Surprise gas line behind wall sconce
Comments
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can you power a line voltage fixture from low voltage POE though? I was under the impression that you need low voltage fixtures specifically made to accept low voltage. From what I’ve seen (limited resi knowledge) there aren’t a whole lot of resi fixtures designed for low voltage
I’m in commercial architecture and I’m just starting to see POE utilized for lighting, it’s been used for security devices for eternity at this point. There’s a lot of union resistance to POE for lighting from what I understand.
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The national electric code says the feed wire must be cut back at least 3 feet if installed before a certain date. I don't have that date memorized but it's in the era of grounded Romex. When I cut into Old bx any distance from a box I find fresh insulation even though it may be asbestos cloth, and it is not yet frayed from handling and exposure to heat from the light fixture. The splice in the added on wire must be in a junction box of course and it will be a steel junction box. However you still don't have a ground. I also happen to know local electricians don't bother cutting the feed wire back 3 ft. And so I express my pet peeve that the electrical shop is very disrespectful to anyone buying electrical supplies who is not a licensed electrician.
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I second @Miringanes comment on older BX. If you investigate any distance at all from the termination in most cases the insulation is in good to excellent condition, and really shouldn't be a cause for concern. And yes, there is usually a bonding strip in it. The jacket will carry the ground, but the bonding strip helps.
Now. That assumes that the jacket is, itself, properly bonded at any junction boxes (which must be metal) and all the way back to the switchgear. Where more recent renovations and "upgrades" have taken place, this may not always be the case — so it is worth checking.
Is it modern code? No. Was it code at the time? Yes. Does it work? Yes. Can you put a three prong grounding socket on it? Yes, but double check the continuity of the bonding (might also check that the hot and neutral are correct, but you do that anyway on any socket… don't you?). Is that code? No. Was it at the time? Yes. If it ain't broke…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
my only thing with the bonding strip in my case is I could’ve sworn they weren’t added to bx until some time in the 50’s and my wiring is circa 1927 or earlier so I’m unsure if this is original bx; I don’t see how they would’ve retrofitted this without ripping the plaster out and re plastering.
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Ther is no National Electric Code requirement to "cut BX back '. That is just a misconception. It may be a good idea but there is no requirement.
The first grounded receptacle appeared in about 1959, Before that receptacles were two wire (hot and neutral no ground)
in 1959 BX (armored cable) was required to include the aluminum strip which helps the BX with grounding and BX since that date is approved for grounding and it still is an approved wiring method.
Prior to 1959 some of the BX did not have the aluminum strip. Some call the earlier BX "rat proof Romex"
There is also older Romex that only contained 2 wires (no ground) although in 46 years of wiring I have never seen it. I have seen plenty of older Romex with the "undersized ground wire" which is #14 Romex that used a #16 ground wire, #12 that used a #14 ground
My house which I sold 4 years ago was built in 1955 and had a mix of BX some with the aluminum strip and some without.
Many of the old wiring methods Knob and Tube, old two wire BX and old two wire Romex you will find what others have said. The wiring is fine when cut back the conductors are like new.
If they have not been overheated in a light fixture or in a hot attic they are usually fine.
It is now approved (and has been for quite some time) to protect these older circuits with a GFCI circuit breaker or receptacle or a combination afci/gfci breaker but it is not a requirement.
Don't forget the national Electric Code is the MINIMUM standard.
If you have an old building there is NO REQUIREMENT to bring old wiring "up to code"
If the wiring was legal when it was installed it is grandfathered. If you remodel and renovate a room you are supposed to bring the wiring for that room up to the code that is in place when the room is renovated. You are not required to bring the whole building up to code.
That being said the is a difference between "what the code requires "and "what you should do"
And as always if the insurance company is not willing to insure the property for any reason they do not have to. They can have their own requirements which the building owner can choose to follow or not but these are not code required in spite of what real estate agents, electrical inspector and insurance people will tell you. They are telling you what they want, not what is code required
Just remember this is a moving target. The "new house" built in 2022 does not meet the current 2023 NEC and there is no requirement tah it has to.
