer from depressurization. Changes to the house can exacerbate this effect. Are there any new mechanical exhausts? Open windows or hatches upstairs? Forced air ventilation added? Additions or remodeling?

Regardless, get yourself an unlisted low level CO monitor for protection. These are available through pros or online but not locally. The local junk is listed to UL 2034 and provides no protection against poisoning- merely a death alarm.

jringel

Our territory manager visited @katiebugblue 's home with the installing and servicing heating contractor today and reviewed this oilheat installation in detail. To help proof the house from bats and other pests, we found out that the home was inspected and had areas sealed to prevent pest entry which tightened up the building envelope. The single chimney cap design is custom and covers four separate terracotta chimney tops. There were no issues in the home before the pest proofing and chimney cap were installed. There are additional details that are also site specific to the home and chimney, and our territory manager will work closely with the chimney company and @katiebugblue to help resolve the issue.

HVACNUT

Maybe I missed it, but the front of the boiler was opened and inspected? The chamber is fine? The Pacman is fine? EK-1? The 4 inch flue was removed from between the boiler and the chimney base, and there is no obstruction?

There is no draft regulator on the flue, correct? There shouldn't be one.

To be positive draft Over Fire, but 0 (more or less) at the upper breach port, tells me it's inside the boiler. But I've been known to be wrong.

katiebugblue

Yes, it’s an EK-1. The EK rep came with the tech today. The chamber did have to be replaced within the first year (2014) and the insulation was replaced a week ago b/c it was damaged, but the smell has not abated. The EK rep did find the airband was dirty and a “drip back” that needed to be addressed (is the air band in the chamber?), so he had the tech program a “post purge” to run after the boiler runs. There is no draft regulator on the flue (confirmed with the tech today) and the 4 in pipe is actually 5 inches, contrary to what I was told, but is just a feeder into the original furnace’s flue, which much larger than 5 inches. Unbeknownst to us, the flue was not updated with the recommended 5 inch stainless steel sleeve to meet the manufacturer’s installation specifications at the time the EK-1 was installed 12 years ago. Hope I answered all of your questions!

HVACNUT

The air band is on the burner. It shouldn't be dirty if the sound box is on and it takes in screened outdoor combustion air. If was was very dirty, then the fan should be inspected/cleaned as well.

We're they able to take a combustion test?

Not really understanding the chimney situation. It should be 4 inch to the chimney. The boiler chimney is separate from the fireplace. Venting the boiler into an unlined 6 x 6 Terra cotta chimney might not be textbook, but the boiler should draft no problem, if there are no obstructions, the chimney itself isn't compromised, and the burner is set up correctly, i.e. air and fuel pump pressure, for a 0 smoke reading.