Pipe locator
Good morning. Need to give quote. Rental house, one apartment on first floor, one apartment on second floor. Basement 100% exposed. Heating system used to be a steam system, has since been converted to hot water. Currently one zone, landlord wants to convert to two zones, one for the first floor, one for the second floor. Challenge is figuring out, which pipe in the basement goes to which radiator. I could always open up piping by the radiators and pour water down. Or drop some marbles in or bang with the hammer or something like that. Would prefer not to do any of the above. Is there any method that can be used to determine which pipe goes to where. Open to all ideas. Thanks in advance.
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Maybe I can hook a compressor to radiator vent tapping and see which pipes in basement have air coming out. Looking not to disturb piping by radiators. Will obviously need to open piping in basement.
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Knock on pipe with wrench and listen in the basement to each via stethoscope?
Empty system, refill, get the water hot and then slowly go one by one bleeding each radiator and feel the piping as you do? No idea if either of these are practical or would work easily.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Do you have one of those magic widgets which are alleged to be able to find studs and pipes and wiring in walls? That might help find where the risers to the second floor are… and then again, might not. I've never gotten mine to really work reliably.
A caution: it is possible that some of the radiators on two floors share one takeoff…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
I gave up on the magic widgets long time ago. Maybe can try with thermal imaging camera.
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Can try the stethoscope. Just not totally fool proof.
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Can try the draining and refilling. Just also not totally foolproof. Always possible for some heat transfer to the unblead pipes.
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Problem with thermal imaging, is that there is always potential for cabinets in the way. I have not taken a good look at this job yet, just the basement.
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Keep the ideas coming
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I guess that I can always hotwire something electric to the radiator, and check for voltage on basement pipes. Not quite sure if my insurance will cover any mishaps 🤣🤣🤣
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put a fish tape up the open pipe and see if you can clearly hear it in an upstairs pipe?
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Thanks. Just hope I can get the fish tape far enough through. Don't know how the bends are. And like Jamie said, hopefully nobody teed off any of the radiators. But that I should be able to check.
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Leave your phone playing a song by the other end and go around and listen. Stethoscope would help there too.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Now that's a suggestion that I can dance to!!! Maybe I will make another thread, about which songs are most appropriate for this application!!
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I'm thinking start with something like ACDC Thunderstruck (stoked) and end with Sade No Ordinary Love (settling down).
I bet it would work in general though as long as the piping is open on both ends.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Seems to me this is the only appropriate song. I will not derail the thread any further.
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How many radiators in the 2 apartments, and how many supply or return pipes can you find in the basement ? Is it currently piped monoflow? Any way to use a continuity tester?
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Toner and banana?
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Is it possible to walk around the first floor and examine where each first floor radiator sits? Maybe draw a floor plan of the first floor with room dimensions noted, add the rads on the plan. First floor windows and any basement windows should be of help to mark the exact location of the rads on the plan for the first floor. Then process of elimination for second floor rads. Assume the pipes from the basement go directly up through the flooring to the first floor rads and not through the stud bays in the outside walls. I have hot water heat (1928) and it was easy to figure out exactly where each rad piping left from the supply and return piping that ran through the basement. First floor was easy, second and third floor took a bit more time to figure out. This helped out my heating contractor a great deal. Then I mapped it all out and posted it in the basement.
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I'm not sure how that system is currently piped but, I did one of these in my youth. It was a direct return parallel design. I left all the second floor radiators connected to the existing supply and return. I disconnected and capped off all the first floor radiators, That left all the second floor radiators connected to the existing system. Then I ran a new supply and return to each of the first floor radiators.
Worked great. All piping was completed in the basement where the radiator risers were visible. Eazy Peazy
Edit: If you have both a first floor and a second floor radiator on a single riser, then you need to cap off the radiator where it meets the riser and drill new holes in the floor for that radiator
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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That's the best suggestion yet and might just work as long as the risers don't feed rads directly above each other. You would have to open up the wall at the first floor rad to cap the tee to the downstairs convector.
I tried to split one of these systems about 30 years ago and failed miserably.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
Don't overthink this. The first floor radiator can be connected to a dual radiator riser and that will not be a problem. just remove the valve from the radiator. Take the valve off the pipe nipple and cap it where you can see it. If you can remove the nipple from the wall easy, then put a shorter nipple with a cap on it back in place of the longer nipple you removed. If you can't do that, then just cap off the pipe nipple where you removed the radiator valve.
Once the second floor system is water tight, move on to the first floor system. Now adjust the radiator position on the floor about 3/4" if needed to accommodate the pipe cap. With the first floor radiator in place, drill new holes strait down to the basement to accommodate the new riser location.
EAZY PEAZY
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said: I tried to split one of these systems about 30 years ago and failed miserably.
I remember doing a 4-plex for a guy. side by side 2 story. But the landlord only purchased 3 new boilers and left the 40+ year old coal conversion with the oil burner for one of the tenants. (Talk about oversized). When the other tenants talked about how their "gas bill isn't so bad". That landlord got an ear-full from the tenant with the oil bill.
The following summer I installed the fourth gas boiler.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thanks for all the great suggestions. I haven't actually made my way out of the basement yet. Went to give a quick look and an estimate. Waiting to hear back from the owner. It's a bit more challenging when first and second floor radiators are directly lined up with each other. Don't know as of yet, whether or not that is the case.
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