"bring it up to code" is a scare tactic used by many
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This definitely looks like an old gas line. My house was built in 1899. When we redid the electricity, behind each wall sconce, there was an old gas line. I traced all the gas line back down to the basement and all the way up to the attic.
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What isn't code about this? You can connect romex to an existing circuit. If there is a place for a junction box that is accessible you can sometimes cut the bx back to a place where the cloth and rubber insulation is in good condition and splice on new wiring from there. The heat from the light fixture tends to deteriorate the wiring so if there is space to cut the cable back you can sometimes find good wiring to splice on to.
Cloth and rubber insulated wire was replace with vinyl covered wire after wwii so when you find romex or bx with cloth and rubber inner conductors it is during or before wwii
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isn’t replacing the wiring from the switch technically extending the circuit? Always thought you couldn’t extend circuits off of older wiring.
I’m way more familiar with IBC and NYCBC than I am NEC but my quick read was you couldn’t extend (admittedly I didn’t follow the code path all the way through and read exceptions)0 -
You can't extend a circuit without an equipment grounding conductor unless you gfci protect it or add a n equipment grounding conductor but BX the BX is the equipment grounding conductor in this case. (and there are some exceptions for existing 3 wire range and dryer circuits).
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The risk of the BX heating up like a piece of nichrome is probably overblown. You would have to have just the right length so the resistance was low enough for it to heat significantly but not so low that it tripped the overcurrent protection or it was also overfused. It could happen but a whole lot of things would have to go wrong in just the right way all at once.
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BX is still legal for an equipment ground. Just have to make sure any box connectors and clamps are tight.
I don't know of any requirement that you cannot extend any circuit except that extending an existing circuit that is non AFCI (legal without AFCI when installed) must have the entire circuit made AFCI if the extension is more than 6'.
Checking the code book shows that even knob and tube is still a legal wiring method. It also says that an EXISTING knob and tube circuit can be extended.
I agree you SHOULDN't extend a circuit that does not have a ground (knob and tube, ungrounded romex etc.) Should have a GFCI and or AFCI installed although it may not be required.
I have no problem with GFCIs.
AFCIs are another issue. Attics and garages and bathrooms don't require AFCIs.
I guess the wiring in those areas never causes a problem.
The code making panels are drinking the MFGs Kool Aid.
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It's always interesting — and often unintentionally amusing — to watch code writing committees chasing various problems. Which really is what is happening here…
One aspect which seems to have escaped notice is that there is an unintended side issue: the cost of complying with such things as installing an AFCI (or GFCIs or combos) for longer extensions, or requiring them on certain applications can result in no improvements being made to the wiring, on account of excessive cost, particularly when installing one would require changing the switchgear to circuit breakers instead of fuses.
No good deed ever goes unpunished… or something…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Regular single pole breakers are around $8. Combo GFCI/AFCI breaker $58.The electrical code used to be pretty good about not getting to excessive in the past but now……not so much.
I can remember changing out 60 amp fused services in a house to 100 amp with breakers for $500. $200 amp for $1000.
Wire a good sized house in the 80s for 6K
Now you have to install Car charging outlets, A switch or breaker outside the house to kill all the power from the outside, GFCI the clothes dryer, range, condensing unit, in addition to the swimming pool kitchen outlets ,refrigerator disposal dishwasher bathroom crawlspace basement and garage.
AFCI everything except bathrooms, unfinished basements and garage and attics
It's so confusing now it's a wonder the code book is approaching the size of the Boston yellow pages………if they still exist.
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There are always some growing pains in progressing toward the obvious future.
The only place the extra $40/ckt is going to be significant compared to the labor and wire is in simple panelboard replacements. If you're pulling new wire the additional cost is relatively small.
They are likely going more for the cord chafing behind a sofa more than the installed wiring which is why areas with fewer cord and plug connected devices are exempted. The sort of loss of control of sale of non-listed or counterfeit goods is probably a factor here too.0 -
Our electrician came to replace 2 wall sconces … 1924 house. Behind the old fixtures he found….old gas
lines for gas lights. We had no idea the house ever had gas lightingI just ran into a tale of dual lighting:
"It’s all out in the Back Bay. There is a big apartment house .., just off Commonwealth Avenue. …These suites are handsomely, even luxuriously furnished, and are occupied by people who can afford to pay big rents. …. It is a house of every modern improvement, …..It has both the gas and electric systems of lighting. Tenants are at liberty to use either or both."
MYSTERY OF THE SCARLET THREAD by Jacques Futrelle, Dec 1905
Plot involves near-death of a guy who left his gas light going, but also tried a "nightlight" (apparently electric). Another person in the building does die, apparently of gas. (Boston? in 1905, gas was probably a coal-gas and perhaps very noxious.)
FWIW, I thought it was common to hang electric fixtures on gaspipe, and even run wires inside. I have electrical specialties which seem to have no other function. I have not seen it done in the wild; my houses are too new or much too old.
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I don't think you could ever run wire through a gas pipe. But it was common to mount light fixtures on a gas pipe stub.
In the old days the electrician could trace the gas pipe which would make it easier to fish a wire and mount a fixture on the gas pie which was disconnected and abandoned
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I’ve found abandoned gas lines used as conduit. The Rolex on left side was pulled up from basement though a 1/2” iron gas line with 90. That must have be fun 😳 (but much better that opening walls)
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You're not supposed to do that because the inside of the pipe isn't guaranteed to be smooth. That is the difference between plumbing pipe and RMC/IMC. I have read claims that early wiring was pulled inside gas lighting piping and that conduit evolved from there but I have never seen direct evidence.
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1 tiny part at a time!
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I read somewhere (can't remember where) that when they first started using rigid conduit that it started off as regular black pipe.
I have seen old conduit that was not galvanized as well
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Did a job where there were combo fixtures: gas on top, electric below. Gas was still live so we lit them while we had the electric circuit disabled.
As far as I know, rigid conduit evolved from black iron pipe, not by fishing gas lines.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Here is another problem with GFCI. Of course, we are required to put them on 240v appliances like stoves now.
This is not one of my jobs. I copied this from another forum.
"I recently installed a Eaton BR 2P30 GFCI circuit breaker in my clients sub panel for a dual fuel range that was being installed. The circuit breaker began tripping for no apparent reason overnight when the stove was never being used.
Had the customer unplug the range before bed to confirm and sure enough the circuit tripped again overnight. (this is a direct 30a line with nothing else on the circuit)
After this happened I figured it was a problem with the wiring and by now I would have just run a new wire if there wasnt going to be so much drywall work involved.
Went back to troubleshoot and couldn't re create the problem so out of curiosity I put in another Eaton BR 2P30 GFCI with no wires going to it (just the pigtail going to neutral bar).
Sure enough that circuit breaker tripped last night too (not at the same time as the range circuit breaker but before)
Reaching out to see if anyone has had this problem before and how they solved it. I've always been good at troubleshooting but this is a first for me.- Grounds and neutrals separated in sub panel
- Already replaced with another circuit breaker and it did the same thing
- These circuit breakers also have trip codes and it is showing 4 white blinks (meaning it is a ground fault above 30mA)
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Keep in mind that that old gas line coming into the house may still be connected at the street. It can rot out in the future, hopefully under the lawn and not under a porch or inside ash pile. Not a bad idea to someday check with the area's gas utility.
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I see gas lights extremely seldomly. There always dead. One day, decades ago, I turned the arm of the fixture and the hiss of gas immediately followed. It made my day. I promptly put the fixture back to where I found it
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